SpaceX Starship development: fifth flight, captures booster

[gleem]

Thirteen Years of Florida SpaceX launches is a one-minute video.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/web...64419d520a54ed4ae808218c1c4bb3e&ei=96#details

 

[mfb]

Doesn't load for me, but with ~200 launches it must be a mess.
Here is a 4 minute video. It's already very busy, and it doesn't include most of 2023. SLC-40 in particular (the farther launch site in the video) launches like it's a train schedule this year, every 4-5 days unless the weather is bad or it has to hit a launch window. September 16, September 20, September 24, September 30, October 5, October 13, with plans to launch October 17, 21 and 26.

 

[gleem]

here is another link to this video

 

[gleem]

SpaceX is chomping at the bit to launch Starship. SpaceX VP William Gerstemaier is to meet with Senators Wednesday to urge streamlining of the FAA review process and increasing their staff to me the increasing cadence of launches. https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2023/10/17/spacex-congress-licenses-faa-starship/

 

[mfb]

SpaceX battles regulatory process that could hold up Starship test flight for months

How can it take months to determine if dumping water into water harms the environment significantly? Stop all rainfall until we investigated its environmental impact (we expect an initial review in 2028)!

 

[mfb]

Static fire with ship 26
It doesn't have a heat shield so it's unclear if it will ever fly. If the second flight (with ship 25) reaches orbit then they might skip 26 and directly use ship 28 to work on reentry. Ship 27, which was similar to 26, has been scrapped already.

 

[mfb]

The Fish and Wildlife Service said they "do not expect to take the full amount of time", i.e. the 135 days they have at most (which would end in early March). That sounds like they plan to use most of it.
They also confirmed they were consulted to evaluate the water deluge system.

That's not even the most absurd part. The FWS only gets involved when FAA asks it, which only happens for launches. SpaceX has already used the deluge system, both as a standalone test and as operational system for a static fire test. They can use the deluge system as often as they want without FWS having anything to say about it - as long as they don't release the holddown clamps on the rocket. If they do that then suddenly FWS needs to check if the water affects a fish. If they keep delaying a launch then it's likely SpaceX will keep doing ground tests, which means they might use the deluge system more often than they would if they could launch.

 

[bob012345]

The Fish and Wildlife Service said they "do not expect to take the full amount of time", i.e. the 135 days they have at most (which would end in early March). That sounds like they plan to use most of it.
They also confirmed they were consulted to evaluate the water deluge system.

That's not even the most absurd part. The FWS only gets involved when FAA asks it, which only happens for launches. SpaceX has already used the deluge system, both as a standalone test and as operational system for a static fire test. They can use the deluge system as often as they want without FWS having anything to say about it - as long as they don't release the holddown clamps on the rocket. If they do that then suddenly FWS needs to check if the water affects a fish. If they keep delaying a launch then it's likely SpaceX will keep doing ground tests, which means they might use the deluge system more often than they would if they could launch.

FWS indeed. SpaceX should make a deal with Cuba where they might actually have more freedom to operate.

 

[Haborix]

FWS indeed. SpaceX should make a deal with Cuba where they might actually have more freedom to operate.

The U.S. government might really have something to say about THAT, hahaha.

 

[bob012345]

The U.S. government might really have something to say about THAT, hahaha.

Why? Would they threaten to nationalize SpaceX? What could they really do if SpaceX moved launch operations to another country?

 

[Haborix]

Why? Would they threaten to nationalize SpaceX? What could they really do if SpaceX moved launch operations to another country?

Oh, I don't know... Maybe, not award certain government contracts? Also, see here for a taste of the amount of regulations related to Cuba that already exist.

 

[bob012345]

Oh, I don't know... Maybe, not award certain government contracts? Also, see here for a taste of the amount of regulations related to Cuba that already exist.

SpaceX might refuse to shuttle crews to the ISS in return. NASA can crawl back to the Russians.

 

[Haborix]

Part of me would be very entertained to watch SpaceX try that, and Musk is crazy enough to try. But I like the work SpaceX does, so I hope they don't go down the path of self-annihilation.

 

[bob012345]

Part of me would be very entertained to watch SpaceX try that, and Musk is crazy enough to try. But I like the work SpaceX does, so I hope they don't go down the path of self-annihilation.

Cuba was meant as tongue in cheek but the U.S really should be more grateful to SpaceX rather than making things harder for them with nonsense regulations and holdups.

 

[Rive]

Would they threaten to nationalize SpaceX?

May happen.
With Starlink too.
It's unlikely that things would be at that point already - I think such inconveniences can be considered just as a mild warning at most: that things going smoothly is not a given.

Previously Musk had some quirky ideas about terms and services in politically and militarily sensitive situations, and I guess many important people is not really happy that 'critical infrastructure' can have ideas and personal agendas.

The matter contains many-many (forbidden) politics.

 

[Haborix]

There are no magic wands in the legal world. But for the government, being able to invoke national security comes awful close to a magic wand for doing anything they want to do.

 

[berkeman]

The FWS only gets involved when FAA asks it, which only happens for launches. SpaceX has already used the deluge system, both as a standalone test and as operational system for a static fire test. They can use the deluge system as often as they want without FWS having anything to say about it - as long as they don't release the holddown clamps on the rocket. If they do that then suddenly FWS needs to check if the water affects a fish. If they keep delaying a launch then it's likely SpaceX will keep doing ground tests, which means they might use the deluge system more often than they would if they could launch.

That's interesting. Is the deluge system used in the same way for the tests as for the launches? Does the water flow to the ocean in both cases in the same amount and with the same $\Delta T$? If so, that would mean there is plenty of data already to show whether it affects the ecosystem that the water is flowing into, no? So that should help (or hurt, depending on that data) the approvals for launches.

 

[mfb]

Previously Musk had some quirky ideas about terms and services in politically and militarily sensitive situations, and I guess many important people is not really happy that 'critical infrastructure' can have ideas and personal agendas.

If you think of Crimea: Ukraine asked SpaceX to do something that would almost certainly have violated US laws, SpaceX refused. Journalists made up all sort of nonsense about it.

Is the deluge system used in the same way for the tests as for the launches?

No official confirmation and of course we haven't seen it in a launch yet, but it's expected to be similar. It might be running a bit longer during an actual launch.

FWS employees have been at Starbase to look at the system, but the environmental impact is so small that it would be difficult to see anything. How do you verify experimentally that the risk to harm one fish is below 1% per use?

This 1% is not a random number, it's actually the level of impact the bureaucrats are measuring. Here is an evaluation for a Starship reentry near Hawaii for example. Among other things, FAA and SpaceX worked together to evaluate the sound levels for "permanent (hearing) threshold shift (PTS)" and "temporary (hearing) threshold shift (TTS)" for different species. Table 2 informs us that e.g. the expected number of affected loggerhead turtles is 0.001779 (PTS) and 0.007082 (TTS).

 

[.Scott]

That's interesting. Is the deluge system used in the same way for the tests as for the launches? Does the water flow to the ocean in both cases in the same amount and with the same $\Delta T$? If so, that would mean there is plenty of data already to show whether it affects the ecosystem that the water is flowing into, no? So that should help (or hurt, depending on that data) the approvals for launches.

Actually, there will be more water used in an actual launch. But we can still make things easy for the FWS.

During a launch, Elon expects to dump about 1 acre feet of fresh water in 40 seconds. A huge portion of that is expected to evaporate - but let's say it doesn't. Looking at video of the last launch, the diameter of the flame area (that quickly became engulfed in the sand/dust area) was about 800 feet. So the direct effect of those flames fully engulfs some of the fuel and oxygen pressure tanks that are positioned just beyond 200 feet of the launch tower (per Google Maps). From that 800 radius, we get about 3 acres that I think we can argue can't be of much concern to the FWS because it will suffer biologically annihilated on every launch.

So we are talking about putting about 4 inches of fresh water onto 3 acres. For Texas, and except for that meteorologically minuscule 3-acre area, this would be the equivalent of a heavy but quite common rain storm. Now certainly this "industrial waste water" will contain some contaminants - with all that super-efficient methane burning, it'll be a bit carbonated. But so is rainwater.

So I don't think the FWS has to look very far for relevant data on the effects the starship deluge will have on those parts of the ecosystem they are interested in.

 

[mfb]

"It happens naturally, too" is not enough to approve something.

No launch date yet but there are indications that it could come soon.
The safety review has concluded - covering the risk to humans and human properties, but not the environmental review.
A usually well-informed source says no earlier than a few days after November 6
Everyday Astronaut is traveling to Texas to prepare the stream.

Edit: FAA confirms SpaceX has implemented all corrective actions.

Edit2: Christian Davenport: "From what I’m hearing, a Nov. 6 SpaceX Starship launch date is off the table. But work continues and an attempt this month is still very much on the table as SpaceX and the FAA work closely together. The meeting with Elon and FAA officials last month was “cordial” and productive."

 

[.Scott]

"It happens naturally, too" is not enough to approve something.

It's not enough to approve, but it provides information about the environmental consequences. So it should help the FWS come to a quick decision.

 

[mfb]

Flight Termination System (FTS) explosives are installed

This is the last planned step of people working directly on the rocket. It only needs to be done a few days ahead of a launch attempt, and there is no reason to do it earlier. SpaceX must expect an imminent launch approval - likely this week or the latest next week.

Various notices to airplanes and ships have been issued for the 15th and the following days. That looks like the day for a first launch attempt.

 

[mfb]

First time SpaceX announced a date:

Starship preparing to launch as early as November 17, pending final regulatory approval → http://spacex.com/launches

With new video:

 

[.Scott]

The NASA SpaceFlight live video is now showing a countdown to the NET (No Earlier Than) launch time.
It is currently reading -139:21 (Friday morning).

It also reports "Launch license pending".

 

[mfb]

SpaceX on Twitter: Watch Starship's Second Flight Test
It's scheduled for Friday 12:29 UTC. The NSF countdown points to 13:00 UTC (5 days and 4:40 after this post). Half an hour of SpaceX coverage before the flight wouldn't surprise me so these times make sense.

In principle there is no lead time for the license - it has to come before takeoff, that is all. More realistically, we might see a license at some point from Monday to Thursday followed by a launch attempt Friday morning.

 

[PeroK]

The NASA SpaceFlight live video is now showing a countdown to the NET (No Earlier Than) launch time.
It is currently reading -139:21 (Friday morning).

It also reports "Launch license pending".

Note that, mathematically, NET corresponds to the half-open interval $[T, +\infty)$ for some time $T$, for the time until launch.

 

[.Scott]

Note that, mathematically, NET corresponds to the half-open interval $[T, +\infty)$ for some time $T$, for the time until launch.

Not precisely.
The full set is not any $(-\infty,+\infty)$ but, any $(-\infty,+\infty) \vee never$. So the specified "NET" set is better expressed as $\neg (-\infty,T)$ for some time $T$.

 

[mfb]

NOTAM (temporary flight restriction) has been issued
13:00 UTC to 15:39 UTC
That's starting 7 am local time, so we should get great sunrise pictures (6:47) as the rocket is getting prepared for launch.

There is also a larger time range in the flight plan, 13:00 to 17:20. Saturday and Sunday are backup dates, same time.

 

[.Scott]

The weather forecasts for Boca Chica on Friday is spectacular - with light winds, sunny skies, and moderate temperatures all day. So Friday appears to be in the hands (or pens) of the Fish and Wildlife Service.

 

[mfb]

FWS is done. Addendum to the October 2021 Biological Assessment for the SpaceX Starship-Super Heavy Launch Vehicle Program at the SpaceX Boca Chica Launch Site in Cameron County, Texas Addressing Operation of a Deluge System

No changes to the impact evaluation for any studied species, the tricolored bat was added with a low impact.

An average summertime thunderstorm at Boca Chica would deposit more water over the landscape than any single or all combined activations of the deluge system. Brownsville receives about 27 inches of rain a year on average. The operation of the deluge system and detonation suppression system combined at its maximum discharge amount might add the equivalent of 0.001 inches of rain over the 723-acre deluge impact area approximately two times per month on average.

The launch license could come at any time.

Edit: Looks like the link is broken now. It still worked when I posted the comment.

 

[.Scott]

Apparently, SpaceX was pretty confident about getting the FWS go-ahead very soon.
According to AWAI (6:30 into the video), SpaceX installed the Flight Termination System (FTS) on November 9. It was installed in a safe mode - but still, no one wants to handle explosive charges more often than need be.

 

[berkeman]

It was installed in a safe mode

Sorry, what does that mean? Just curious.

 

[.Scott]

Sorry, what does that mean? Just curious.

It means that, before launch, workers will still need to visit the device to arm it.
By visit, I mean they need to be at the device and physically modify it.

 

[berkeman]

Ah, pull the pin, effectively...

 

[mfb]

Launch license granted
Let's go.

The launch window opens in 1 day and 8 hours.