Send Yourself an Encouraging Message: High School Edition

[leatherneckpa]

1. Do your senior year in Spain, not Australia. Exposure to a new culture and language will be invaluable.

2. You're a B+ student without doing any homework. Imagine what you could be if you actually WORKED at school.

3. Learn to budget!

 

[BobG]

You all really need to review the Temporal Prime Directive. Sheeeeesh.

The Prime Directive (from which the Temporal Prime Directive originated) was developed by the Vulcans after formation of the Federation. That means we have at least 200 years before any form of Prime Directive exists (lucky for you, since you violated the Temporal Prime Directive by revealing its existence to us over 200 years before its development).

In any event, the Prime Directive applies to people from advanced cultures revealing advanced technologies to a more primitive culture. It may be somewhat legitimate to consider an earlier version of your own culture to be a primitive culture that should be protected under the Prime Directive (as modified into the Temporal Prime Directive), but I think that restricting an individual's right to altering his own past would violate several constitutional rights that haven't yet been incorporated into the Constitution as Amendments 35 and 36. (The exception would be to reveal info about public commodities, such as stock info, lottery numbers, to an earlier version of yourself - hence FayeKane's directive to not include such things as "buy microsoft stock", "buy yahoo", etc. Obviously, that was a weak, weak warning, requiring substantial punishment.)

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The Prime Directive (from which the Temporal Prime Directive originated) was developed by the Vulcans after formation of the Federation. That means we have at least 200 years before any form of Prime Directive exists (lucky for you, since you violated the Temporal Prime Directive by revealing its existence to us over 200 years before its development).

The importance of timeline preservation was first recognized first by Spock, and then James Kirk, in 1930, when Kirk refused to prevent Edith Keeler's death. [Again we find that we have a Vulcan to thank for recognizing the potential for disaster.] Witnesses were aware of this selfless act and have lobbied succesfully and in secret for timeline preservation ever since. The first official mention of the Temporal Prime Directive was in 2368, by Jean-Luc Picard, in what will be an alternate timeline.

In any event, the Prime Directive applies to people from advanced cultures revealing advanced technologies to a more primitive culture. It may be somewhat legitimate to consider an earlier version of your own culture to be a primitive culture that should be protected under the Prime Directive (as modified into the Temporal Prime Directive), but I think that restricting an individual's right to altering his own past would violate several constitutional rights that haven't yet been incorporated into the Constitution as Amendments 35 and 36. (The exception would be to reveal info about public commodities, such as stock info, lottery numbers, to an earlier version of yourself - hence FayeKane's directive to not include such things as "buy microsoft stock", "buy yahoo", etc. Obviously, that was a weak, weak warning, requiring substantial punishment.)

All Starfleet personnel are strictly forbidden from directly interfering with historical events and are required to maintain the timeline

The 42nd Ammendment to the Constitution will state that the Temporal Prime Directive applies to all people of the world, in all times, retroactively.

 

[Loren Booda]

Decline firmly to smoke pot.

 

[BobG]

The importance of timeline preservation was first recognized first by Spock, and then James Kirk, in 1930, when Kirk refused to prevent Edith Keeler's death. [Again we find that we have a Vulcan to thank for recognizing the potential for disaster.] Witnesses were aware of this selfless act and have lobbied succesfully and in secret for timeline preservation ever since. The first official mention of the Temporal Prime Directive was in 2368, by Jean-Luc Picard, in what will be an alternate timeline.

The fact that there were witnesses that were aware of that selfless act, combined with the witnesses actually acting on what they witnessed just proves the Temporal Prime Directive is nothing more than a paper tiger. If time travel exists, irreversible interference into the past becomes unavoidable.

In fact, thanks to Spock's and the Romulan Nero's interference into the future past, the Jean-Luc Picard timeline may not even exist in any viable future anymore. Spock may have returned things as close as possible to their original state, but both Kirk and Spock have had their young adult years changed in the ways that change them ever so slightly from the characters they were in the original series.

Either altering the past creates a butterfly effect where minor changes become amplified by time and we have to wait for a whole new series of TV series and movies to find out what happens, or there's a "pressure" that makes a certain stream of reality more likely regardless of small deviations one way or the other, in which case the original series, TNG, etc all still apply. (If the latter, then those suggesting they wouldn't listen to a message from their future selves are probably the more realistic of us.)

Edit: The latter being a more natural and desirable state was the premise of Isaac Asimov's "The End of Eternity" (about the only time travel book I've ever really liked). One always had to be very careful to keep any changes to the time line to a bare minimum or else risk having the change spiral out of control into a whole new unpredictable future. By the way, this is supposed to be made into a http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118002742.html?categoryid=1237&cs=1 .

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The fact that there were witnesses that were aware of that selfless act, combined with the witnesses actually acting on what they witnessed just proves the Temporal Prime Directive is nothing more than a paper tiger.

Not at all because the witnesses were from 1930. Their actions may change Kirks history, but our future timeline is not yet determined except when viewed from the absolute frame of reference known as cinema.

If time travel exists, irreversible interference into the past becomes unavoidable.

Only if the TPD is not observed.

In fact, thanks to Spock's and the Romulan Nero's interference into the future past, the Jean-Luc Picard timeline may not even exist in any viable future anymore. Spock may have returned things as close as possible to their original state, but both Kirk and Spock have had their young adult years changed in the ways that change them ever so slightly from the characters they were in the original series.

Not yet... Talk to me in about a century.

Either altering the past creates a butterfly effect where minor changes become amplified by time and we have to wait for a whole new series of TV series and movies to find out what happens, or there's a "pressure" that makes a certain stream of reality more likely regardless of small deviations one way or the other, in which case the original series, TNG, etc all still apply. (If the latter, then those suggesting they wouldn't listen to a message from their future selves are probably the more realistic of us.)

Edit: The latter being a more natural and desirable state was the premise of Isaac Asimov's "The End of Eternity" (about the only time travel book I've ever really liked). One always had to be very careful to keep any changes to the time line to a bare minimum or else risk having the change spiral out of control into a whole new unpredictable future. By the way, this is supposed to be made into a http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118002742.html?categoryid=1237&cs=1 .

One of my favorite thought experiments from physics is described by Igor Novikov, in The Future of Spacetime. He describe a game of billiards in which a ball entering a certain pocket will enter a time machine, and then emerge in such a way that it interferes with its own path so as to prevent the ball from entering the pocket first place. Were the ball's path changed so that it misses the pocket, we would have a paradox. But it is found that while the ball may be deflected by its future self, it cannot be deflected enough to miss the pocket. THAT is an amazing result, even for a thought experiment.

 

[BobG]

The fact that there were witnesses that were aware of that selfless act, combined with the witnesses actually acting on what they witnessed just proves the Temporal Prime Directive is nothing more than a paper tiger.

Not at all because the witnesses were from 1930. Their actions may change Kirks history, but our future timeline is not yet determined except when viewed from the absolute frame of reference known as cinema.

If time travel exists, irreversible interference into the past becomes unavoidable.

Only if the TPD is not observed.

Now wait a minute. We're talking about cinema - where all sorts of strange physics are known to happen (bullets coming in contact with human flesh emit incredibly large pulses of gravitational attraction towards the nearest window, etc). It's absolutely inevitable that at least one character in a movie will alter time, often times leaving the viewer to ponder what the inevitable effect will be. In fact, the "City on the Edge of Forever" episode you referenced starts out with McCoy altering the past, leaving a portion of his crew stranded at the time machine since the Enterprise no longer exists (how the crew managed to wind up on a distant planet instead of serving fries in spite of their means of conveyance and employment being obliterated from history is one of those unresolved time travel mysteries of cinema).

In fact, I think a time travel paradox is a requirement for a time travel movie to even come into existence.

One of my favorite thought experiments from physics is described by Igor Novikov, in The Future of Spacetime. He describe a game of billiards in which a ball entering a certain pocket will enter a time machine, and then emerge in such a way that it interferes with its own path so as to prevent the ball from entering the pocket first place. Were the ball's path changed so that it misses the pocket, we would have a paradox. But it is found that while the ball may be deflected by its future self, it cannot be deflected enough to miss the pocket. THAT is an amazing result, even for a thought experiment.

Why? Just saying that is one way out of a paradox, but it would be more interesting if he'd at least suggest some reason the paradox is avoided. Conservation of momentum across temporal dimensions would be kind of an interesting avenue to explore as a thought experiment - especially since the entire Earth, the Solar System, and the Galaxy are screaming through space at incredibly high speeds, so real time travel would require a substantially large change in position as well as time.

 

[DaveC426913]

...especially since the entire Earth, the Solar System, and the Galaxy are screaming through space at incredibly high speeds...

Relative to what?

It's not just a spurious question. One can deduce that, regardless of how the time travel might or might not work, we cannot escape the conservation of momentum issue and have to deal with it somehow.

 

[ideasrule]

Just on the keyboard or onto the computer, itself.

I did it on a laptop. The laptop mostly survived, but part of the screen got busted.

 

[ideasrule]

Alright, I'll flat-out contradict just about everybody here:

1) Don't work so hard; get a life.
2) If things seem bad now, they'll be worse.
3) Take risks. If you die, it doesn't matter; you'll die anyways.
4) What? Have I made you depressed already?

 

[BobG]

Relative to what?

It's not just a spurious question. One can deduce that, regardless of how the time travel might or might not work, we cannot escape the conservation of momentum issue and have to deal with it somehow.

Actual motion winds up being a curved trajectory with angular momentum conserved. The instantaneous momentum vector is a straight line vector in only 3 dimensions. I'm not knocking Novikov's idea - I just think there was some real room to play with that concept, in a book at least, since there's going to be some real problems if you divorce an object from physical space (and the other masses causing the curved motion) in order for it to travel through time.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Now wait a minute. We're talking about cinema - where all sorts of strange physics are known to happen (bullets coming in contact with human flesh emit incredibly large pulses of gravitational attraction towards the nearest window, etc). It's absolutely inevitable that at least one character in a movie will alter time, often times leaving the viewer to ponder what the inevitable effect will be. In fact, the "City on the Edge of Forever" episode you referenced starts out with McCoy altering the past, leaving a portion of his crew stranded at the time machine since the Enterprise no longer exists (how the crew managed to wind up on a distant planet instead of serving fries in spite of their means of conveyance and employment being obliterated from history is one of those unresolved time travel mysteries of cinema).

Well, McCoy's misadventure was an accident. It is also well known to those familiar with the cinema frame that all violations of the TPD become a tv episode or movie, and all other temporal escapades go unnoticed.

Note however that tampering with history has been my objection to this thread all along.

In fact, I think a time travel paradox is a requirement for a time travel movie to even come into existence.

Which agrees with my statement above. However, the origins of the TPD can be traced back to those who witnessed Kirk's selfless act, so the TPD is in itself a temporal paradox.

Why? Just saying that is one way out of a paradox, but it would be more interesting if he'd at least suggest some reason the paradox is avoided.

Novikov refers to rigorous calculations first discovered by Kip Thorne. [p.78]

I checked just to be sure.

 

[sunata]

Decline firmly to smoke pot.

Don't mean to go off-topic, but would you mind elaborating as to why?

 

[DaveC426913]

Don't mean to go off-topic, but would you mind elaborating as to why?

This is on topic. That is a message Loren would back to his/her/it self (it is not intended for anyone else). We can deduce that, in Loren's personal life, the pot-smoking years were not the most conducive to his/her/its success.

 

[sunata]

This is on topic. That is a message Loren would back to his/her/it self (it is not intended for anyone else). We can deduce that, in Loren's personal life, the pot-smoking years were not the most conducive to his/her/its success.

Alright, but I'm interested in an explanation as to why, specifically, those years were not the most conducive to his/her/its success.

 

[Edgardo]

1) Drink chocolate milk every day.

2) Learn to play the piano.

3) Read "Thinking Mathematically" by John Mason.

 

[Loren Booda]

Alright, but I'm interested in an explanation as to why, specifically, those years were not the most conducive to his/her/its success.

At first (9th grade), pot seemed to help me displace my anxiety, gave me a social group, provided me with an identity, and amuse myself with mind effects. My buddies and I smoked morning, noon, afternoon and night. To pay for the stuff, we sold it. Unbelievably, I earned almost straight As, wrestled and rowed, created a unique math proof (which you can see at the website below), and was considered a leader of many circles at my school. I was encouraged to toke by most students and faculty.

I matriculated at Yale, where I found myself addicted to pot, socially inept, introduced to harder drugs, and eventually psychotic (which state marijuana has been found to exacerbate). I had average grades, but upon giving up pot in my sophomore year I could not concentrate, felt overwhelmingly paranoid and projected my thoughts upon others. (I had taken LSD during freshman finals - a very crazy thing to do, although I believed the stuff might improve my "thinking," otherwise just an underlying depression). I had to drop out of Yale.

I would give up the wild, hazy times in high school by declining firmly to smoke pot. All of this time I was looking for love. Today, 25+ years after quitting pot, I have stabilized my thinking and emotions, and have a great relationship. I cannot endorse substance abuse, and with my above response I was merely wishing to avoid some pain.

By the way, I'm a guy.

 

[sportsstar469]

Go buy that PS3.

Don't pour water on your computer just to see what happens.

That argon is cheap and you can make plenty of sodium with it. Buy it!

you would tell yourself to buy a ps3 lol? can't you do that now? and for much cheaper than it used to be? to each his own iguess ;)

 

[DaveC426913]

Alright, but I'm interested in an explanation as to why, specifically, those years were not the most conducive to his/her/its success.

If Loren answers anything other than "I can't remember" then s/he's a liar...

 

[Winzer]

1) Don't be so lazy

2) Try to engage in social interaction more

3) Don't be so shy to the girls!

 

[Galteeth]

At first (9th grade), pot seemed to help me displace my anxiety, gave me a social group, provided me with an identity, and amuse myself with mind effects. My buddies and I smoked morning, noon, afternoon and night. To pay for the stuff, we sold it. Unbelievably, I earned almost straight As, wrestled and rowed, created a unique math proof (which you can see at the website below), and was considered a leader of many circles at my school. I was encouraged to toke by most students and faculty.

I matriculated at Yale, where I found myself addicted to pot, socially inept, introduced to harder drugs, and eventually psychotic (which state marijuana has been found to exacerbate). I had average grades, but upon giving up pot in my sophomore year I could not concentrate, felt overwhelmingly paranoid and projected my thoughts upon others. (I had taken LSD during freshman finals - a very crazy thing to do, although I believed the stuff might improve my "thinking," otherwise just an underlying depression). I had to drop out of Yale.

I would give up the wild, hazy times in high school by declining firmly to smoke pot. All of this time I was looking for love. Today, 25+ years after quitting pot, I have stabilized my thinking and emotions, and have a great relationship. I cannot endorse substance abuse, and with my above response I was merely wishing to avoid some pain.

By the way, I'm a guy.

Lets' remember though that human lives are very subject to chaotic effects. I use to think about this quite a bit. I first smoked pot when I was thirteen. I never got into it, but if I had first tried it at a later time, who knows?

This applies in general to the idea of sending a message from the future to yourself. I imagine if it were somehow possible the results would be completely unpredictable. The person you are now is informed by everything you've experienced up to this point, including your "mistakes."

On a slightly different point, it's interesting that many people talk about not wasting time when they were younger. I have always had a complex view on this point, since I think that certain kinds of subjective experiences are more enjoyable when you're younger. People tend to retroactively think of their values informed by their current modal preferences and impose this "superior" point of view on the young. But the experience of "just hanging out with friends" can be infinitely more rich and rewarding at say the age of fourteen then such an experience is to a forty year old.

There is no absolute objective measure. Many people think the preferences of those who are older are better because they are "more informed" but this not so much a function of information as subjective quality. Since death is the ultimate outcome of life, a better measure of quality of experience is some balance between present subjective state and future utility.
Whereas taking heroin is probably a bad idea since it has clear future negative utility, the right balance between say, how much of your time at fourteen was spent studying versus engaing in social activities is less clear.

 

[FayeKane]

That argon is cheap and you can make plenty of sodium with it.

Uhh... how do you make sodium from argon?

-- faye, back from being banned for not being dainty and polite enough

 

[Dadface]

Welcome back faye.Are you telling me that you can't make sodium from argon!?
Bang goes another theory.

 

[magpies]

Ok let's see...

1. Don't worry about other people so much focus on your own efforts.
2. Think about the beginning of the universe in relation to the future.
3. This message is from the future so the chances are its sender is dumber then you.

 

[blue bloom]

"you will be the best as always Lama..your dreams are going to be truth very soon ..& work hard for the eleventh year exams because you will be sick & won't study well .."

 

[DaveC426913]

OK, I've got a corollary question now:

If you were to receive a message right now from your future, what would it probably be?
.
.

 

[DaveC426913]

Uhh... how do you make sodium from argon?

He didn't say from argon, he said with argon.

 

[Lancelot59]

Don't drop your soap. The dispenser will break.

 

[lisab]

OK, I've got a corollary question now:

If you were to receive a message right now from your future, what would it probably be?
.
.

It would be either "Do it" or "Don't do it." And I would know exactly what I'm talking about.

 

[Alfi]

Dear 1969 Alfi

You're going to be ME in about 40 years.
I am quite pleased with me, so ... carry on

Thank me
2009 Alfi

 

[SticksandStones]

"Stop being lazy. PS your parents have severe mental issues, stop listening to them as if they know what they're talking about. Get a job regardless of what they say. Your grades won't suffer and you know it."

 

[zcd]

Go to https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=341033 after September 28, 2009. You can send a message back to yourself.

 

[Galteeth]

Go to https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=341033 after September 28, 2009. You can send a message back to yourself.

 

[magpies]

Good news... You are master of the universe.
Bad news... By you I ment me. have fun in your dimensional jail cell.

 

[SELFMADE]

Oh man, I don't know where to start. **** will go down hard, my friend. It'll be tough. I wish you could just stop thinking so highly of yourself. Stay with mom and dad, it is unbearable I know but the alternative is worse. Just swallow your pride and reconcile with dad, think of all the good moments and forget the bad. You need to do your part now! Its way worse otherwise, believe me. Nobody gives a **** about you, remember how your self-centrism pulled you back all your life. Nobody gives a **** about you. Stop living in a fuking fairy land, stop being a kitty, BE A MAN.