Should religion be a subject of criticism?

[LightbulbSun]

I was talking to someone not that long ago, and he was telling me that atheism is such a narrow target, that religious people need to make false connections between atheism and nihilism, relativism, anarchism etc. just to even debate anything. This is why the Stalin, Pol Pot nonsense keeps getting brought up. People need to understand the terms before they post a steaming pile of ****.

 

[Proton Soup]

You really want to throw out that stupid falsehood? How many times does this have to be thoroughly debunked?

once more apparently. learn me something.

 

[LowlyPion]

... these guys killed millions of their own in the name of ideologies that embrace atheism..

They weren't doing anything ideological. They were simply suppressing dissent and consolidating power.

 

[LightbulbSun]

once more apparently. learn me something.

How about the fact that the church actually supported Stalin, and that these dictators in general were sociopaths and followed their own pseudo-religion? Unless you want to suggest atheists= sociopaths?

 

[out of whack]

Even if we were to assume that atrocities were committed in the name of atheism, a far fetched stance, what does it have to do with sheltering religions from criticism?

 

[LightbulbSun]

i'm not saying anything about atheists. look above.

Oh, ok. So when you threw in atheism when talking about Stalin and Pol Pot that indicated nothing, right?

don't be dense. you're advocating an ideology.

Point to the dogma atheists subscribe to. Atheism simply means "a disbelief in a God or Gods." Everyone is an atheist. Christians are atheists when it comes to the other gods, Muslims are atheists when it comes to the other Gods etc. That's all atheism is and will ever be. The only way you can attack it is if you make false connections between atheism and nihilism or some other ideology.

 

[Evo]

i think Ivan is right, you are a snarky 16-year-old. the thing is, governments kill more people than religion. Joe Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, these guys killed millions of their own in the name of ideologies that embrace atheism.

Ivan was wrong for posting that insult, don't make the same mistake.

I'm busy, but there will be some clean up later. And infractions. Just a warning to everyone.

Also, people don't rally behind a non-belief, so saying they killed in the name of atheism is ridiculous. They were evil men driven by hatred, greed and a lust for power.

 

[kasse]

I forget the quote but someone once said "to get a good person to commit evil, it takes religion."

“With or without [religion] you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion.”

Steven Weinberg

 

[LightbulbSun]

Exactly nothing. So let's stop feeding the troll, or I'm afraid the thread will be locked very soon.

I sure hope it isn't because I think people's misconceptions about atheism need to be cleared up. I had to listen to Christopher Hitchen's brother yesterday say some pretty ignorant things such as "the only way we can do good is by believing in a higher power." I mean come on, people are actually convinced by these petty arguments?

 

[kasse]

Also, people don't rally behind a non-belief, so saying the killed in the name of atheism is ridiculous. They were evil men driven by hatred and greed.

Are you sure they didn't kill in the name of disbelief in the Tooth Fairy?

 

[Math Is Hard]

I wouldn't use the word evil (a word that I find rather religious). They believe that they do God's will, and that WE are the evil ones.

Evil or not, there are people whose convictions are so dangerous that we may be right to kill them. At least stop them from getting weapons of mass destruction in their hands.

You want to KILL religious people?

 

[edward]

You want to KILL religious people?

Only the evil ones.

 

[Evo]

oh my GOD! are you actually saying that it's not religion that is the problem?! that people just SUCK??!

THAT"S FRIGGIN UNBELIEVEABLE MAN! IT CAN"T POSSIBLY BE TRUE!

Can the attitude, it is a fact that people have gone to war and killed and enslaved in the name of some God. Please do not play ignorant.

And you have been warned to straighten up. Infractions are next.

 

[kasse]

I sure hope it isn't because I think people's misconceptions about atheism need to be cleared up. I had to listen to Christopher Hitchen's brother yesterday say some pretty ignorant things such as "the only way we can do good is by believing in a higher power." I mean come on, people are actually convinced by these petty arguments?

I saw the debate Hitchens vs Hitchens. How come these two guys grew up in the same home?

 

[Evo]

You want to KILL religious people?

I wanted to watch a tv show in peace. Ok, now I'm here.

Clean up on isle 10.

 

[LightbulbSun]

Can the attitude, it is a fact that people have gone to war and killed and enslaved in the name of some God. Please do not play ignorant.

And you have been warned to straighten up. Infractions are next.

Ah, Evo the voice of reason.

 

[LightbulbSun]

I saw the debate Hitchens vs Hitchens. How come these two guys grew up in the same home?

I don't know, but it's no surprise that Peter Hitchens still writes for The Daily Mail. I laughed when the moderator said both were free thinkers. Only the elder can be considered a free thinker.

He got so damn whiny once religion and God came up. Christopher destroyed him and all he could do was take a potshot and strut back to his seat. Pathetic.

 

[Proton Soup]

Can the attitude, it is a fact that people have gone to war and killed and enslaved in the name of some God. Please do not play ignorant.

And you have been warned to straighten up. Infractions are next.

i'm normally very calm. just answering sarcasm and ridicule with the same. i don't think you're being completely impartial here. you've got a guy, kasse, saying he thinks it's a good idea to kill some people that don't believe the way he wants and makes a lot of statements in ridicule of those people.

 

[LightbulbSun]

Proton, I've noticed you haven't answered my reply yet.

 

[kasse]

I don't know, but it's no surprise that Peter Hitchens still writes for The Daily Mail. I laughed when the moderator said both were free thinkers. Only the elder can be considered a free thinker.

He got so damn whiny once religion and God came up. Christopher destroyed him and all he could do was take a potshot and strut back to his seat. Pathetic.

I loved it when they switched topic to God, and Christopher were given 10 minutes: "Well, I don't think it's going to take 10 minutes to disprove a being like God..."

 

[Proton Soup]

Proton, I've noticed you haven't answered my reply yet.

i'll reply, by PM if necessary because of thread closure, just point me to the question.

 

[LightbulbSun]

I loved it when they switched topic to God, and Christopher were given 10 minutes: "Well, I don't think it's going to take 10 minutes to disprove a being like God..."

The thing I like about his rebuttals is that instead of doing the routine, "is there evidence for it?" he outlines the implications of people wanting to believe in such a deity.

A celestial North Korea. At least you can f'n die and get out of North Korea!

 

[CRGreathouse]

With that logic, we protect the specific religions from criticism. A few flame wars may be necessary to get rid of this phenomenon. Why aren't we afraid of political flame wars? Scientific flame wars?

Most of the stable forums I've been to ban discussion of religion and politics for just that reason: to avoid the flame wars that come along. PF has managed not to get into too many political flame wars despite allowing discussion by having a remarkable lack of political pluralism.

 

[LightbulbSun]

i'll reply, by PM if necessary because of thread closure, just point me to the question.

No, please post it here. Reply to this post:

Point to the dogma atheists subscribe to. Atheism simply means "a disbelief in a God or Gods." Everyone is an atheist. Christians are atheists when it comes to the other gods, Muslims are atheists when it comes to the other Gods etc. That's all atheism is and will ever be. The only way you can attack it is if you make false connections between atheism and nihilism or some other ideology.

 

[Evo]

I'm cleaning up, it's not easy to prune a thread and still have it make sense.

If you guys don't act civil, now, I will have no choice but to lock this.

 

[LightbulbSun]

Most of the stable forums I've been to ban discussion of religion and politics for just that reason: to avoid the flame wars that come along. PF has managed not to get into too many political flame wars despite allowing discussion by having a remarkable lack of political pluralism.

But where can you discuss these things if everyone fears a flame war? I've seen quite a few forums hold some serious political and religious discussions.

 

[Evo]

i'm normally very calm. just answering sarcasm and ridicule with the same. i don't think you're being completely impartial here. you've got a guy, kasse, saying he thinks it's a good idea to kill some people that don't believe the way he wants and makes a lot of statements in ridicule of those people.

I'm taking care of that.

Anyone see the reason that we don't allow these discussions?

 

[LightbulbSun]

Anyone see the reason that we don't allow these discussions?

I honestly don't. Outside of Proton, I don't see much of a flame war going on here. Locking up threads could be partially the reason why none of these misconceptions ever get cleared up. Proton apparently didn't understand why atheism was responsible for Stalin and Pol Pot was false.

 

[Proton Soup]

No, please post it here. Reply to this post:

no, i think i was saying that kasse is promoting an ideology in this thread. maybe he's not a true atheist. but if ideology is the word that offends you, then maybe agenda is a better word. and the agenda seems to be silencing people and singling out others for annihilation. he was quite explicit about this.

fwiw, i know and like some atheists, and i don't blame atheists or atheism for great tragedies in the world, such as i mentioned. but it's a way of making a point. and that is that it's not religion or even atheism that is to blame. religion and/or ideology are often used as an EXCUSE by some to achieve those grisly ends, but they're not the cause.

 

[kasse]

Anyone see the reason that we don't allow these discussions?

You're letting the religulous ones win. They try to avoid discussions by trolling all threads like this.

 

[LightbulbSun]

no, i think i was saying that kasse is promoting an ideology in this thread. maybe he's not a true atheist. but if ideology is the word that offends you, then maybe agenda is a better word. and the agenda seems to be silencing people and singling out others for annihilation. he was quite explicit about this.

Again, point to the atheist agenda. You can't because there is none.

fwiw, i know and like some atheists, and i don't blame atheists or atheism for great tragedies in the world, such as i mentioned. but it's a way of making a point. and that is that it's not religion or even atheism that is to blame. religion and/or ideology are often used as an EXCUSE by some to achieve those grisly ends, but they're not the cause.

Religion has been the cause of wars before. Can you point to atheism being the cause of a single war?

Obviously a world without religion does not quell the violence. People still hold to political and economic ideologies, and wars over resources are also very likely to occur. But a world without religion would be one less vice.

 

[Proton Soup]

Again, point to the atheist agenda. You can't because there is none.



Religion has been the cause of wars before. Can you point to atheism being the cause of a single war?

Obviously a world without religion does not quell the violence. People still hold to political and economic ideologies, and wars over resources are also very likely to occur. But a world without religion would be one less vice.

i'm not talking about atheist agendas, you are.

and i don't understand the drum you want to beat, so let's consider communism again. does or does not communism advocate atheism?

 

[kasse]

I'm happy to see that critical thinking and criticism of religion is on a rise. In London there's an advertisement campaign starting in Janyary. Lots of buses will drive around in the city center with the slogan "There's probably no god. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life".

http://www.atheistcampaign.org

 

[rbj]

I think the current development is scary, in particular in Europe, where everything is done to avoid offending muslims.

i don't think that is true at all.

there are several newspapers in Holland that specifically reprinted those political cartoons depicting Mohammed (with bombs in his turbin) and in France, they passed a law prohibiting females from wearing the headscarf (the hijab) covering in public schools. in England, there was a definite suspicion of persons that appeared as or were believed to be muslim which set the stage for that non-muslim brazilian guy to be shot in the head point-blank in the subway because the cop thought he was a suicide bomber.

sorry, i just don't agree with your premise.

 

[LightbulbSun]

i'm not talking about atheist agendas, you are.

and i don't understand the drum you want to beat, so let's consider communism again. does or does not communism advocate atheism?

Communism has nothing to do with atheism.

Ok, we obviously need some definitions here:

Communism: A theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members.

Atheism: A disbelief in a God or Gods.

Now point to the connection. There is none. It's a false connection you're trying to make just like people want to falsely connect atheism with nihilism or atheism with anarchism.