Terraforming Mars by using Europa

[mfb]

Why would you launch this with rockets? There are better ways to get huge amounts of matter into orbit or beyond. They are not worth the investment today, but with larger demand they would be built.

 

[stefan r]

Getting several billion tonnes of water off of Earth would require several billion tonnes of rocket fuel, and a fleet of rockets numbering several thousands.

Would be impressive rocket if it can lift a million tons. Space shuttle could launch almost 4 tons to GEO. The shuttle program launch 134 times.

Lifting water off Earth is much harder than Ceres, Europa or a lot of comets.

Pluto-Charon may have been demoted from planet status but there is lots of water and nitrogen.

 

[Bizmuth]

Terraforming Mars is useless until a magnetic shield to protect it from the Sun and it's effects are in place... much better than slamming a Jupiter satellite onto Mars which is an engineering feat we could never do.

https://www.space.com/31044-mars-terraforming-nasa-maven-mission.html

https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddar...otect-astronauts-from-space-radiation-on-mars

Has anyone ever come up with an even semi-plausible method of restarting Mars' magnetic field?

 

[rootone]

Has anyone ever come up with an even semi-plausible method of restarting Mars' magnetic field?

Assuming we understand the mechanism for Earth's magnetic field correctly, the method would need to create something similar for Mars..
That is we would need to liquify the core then spin it up.
It doesn't break any laws of physics but the amount of energy involved would be enormous, and certainly well beyond any present technology.

 

[Jon Richfield]

Most of these ideas seem to require more advanced technology than we have today and some don't have the practicality to actually work, like rail guns, you'd need quite a lot of rail guns shooting 10 KG of ice to warm and make Mars wet again...
...

Why couldn't we just build a machine that freezes salt water from our oceans and a rail gun that shoots this frozen salt water? We could actually have a use for our ocean water that mostly gets unused, much more practical than shooting ice from Europa

IMO when terraforming Mars (as opposed to more promising options like Venus and Mercury say, or colonising spacecraft or asteroids) is discussed, religious rage takes over where rationality leaves off.

All quite unnecessary really; freezing water from Earth's oceans and shooting the ice to Mars indeed! As someone pointed out, pointed out, parts of Mars have large quantities of brine, even in comparison to some parts of the Atacama desert. All the colonists need do is install a few open-cast frozen-brine mines and power generators, and brine desalination plants, and Robert is your mother's brother. Of course, grabbing a bit of H2, NH3, and CH4 from Jupiter and various moons would be equally easy.

Mars will be ours, and flushing green around our colonial cities.

Or something...

 

[Bizmuth]

Assuming we understand the mechanism for Earth's magnetic field correctly, the method would need to create something similar for Mars..
That is we would need to liquify the core then spin it up.
It doesn't break any laws of physics but the amount of energy involved would be enormous, and certainly well beyond any present technology.

Looking at the earlier suggestion to put a superconducting ring around Mars -- would that not gradually heat the core through hysteresis, for instance? Granted, the time scale would be ridiculous. But maybe multiple lines of attack? Superconductiong ring providing inductive heating, plus H-bombs dropped down a deep shaft, plus microwave energy being beamed to the poles and used in some kind of either heating or further induction...

I'm just spitballing, and I freely admit I haven't a clue.

 

[mfb]

The global thermonuclear arsenal is about 6*10¹⁸ J (number from here), divided by the mass of Mars we get 10 µJ/kg. If you somehow manage to heat 10% of Mars only you get 0.1 mJ/kg. Utterly negligible.

As comparison: It is about the energy Mars receives as sunlight every 10 seconds.

 

[stefan r]

Looking at the earlier suggestion to put a superconducting ring around Mars -- would that not gradually heat the core through hysteresis, for instance? Granted, the time scale would be ridiculous. But maybe multiple lines of attack? Superconductiong ring providing inductive heating, plus H-bombs dropped down a deep shaft, plus microwave energy being beamed to the poles and used in some kind of either heating or further induction...

I'm just spitballing, and I freely admit I haven't a clue.

If you build huge superconducting rings why would you heat Mars' core? Would already be a huge magnet.

The only reason to bother with the magnet is to avoid some of the ionizing radiation. Detonating nuclear bombs is not a way to reduce exposure to ionizing radiation.

Microwaves are usually considered safe radiation but microwaves do not penetrate. You will only get convective flow if the inside is hotter than the outside.

 

[Sharky1]

I like the idea of sending some of Earth's ocean water to Mars. I'm not sure about railguns and the like though.
I assume by the time we are ready for anything even remotely close to this we should have an operating space tether/elevator.
Could it even be possible in the future to siphon the ocean water up through the middle of a space tether and send it on to Mars from there? Once in space and frozen you could then shoot it to Mars however you like.
Probably need multiple space tethers to keep the weight down too.

 

[stefan r]

...
Could it even be possible in the future to siphon the ocean water up through the middle of a space tether and send it on to Mars from there? Once in space and frozen you could then shoot it to Mars however you like.
Probably need multiple space tethers to keep the weight down too.

Hydrogen is much lighter than water. Methane is also lighter and can easily be converted to water on other planets. I have doubts about the friction on 40 million meters of pipe. One large pipe will transport more fluid without bursting. A space tether pipe material would have to be much stronger than a space tether material because internal pressure adds stress.

Materials that exist could build an elevator on Europa, Ceres, or a bridge from Pluto to Charon.

You might like the space fountain idea. If hydrogen ions or molecules are the particle stream then you could collect some in space instead of sending them back down.

 

[Tryannosaurus]

I like the idea of sending some of Earth's ocean water to Mars. I'm not sure about railguns and the like though.
I assume by the time we are ready for anything even remotely close to this we should have an operating space tether/elevator.
Could it even be possible in the future to siphon the ocean water up through the middle of a space tether and send it on to Mars from there? Once in space and frozen you could then shoot it to Mars however you like.
Probably need multiple space tethers to keep the weight down too.

Finally someone who understands me, by the time we got through political trouble and annoyances on Earth, we'd most likely have the technology to have a space elevator sort of contraption or a way to siphon water up to a planetary space station or at least a Moon base, firing frozen water from the Moon is MUCH easier than from Earth due to the Moon having negligible, but building a space tether to Mars may be out of reach for quite a while, that's not counting it being worth it or not, by the time the construction was completed we'd probably have been able to cover Mars with water

But why terraform Mars when even if it had water would still be relatively uninhabitable? I mean if Mars lost its magnetic field once, who's to say it will lose it again once we resort it? Unless we made the magnetic field nearly as strong as Earth's, the magnetic field would most likely be lost. Also the fact that Mar's atmosphere is basically carbon dioxide might make it a little hard to breath in don't you think?

 

[mfb]

We cannot restore the magnetic field of Mars. We don't have to do so either.

Also the fact that Mar's atmosphere is basically carbon dioxide might make it a little hard to breath in don't you think?

Getting some oxygen into the atmosphere is easier than large amounts of water.

 

[stefan r]

...by the time we got through political trouble and annoyances on Earth, we'd most likely have the technology to have a space elevator sort of contraption or a way to siphon water up to a planetary space station

I believe the space elevator is a materials science problem. What political opposition do you know of?

...firing frozen water from the Moon is MUCH easier than from Earth due to the Moon having negligible, but ...

Water is in short supply on the moon. Highly unlikely that any lunar water will be fired to Mars. It is possible that rockets traveling to Mars will burn fuel collected on the moon. Rocket fuel would not add any water to Mars' surface.

If you mean lifting water from Earth to the Moon and then relaunching to Mars then no it is not easier. A direct shot would be much lower energy. Flying past the moon for a gravity assist could help.

a space tether to Mars may be out of reach for quite a while, that's not counting it being worth it or not, by the time the construction was completed we'd probably have been able to cover Mars with water

The mass of a Mars skyhook attached to Phobos would be much lower than the mass of an ocean. A cubic kilometer of water would not be an ocean. A million tons of water compared to 10,000 tons of materials. Most of the material for the Phobos skyhook could be acquired on Mars and likely on Phobos.

...
But why terraform Mars when even if it had water would still be relatively uninhabitable? I mean if Mars lost its magnetic field once, who's to say it will lose it again once we resort it? Unless we made the magnetic field nearly as strong as Earth's, the magnetic field would most likely be lost. Also the fact that Mar's atmosphere is basically carbon dioxide might make it a little hard to breath in don't you think?

Removing the CO2 would be much easier than bringing in Nitrogen. The pressure is less than 1% of Earth's atmosphere. Ejecting carbon into space from Mars would be the same energy scale as escaping Jupiter's gravity from Europa. Depositing coal would be much lower energy and mechanically easier. Overall may be more than 1000x less effort. Terraforming would also include adding plants which need the CO₂ so removing would be counter productive.

Of course Europa is short on Nitrogen. But we can repeat this nonsense using Titan instead.

 

[mfb]

Phobos has a mass of 10¹⁶ kg. You are fine with moving that to a significantly higher orbit (and probably moving Deimos as well, another 1.5*10¹⁵ kg), but you are worried about 10¹² kg for a cubic kilometer of water?

10¹⁶ kg of water, corresponding to the mass of Phobos, could give Mars a uniform 7 cm layer of water. Or many reasonably sized lakes in many interesting places.

 

[stefan r]

Phobos has a mass of 10¹⁶ kg. You are fine with moving that to a significantly higher orbit (and probably moving Deimos as well, another 1.5*10¹⁵ kg), but you are worried about 10¹² kg for a cubic kilometer of water?

10¹⁶ kg of water, corresponding to the mass of Phobos, could give Mars a uniform 7 cm layer of water. Or many reasonably sized lakes in many interesting places.

My first thought when I read that was "I said skyhook not elevator". A skyhook hanging off of Phobos does not require any moving of Phobos.

Then I looked at the numbers. Going from Phobos to Deimos takes 745 m/s delta v. I believe that figure includes take off and landing. Is also overkill for anything in between including geosynchronous (areosynchronous?) . Delta V launching from Earth's surface to low Earth orbit is around 9,000 m/s.
9000/745 = 12

Tsoilkovsky rocket equation:
Δv = v_exh ln(m₀/m_f)
or
m0/mf=e^(Δv/v)
To get 12 times the delta V the mass ratio needs to increase by e¹² which = 1.7 x 10⁵ So order of magnitude estimate the 1 km³ of water takes 10x more fuel even if just moving to LEO. The starting mass and final mass need to include rocket engines and tanks which could be worse for the water lift. Phobos is not made out of rocket fuel so it is not that simple. But if you have a large cable you can catapult material and plug it into the Tsoilkovsky equation.

Maybe you could also use a tether to catch and de-orbit the ice from Europa. I am inclined toward thinking Phobos is well placed right where it is now. :)

 

[Beaugeard F]

Is it possible (theory and faisable?) to set a metallic magnet on one of the moon of Mars and by the simultaneous rotations to create a dynamo effect, then a magnetic field (to protect the atmosphere)?

 

[stefan r]

Is it possible (theory and faisable?) to set a metallic magnet on one of the moon of Mars and by the simultaneous rotations to create a dynamo effect, then a magnetic field (to protect the atmosphere)?

Magnetic fields redirect solar wind. A magnet on Phobos would direct particles into Mars during part of its orbit.
This article talks about a magnet at Lagrange point 1. The Lagrange point 1 is always on the sunny side of Mars so the magnetosheath would not hit the atmosphere.

 

[MikeeMiracle]

Mars is 1/4 the size of Earth so you have 1/4 of the gravity roughly speaking. Anyone considering what physical effect will that have on any settlers?

They will lose muscle mass, maybe grow to be taller, legs will not be as muscular so they would struggle to walk if they ever came back to Earth. Anyone born over there almost certainly would not be able to walk on Earth. Imagine trying to walk now if you weighed 4 times more then you currently do. Less sunlight also means less Vitamin D creation so we would need suppliments just to survive. Anyone living on Mars would speciate over time differently than the rest of us on Earth. We would in effect, become the Martians of sci-fi legend :)

There are many other issues apart from saying "let's just teraform and go live on Mars."

 

[sophiecentaur]

They could make a serious effort at Terraforming Earth before they start on anywhere else. Humans just shouldn't be trusted with the sort of powerful tools they have these days.

 

[stefan r]

They could make a serious effort at Terraforming Earth before they start on anywhere else. Humans just shouldn't be trusted with the sort of powerful tools they have these days.

I would not trust anyone tampering with Earth's climate. Tampering with Mars' or Venus' climate is safely "not in anyone's backyard". Most of the reasons to oppose breeder reactors and nuclear reprocessing dissappear if we are talking about a complex near Copernicus crater. It should be fine to try Jurassic Park in an O'Neil cylinder.

Geoengineering may be necessary. There are reason to use extreme caution.

 

[sophiecentaur]

They’ve been tampering with our climate for at least a hundred years. Look where it’s got us. There are too many variables and the delay in any of the feedback loops is too long for us to cope. I think it relates to the ‘evolved’ Life span which is around 40 years.
The Egyptians, Victorians and Romans seemed to have better long term ideas than modern people, despite the life span approaching 100 years. Strange. The four or five year cycle of governments may have taken over as the step size in time.
Populating other planets with ‘colonies’ is something for the very distant future, if at all, I think.

 

[PAllen]

How about just try an approach possible in the moderately distant future and see what happens. Specifically, launch all nuclear weapons on Earth to be detonated evenly on mars, melting ice caps and having various unpredictable results. Observe from a distance till radiation dies down. Success in terraforming would be unlikely, but think of the benefits for Earth ...

 

[davenn]

Is it possible (theory and faisable?) to set a metallic magnet on one of the moon of Mars and by the simultaneous rotations to create a dynamo effect, then a magnetic field (to protect the atmosphere)?

No it isn't ... you were told that and the reasons why in the other thread