The Slippery Slope of Assisted Suicide: Offending the Disabled Community

[russ_watters]

But Russ, in true PF fashion I have to take what you said out of context, and argue against you for 10 pages.

How can you support eating dead babies?

I love this place, but sometimes it leaves me shaking my head.

In an engineering ethics class in college, I did a debate on GM food (I was pro). My partner was not a very strong debater and I had to help him prepare. When we stood up for the debate, my highly opinionated prof (loved that guy) told us he thought our topic was absurd, even before we got started. I had to argue with him against GM food before he would let us start our debate, before he would accept it as a real controversy!

 

[russ_watters]

Non-dogmatic arguments, please.

There is nothing dogmatic about that argument. The logic of it is too simple to even bother explaining. And that's also the flaw: it is simplistic.

I'm not seeing anyone else in here giving the OP what he asked for. Here's another one:

Suicide is usually considered to be the act of a desperate and sick (mentally) individual (partly because of what I said before - that life is precious). If that is true, then there can never be such a thing as a rationally decided upon suicide.


One of the problems with many highly opinionated people - and this is true on this forum and elsewhere - is that holding a good debate (heck, even having an informed opinion!) requires understanding the opinions of the people you are debating as they see the issues. Too many people on this forum hear the argument statement and have no capacity for seeing it through the eyes of the person they are debating. It leaves them incapable of fully processing those opinions and giving a reasoned response.

 

[rootX]

I'm not seeing anyone else in here giving the OP what he asked for. Here's another one:

I think OP title is misleading (or I just failed to see what he was looking for) in which he asks for opinions and then in the post wants only arguments that are against euthanasia:

Euthanasia - yes or no?

I struggle to find arguments against euthanasia. Can anyone help me?

I don't have any strong arguments against euthanasia and neither I see any in this thread. Only argument I can think of involves human bonds or emotions. Say one's partner get a serious illness in his/her old age that cannot be cured, whether the partner chooses euthanasia voluntarily or involuntarily, the other person wouldn't like that idea assuming that he/she is strongly emotionally attached to his partner.

 

[ExactlySolved]

I don't know where you are getting these bizarre ideas that euthanasia is used because of a self-esteem problem.

Maybe you didn't see the quotes I posted:

Janet Good of the Hemlock Society puts it this way: "Pain is not the main reason we want to die. It's the indignity. It's the inability to get out of bed or get to the toilet, let alone drive a car or shop without another's help.” A Honolulu attorney and member of the Governor’s Blue Ribbon Committee on Death with Dignity said on KHET in 1996 that he was not afraid of dying, but he was afraid of “being in diapers and being dependent on others.”

The Hemlock Society and Death with Dignity are two organizations that politically support assisted suicide. While I grant that these are just particular statements, the excerpt as a whole is from a scholarly article by a writer in the disability rights movement. I have spent approximately 50-100 hours researching this issue under guidance of the expert professors I mentioned earlier, and I am not making these arguments up.

You are very misguided about the adequacy of medications for treating certain types of pain too. When referring to euthanasia, one is not usually talking about someone who can be pain free with medication, we're usually talking about someone who is in constant, extreme pain with no hope of a cure (i.e., a patient with cancer that is not responding to any treatment).

Unfortunately you're wrong, assisted suicide is not usually used in cases of extreme pain:

The reports from Oregon of legalized assisted suicide for
the year 2002 show that pain is not the primary reason for want-
ing to die—It’s not even in the top three. Reports were solicted
from physicians of the people who had requested assisted suicide
about which of six reasons might have contributed to the request.
The reported reasons were “losing autonomy (84%), de-
creasing ability to participate in activities that make life enjoy-
able (84%), and losing control of bodily functions (47%)”(Oregon
Department of Human Services, 2003). George Eighmey, exec-
utive director of the assisted-suicide advocacy group Compas-
sion in Dying of Oregon,makes it clear that disability phobia is
the primary cause for death wishes. “The No. 1 reason given to
me is: ‘I don’t want to have anyone wipe my rear end’ (Rob-
eznieks, 2003).”

The quote comes from a scholarly article:

"Our Lives and Ideologies: The Effect of Life Experience on the Perceived Morality of the Policy of Physician-Assisted Suicide" (Ron Amundson and Gayle Taira), Journal of Disability Policy Studies 16, 2005, 53-57."

The link to the statistics themselves:

http://www.oregon.gov/DHS/ph/pas/index.shtml#concerns

From the state of Oregon's own report:

"As in previous years, the most frequently mentioned end-of-life concerns were: loss of autonomy (95%), decreasing ability to participate in activities that made life enjoyable (92%), and loss of dignity (92%). During 2008, more participants were concerned about loss of dignity than in previous years (82%)."

Attention: if you think that the primary reason for physician assisted suicide is pain, then you have just been proven wrong: pain is not even mentioned in the state of oregon's report on physician-assisted suicide. I hope your able to face the truth that this supposed reason for suicide is not even in the top 3, and maybe you might believe that this is because, as I have been saying, we are pretty good at controlling pain.

The image of a terminal cancer patient suffering in great pain sounds convincing, until you look at the statistics for yourself (the 2008 report on physician-assisted suicide in the oregon.gov link I provided) and see that pain is not even mentioned as a reason for requesting suicide, that once again, according to the government's own report on the 60 people to whom they administered death in 2008 the reasons were:

loss of autonomy (95%),
decreasing ability to participate in activities that made life enjoyable (92%),
and loss of dignity (92%)

 

[kasse]

There is nothing dogmatic about that argument. The logic of it is too simple to even bother explaining.

Life isn't always precious. That argument is religious, and against the forum guidelines.

 

[Alfi]

Re: Euthanasia - yes or no?

Yes. I want the right to choose, and I don't want laws to penalize my family if I do choose.
Life insurance policies may need to be adjusted.

 

[ExactlySolved]

I want the right to choose, and I don't want laws to penalize my family if I do choose.

'Right to choose arguments' often disguise discrimination e.g. "Shouldn't you have the right to choose who lives in your neighborhood?" sounds good until you realize that this has been used to gain support for discriminating against minorities. Similarly, "Shouldn't you be able to choose to commit suicide?" sounds good until you find yourself in a situation where other people consider your life to be suicide-worthy.

Sure, you might say, but a decision to commit suicide affects mostly myself, and besides that only my family. OK, but if you support legislation that allows people in certain conditions to kill themselves then you are saying those lives are not, or might not be (pending a 'decision'), worth living. Recent victims of physical catastrophes are very perceptive to their lives being unwanted, I know because I have read their stories, of pushy doctors with do-not-resucitate orders or candid nurses that say things as frank as "I don't know if I could keep living if I were you." Do you see how the choice is not completely free? This goes back to Russ' point about a suicidal person being not in their right mind; I won't go that far (and ultimately I defer to Aristotle who said that suicide is justified in some cases), but it is clear to me that modern assisted suicide is a choice that is not made in a vacuum, it is influenced by societies attitude towards people with these conditions, and if our attitude is super-negative then no wonder these people want to die?

 

[ExactlySolved]

I presume everyone on this forum is interested in the truth, so I just want to make it clear that these statements, although I consider each of them to be totally ethically correct, have very little to do with the reality of what patients are receiving physician assisted suicide.

In other words, suppose that I agree that someone in constant and extreme pain should be euthanized. The important thing to note is that this sentiment is irrelevant to the reality of assisted suicide, most assisted suicies are not commited over pain but over dignity, and no one should support the political issue without realizing who is actually killing themselves and why.

So a struggling painful life, which involve anything from physical pain that disables you from thinking or multiple seizures per day, is precious?

on the other hand for some one in constant pain i would leave the decision to them.

You and your buddy are soldiers in a war zone, your buddy gets splinters from a grenade (or a bullet) into his abdomen, rupturing his intestines, with all the goo oozing out, infecting everything.

There are a broad range of physical problems a person can have that can result in them living in a lifetime of constant pain.

When referring to euthanasia, one is not usually talking about someone who can be pain free with medication, we're usually talking about someone who is in constant, extreme pain with no hope of a cure (i.e., a patient with cancer that is not responding to any treatment).

State of Oregon, 60 assisted suicides in 2008, I am not spinning the numbers in any way, self-reported reasons for death:

loss of autonomy (95%),
decreasing ability to participate in activities that made life enjoyable (92%),
and loss of dignity (92%)

http://www.oregon.gov/DHS/ph/pas/index.shtml#concerns

 

[f95toli]

and no one should support the political issue without realizing who is actually killing themselves and why.

But WHEN it should be allowed is a separate discussion. The "pain" scenario is useful simply because most of use can imagine reaching a point where we given a choice between extreme pain during our last few days and euthanasia would choose the latter.

When it should be allowed (or to be more specific: under which circumstances should a doctor get involved) is a difficult question and is worth discussing at some length; but it is a discussion that is only meaningful it those involved agree that there are certain cases where euthanasia should be allowed. Those who oppose euthanasia tend to do so unconditionally (usually because of religious reasons) which makes constructive dialogue very difficult.

Personally I can imagine several scenarios where I would prefer it even if I could technically go on living for a long time; e.g if I knew I was slipping into severe dementia (something that has happened to several members of my family) or for some other reason was losing my intellectual abilities. To some extent this is simply because I define "myself" via my intellect; my body without my mind wouldn't be me, so from my point of view I would already be dead.
Now, do I think this is one scenario where it should be legal? I am not sure, but it is something worth considering.

Also, I am not that familiar with the legislation in Oregon; but as far as I know it still only applies to terminally ill patients. Hence, the fact that they state that the reason is "loss of dignity" presumably only means that they prefer to die while they still have some control over their life. The point is that it is not a question of if they are going to die, it is a question of when.

 

[phyzmatix]

That argument is religious, and against the forum guidelines.

Whaaaaat?

 

[phyzmatix]

Personally I can imagine several scenarios where I would prefer it even if I could technically go on living for a long time; e.g if I knew I was slipping into severe dementia (something that has happened to several members of my family) or for some other reason was losing my intellectual abilities. To some extent this is simply because I define "myself" via my intellect; my body without my mind wouldn't be me, so from my point of view I would already be dead.

I've been struggling with phrasing my own opinion on this matter, but I think you've done a bloody good job of it.

This sums up exactly how I feel about it.

 

[ExactlySolved]

But WHEN it should be allowed is a separate discussion. The "pain" scenario is useful simply because most of use can imagine reaching a point where we given a choice between extreme pain during our last few days and euthanasia would choose the latter.

As a political matter 'when it should be allowed' or 'scenarios that we can imagine' are less important then the real life consequences of the laws that already exist. I am talking about what's going on right now, not about what should be going on. In particular, I am pointing out that most individuals who choose state-endorsed suicide do so for dignity reasons, not for pain-related reasons as most of the members in the thread seem to have thought.

but it is a discussion that is only meaningful it those involved agree that there are certain cases where euthanasia should be allowed. Those who oppose euthanasia tend to do so unconditionally (usually because of religious reasons) which makes constructive dialogue very difficult.

The question is not whether euthanasia should be allowed, but whether it should be legal and state endorsed. There is a very big difference: it is relatively easy and common for elderly, disabled, or terminally ill patients to take there own lifes by overdosing on medications. This occurs all the time without anyone being prosecuted (don't believe me? check the alt.suicide newsgroup archives for information and stories for/from terminally ill patients).

If that were the case, you might say, why would there be a political issue at all?

If you have that question, then I will offer an analogy. Many states in the union still have laws against unbiblical sex acts, targeting gays in particular, and yet gays are able to do these things in private without fear of reprocussion. Does it make sense that they would still want to change the law to legalize their activities? Whether you believe it or not, the case with physician assisted suicide is quite similar, just do the research.

Therefore, while suicide is justified in some instances, I don't believe the state should ever endorse it, because to do so would be an act of discrimination against those people with lives that are deemed suicide-worthy.

Personally I can imagine several scenarios where I would prefer it even if I could technically go on living for a long time; e.g if I knew I was slipping into severe dementia (something that has happened to several members of my family) or for some other reason was losing my intellectual abilities. To some extent this is simply because I define "myself" via my intellect; my body without my mind wouldn't be me, so from my point of view I would already be dead.

I've been struggling with phrasing my own opinion on this matter, but I think you've done a bloody good job of it.

Since loss of dignity is the main reason that people request death from their doctors, it makes sense that a loss of mental function, which is stigmatized more than the loss of any other bodily function, would be a very common reason for requesting death, even more so for physicists/mathematicians/academics.

I don't think there is anything undignified about even a total loss of mental function, or more precisely, I don't see any reason to pass judgement of such a condition as being undignified. If you insist on passing such a judgement on yourself should you acquire such a condition, this is just a form of making exuses for giving up. I find that willpower is a much better judge of someones wisdom than are their superficial mental attributes.

 

[Gokul43201]

Since loss of dignity is the main reason that people request death from their doctors, it makes sense that a loss of mental function, which is stigmatized more than the loss of any other bodily function, would be a very common reason for requesting death, even more so for physicists/mathematicians/academics.

I don't think there is anything undignified about even a total loss of mental function, or more precisely, I don't see any reason to pass judgement of such a condition as being undignified. If you insist on passing such a judgement on yourself should you acquire such a condition, this is just a form of making exuses for giving up. I find that willpower is a much better judge of someones wisdom than are their superficial mental attributes.

You just didn't understand f95's post. His decision about the value of his life is not determined by social mores or stigmas but by his own individual valuation.

My choosing to terminate my life has noting to do with societal perceptions. I couldn't give a rat's *** what society thinks about me. And I see absolutely no loss of dignity in losing my mental abilities, nor do I care if other people find a loss of dignity in it (though I think you are misinterpreting the source of that loss of dignity) but that's no reason to stop me from doing what I please with MY life so long as I'm not treading on the rights of someone else. And unless I have bequeathed it to someone else, no one but me owns the right to my life.

 

[russ_watters]

Life isn't always precious. That argument is religious, and against the forum guidelines.

The principle has nothing to do with religion. In fact, I would think it more likely to be believed by an athiest than a religious person! It is based on simple, pure logic. And heck, it is actually one of the biggest things I find wrong with most religions, that they don't value life as much as the should!

I can't understand how you can think such things. How can you not understand why people would believe life is precious? Why is a diamond precious? Why is anything precious?

 

[Evo]

My choosing to terminate my life has noting to do with societal perceptions. I couldn't give a rat's *** what society thinks about me. And I see absolutely no loss of dignity in losing my mental abilities, nor do I care if other people find a loss of dignity in it (though I think you are misinterpreting the source of that loss of dignity) but that's no reason to stop me from doing what I please with MY life so long as I'm not treading on the rights of someone else. And unless I have bequeathed it to someone else, no one but me owns the right to my life.

I absolutely agree.

If I were suffering from incurable pain I would choose to die. Nothing could be worse. It's no longer "living a life". That is unending torture. The other reason I would chose death is if I were completely paralyzed and was aware but unable to move or even communicate. That would also be hell and also torture, mental torture.

I could not allow a loved one to suffer either of these things and would definitely suport their decision to call it quits. When life gets to that point, it no longer has value, IMO. To force a person to live at that point because "I" can't deal with the fact that they would be gone is unspeakably selfish. I could never force that kind of tortured hell on anyone.

 

[ExactlySolved]

Gokul, I understand your point, and I am not trying to say that the 'loss of dignity' comes from being worried about peoples opinions of you, that feeling rapidly fades after a certain age anyway. When I say 'society' I'm talking about the culture you live in, the values that people of your culture share. It's not as if we form our opinions in isolation, and by looking at history/anthropology we can see how arbitrary our opinions can be, even when everyone around us thinks the opinion is something self-evident that we all share by virtue of being human.

And I see absolutely no loss of dignity in losing my mental abilities, nor do I care if other people find a loss of dignity in it (though I think you are misinterpreting the source of that loss of dignity) but that's no reason to stop me from doing what I please with MY life so long as I'm not treading on the rights of someone else.

Ok, but if there is no loss of dignity, then why would such a person kill themself? f95 put it this way:

To some extent this is simply because I define "myself" via my intellect; my body without my mind wouldn't be me, so from my point of view I would already be dead.

If there is no loss of dignity, then why kill your former body? There are lots of bodies that aren't you, would you also kill them if you had the right?

doing what I please with MY life so long as I'm not treading on the rights of someone else.

As you know, you can kill yourself in many ways without being bothered by the government. The question is whether the government should approve and or assist you in doing so. To frame the debate as anything else is dishonest, no one can stop you from killing yourself in America, they can only punish you for trying, which implies you failed, which implies you didn't try very hard. And since anyone can visit alt.suicide and get all the info and contacts they need, without any reasonable fear of the law, it is dishonest to claim that assisted-suicide opponents are working to keep suffering people from killing themselves, we are only working to keep the government that we elect, pay for, and pledge to honor and support from approving and assisting in suicide. Suicide != murder. Assisted-suicide = (murder + sends the wrong message to people with lives deemed suicide worthy).

If I were suffering from incurable pain I would choose to die. Nothing could be worse. It's no longer "living a life". That is unending torture.

Luckily this is very unlikely to ever happen, since only 3/60 people who chose state-assisted in Oregon in 2008 listed pain as a reason for ending their lives.

The other reason I would chose death is if I were completely paralyzed and was aware but unable to move or even communicate.

Fortunately no one in Oregon had it quite that bad, but based on the survey loss of autonomy and decreasing ability to participate in activities that made life enjoyable were the two biggest reasons for chosing death.

Recovering from a near total loss of actvities is difficult, but it is just a matter of having a flexible brain. After all, children who are born with major impairments e.g. quadropolegia, non-existent limbs, don't miss what they have never had. Having a fossilized brain full of preconceptions about major impairments makes them much more depressing than they need to be.

That is unending torture...That would also be hell and also torture, mental torture...When life gets to that point, it no longer has value, IMO...I could never force that kind of tortured hell on anyone.

The arguments that I am (obviously not doing a good job of) presenting come from academic journals about disability rights. Put aside these intellectual concepts for a second, and look at the above words and remember that we are talking about a human being and their life. What other demographic is it acceptable, for none less than liberals* to speak about this way? How would you feel if someone described your life this way? Suppose you told them that you were happy, that you enjoyed your life despite your ravaged body, and they said they believed you but you could see in their eyes that they didn't? At some point plain sympathy turns to fear and becomes ugly.

*I believe I used the 'none less than' grammar correctly, but what I mean is that it is even more unusual for liberals to be insensitive to disparaging a minority demographic. But isn't it obvious that conservatives and liberals switch their usual arguments on this issue? Normally republicans use libertarian arguments and democrats argue for a tolerant and progressive society! But in this case the republicans fall back to a religious argument and the democrats take a libertarian one. I am presenting neither of the standard arguments, my arguments are secular, progressive, and in total disagreement with the democrats (who morph into libertarians on this issue.

 

[Gokul43201]

If there is no loss of dignity, then why kill your former body?

For any number of possible reasons (and it is still my current body):
1. Because I do not wish to be a drain on others,
2. Because I can no longer derive happiness from living,
3. Because it's a nice day, I feel like it, and I feel no desire to have to explain my actions with my body to anyone else.

There are lots of bodies that aren't you, would you also kill them if you had the right?

It's ironic that you bring this up, because as someone that opposes my right to do with my life what I see fit (if you are such a someone), you are the only one that is deciding what to do with other people's lives, against their wishes.

As you know, you can kill yourself in many ways without being bothered by the government. The question is whether the government should approve and or assist you in doing so.

Jeez! I'd much prefer the Government have nothing to do with it. But they won't, will they? They won't let me get a private doctor to assist me either.

To frame the debate as anything else is dishonest, no one can stop you from killing yourself in America, they can only punish you for trying, which implies you failed, which implies you didn't try very hard.

So now, not trying hard enough is considered criminal behavior? Or did I misunderstand that statement?

 

[ExactlySolved]

1. Because I do not wish to be a drain on others,

What if a teenager or young adult was depressed and wanted to kill themself, and they said "all I do is take my parents money, I'm just a drain on others" then I think we all agree that the state should not endorse or assist in that kid commiting suicide.

The analogy fails, but the analogy is not the point. Think about the things you would say to this confused young adult:

Young Adult: I want to die because I'm a drain on others.

Adult: No that's nonsense, you've got your whole life ahead of you and we'll support you because we love you.

Contrast with:

Person with disabilities: I want to die because I'm a drain on others.

Doctor: If you think it's best, then we could file these do-not-resucitate orders, and I could put you into consideration for a lethal dose of barbituates *exchanges a I-would-want-to-die-too-if-I was-suffering-like-this-miserable-soul look with the nurse.*

2. Because I can no longer derive happiness from living

Again apply the thought experiment with the difference in conversation someone would have with a young adult or a disabled person who was having this thought.

3. Because it's a nice day, I feel like it, and I feel no desire to have to explain my actions with my body to anyone else.

If America passed strict laws against doctor-assisted suicide then you would still be able to kill yourself for the reasons above. Do you really think that the state should condone such an action?

It's ironic that you bring this up, because as someone that opposes my right to do with my life what I see fit (if you are such a someone), you are the only one that is deciding what to do with other people's lives, against their wishes.

No, I don't oppose anyone killing themselves. What I oppose is for the government to say that's ok under some circumstances.

Jeez! I'd much prefer the Government have nothing to do with it. But they won't, will they? They won't let me get a private doctor to assist me either.

If you are actually dying then the state will not keep you alive against your will. The question is whether the state should allow licensed doctors to kill you. I think this sends a terrible message, in particular to those people who have conditions that are considered suicide-worthy.

So now, not trying hard enough is considered criminal behavior? Or did I misunderstand that statement?

No; attempting to commit suicide is always criminal behavior, not trying hard enough leads to getting caught.

I hope everyone in this thread who thinks that we should be able to do whatever we want with our bodies to the point of destroying them completely also thinks that all drugs should be unconditionally legal for home use, at least if prescribed by a physician. Note that I am not advocating this at all, just hoping for consistency in your opinion system.

 

[Cyrus]

I fail to see your point on why someone can't kill themselves. Religious reasons on your part, perhaps?

 

[Evo]

Luckily this is very unlikely to ever happen, since only 3/60 people who chose state-assisted in Oregon in 2008 listed pain as a reason for ending their lives.

No, actually, if euthanasia is universally legalized, that most likely will be chosen by people in incurable pain.

The study you cite was of 56 people that were asked why they would apply for the "Death with Dignity" option. "Death with Diginity" is not about people in extreme pain, total paralysis, or terminal illness. It's about people that want to commit suicide because they don't want to change their lifestyle, in a way they don't deem acceptable.

This has nothing to do with people that are going through hell every day. It's more a law for people that can't cope with a diminished lifestyle.

As long as the law allows people to decide for themselves, or in the case that they have designated someone to make that decision for them, (in the event that they are unable to I have signed such a legal document naming my daughter), then there is no problem. If you don't want to allow someone to make that decision, based on criteria you have specified, then it's your own fault if you are subjected to unending torture.

Anyone that feels they have the right to interfere in someone else's life in this matter are petty and immoral, IMO. How and when I choose to end my life, as long as it does not impose hardship on anyone, is no one's right other then mine. Unfortunately there are delusional control freaks all around that think they should decide these things for you.

It appears that you want to discuss Oregon's "Death with Dignity" law and not the benefits of euthanasia in general.

 

[Gokul43201]

What if a teenager or young adult was depressed and wanted to kill themself, and they said "all I do is take my parents money, I'm just a drain on others" then I think we all agree that the state should not endorse or assist in that kid commiting suicide.

Speak for yourself. In any case, I never said anything about the state having to endorse or assist anyone. All I ask is that the state not oppose it.

If you are a teenager, you are not an adult you do not have the right to decide what happens with your life; your parents/guardians do. Once you've become an adult, you should be the only one with the right to determine what to do with your life.

Young Adult: I want to die because I'm a drain on others.

Adult: No that's nonsense, you've got your whole life ahead of you and we'll support you because we love you.

Contrast with:

Person with disabilities: I want to die because I'm a drain on others.

Doctor: If you think it's best, then we could file these do-not-resucitate orders, and I could put you into consideration for a lethal dose of barbituates *exchanges a I-would-want-to-die-too-if-I was-suffering-like-this-miserable-soul look with the nurse.*

I couldn't care less for the drama between the doctor and the nurse so long the doctor can legally give me what I asked for. Young adult, old adult, middle aged adult - it doesn't matter.

Again apply the thought experiment with the difference in conversation someone would have with a young adult or a disabled person who was having this thought.

The thought experiment has failed so far. I see no point in applying to more and more examples. If I am an adult, then however misguided, depressed, stupid or imbalanced I am, I ought to be the only one with the right to determine what to do with my life. You can require a doctor to offer me counseling, but I should be able to choose to refuse it.

If America passed strict laws against doctor-assisted suicide then you would still be able to kill yourself for the reasons above. Do you really think that the state should condone such an action?

Yes I do. And America already has laws against doctor-assisted suicide. Only three states just barely allow it in some circumstances.

No, I don't oppose anyone killing themselves.

Okay.

What I oppose is for the government to say that's ok under some circumstances.

Why? You don't want the government to have the same good sense that you do?

But to be specific, I'm not asking the government to say that it's ok. I'm not asking it to say anything. In fact, I'm very specifically asking the government to not say anything about what I may or may not do with my life.

I hope everyone in this thread who thinks that we should be able to do whatever we want with our bodies to the point of destroying them completely also thinks that all drugs should be unconditionally legal for home use, at least if prescribed by a physician. Note that I am not advocating this at all, just hoping for consistency in your opinion system.

Yes, for all adults, so long as you do not tread upon the rights of others.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

If America passed strict laws against doctor-assisted suicide then you would still be able to kill yourself for the reasons above. Do you really think that the state should condone such an action?

Up until recently, doctor assisted suicide was illegal in all States, and it is only legal now in a few States, though the Federal government still considers it a crime.

What right does the government have to demand that a terminal patient suffer a painful and miserable death? The point of assisted suicide is to ensure that it is available to those who are no longer capable of choosing to die due to physical limitations. There is also the issue of failed suicides. Many people try to kill themselves but fail because they don't know what dosages of what drugs to take, nor do they have access to the proper drugs.

What you need to justify is why the government has a right to demand that people suffer for many years when there is no hope of recovery and they want to die. I treat my dogs and cats better than that. I would never let them suffer for months or years when there is no hope. That would be cruel. Doesn't a human deserve the option to be treated as well as I would treat a dog?

 

[Cyrus]

Mr Gokul, Build up that wall!

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

So now, not trying hard enough is considered criminal behavior? Or did I misunderstand that statement?

No; attempting to commit suicide is always criminal behavior, not trying hard enough leads to getting caught.

Just to repeat and clarify: It is not illegal to commit suicide in most places and never has been in the US. If you attempt suicide you are considered a danger to yourself and others so will be placed in a psych ward for evaluation (if you don't die). You will not be sent to prison, you will not have a criminal history, and you will not have to pay fines though you may be billed for the expense of treatment and evaluation.
The police must intervene if they see a person dying or attempting to kill themselves and can be brought up on charges of negligence or failure to preform their duty if they do not. There is no way for them to know that a person has made a reasoned and rational decision to kill themselves and the vast majority of people who attempt suicide have not so it is only logical that they intervene. Finding a person dying they can only guess at what happened, they don't even know if it was suicide, homicide, or accident.

 

[Evo]

If America passed strict laws against doctor-assisted suicide then you would still be able to kill yourself for the reasons above. Do you really think that the state should condone such an action?

What are you asking? Are you asking if the state should condone making doctor-assisted suicide illegal? Of course not.

No, I don't oppose anyone killing themselves. What I oppose is for the government to say that's ok under some circumstances.

So you want the government to decide what a person can do concerning their life. List a valid reason why government intervention to prevent a person from making this decision is a good thing.

If you are actually dying then the state will not keep you alive against your will.

Not true. I had to sign a legal document stating that I refused to have any life sustaining resusitive actions where my condition might leave me brain dead or on artificial life support.

The question is whether the state should allow licensed doctors to kill you. I think this sends a terrible message, in particular to those people who have conditions that are considered suicide-worthy.

Sends a terrible message? That a doctor can show compassion in helping a person that has made the choice not to continue their torture? You've obviously never had to deal with extreme pain or a terminal illness.

No; attempting to commit suicide is always criminal behavior, not trying hard enough leads to getting caught.

That's the problem isn't it? Suicide should not be illegal. And no, it's not a case of not trying hard enough. You are making some rather ridiculous statements.

I hope everyone in this thread who thinks that we should be able to do whatever we want with our bodies to the point of destroying them completely also thinks that all drugs should be unconditionally legal for home use, at least if prescribed by a physician. Note that I am not advocating this at all, just hoping for consistency in your opinion system.

If a physician prescribes needed drugs for a patient, it is entirely consistent This is not anything like drug abuse that makes a person a burden on society. So, I don't get what your argument is supposed to be here. Your logic is flawed.

 

[ExactlySolved]

There are too many closed minds going over the same arguments we have all heard - no one has even acknowledged the novelty of the arguments I am presenting, which is either dishonest, or unobservant since these ideas, which are obviously not mine, have been extremely fruitful and fertile in the disability rights literature. I don't like to cite names but since Evo is so well liked I will pick on her:

No, actually, if euthanasia is universally legalized, that most likely will be chosen by people in incurable pain.

The study you cite was of 56 people that were asked why they would apply for the "Death with Dignity" option. "Death with Diginity" is not about people in extreme pain, total paralysis, or terminal illness. It's about people that want to commit suicide because they don't want to change their lifestyle, in a way they don't deem acceptable.

All the people in the statistic I cited actually killed themselves with the help of their doctor in accordance with Oregon's law. Too me it is obvious that in any debate on assisted suicide we should look at how the law is used in places where it is already in effect.

As long as the law allows people to decide for themselves, or in the case that they have designated someone to make that decision for them, (in the event that they are unable to I have signed such a legal document naming my daughter), then there is no problem. If you don't want to allow someone to make that decision, based on criteria you have specified, then it's your own fault if you are subjected to unending torture

We are not talking about 'pull the plug' or 'do not resuscitate', we are talking about 'administer a lethal dose of drugs to someone who is suffering but not imminently dying.'

Anyone that feels they have the right to interfere in someone else's life in this matter are petty and immoral, IMO.

Then I hope you passionately support druggies and hookers, since, compared to people who kill themselves, they treat their bodies and lives with a lot of respect.

So you want the government to decide what a person can do concerning their life. List a valid reason why government intervention to prevent a person from making this decision is a good thing.

So do you support legalizing prostitution and drug use, or do you think that these activities have reprocussions on society but suicide doesn't?

If a physician prescribes needed drugs for a patient, it is entirely consistent This is not anything like drug abuse that makes a person a burden on society. So, I don't get what your argument is supposed to be here. Your logic is flawed.

Druggies and prostitutes are less of a burden to society than children, your logic is flawed: no one is thrown out just for being a burden, we also analyze their positive traits.

I fail to see your point on why someone can't kill themselves. Religious reasons on your part, perhaps?

Are you talking to me? I have repeatedly stated that my argument is secular, do you know what that means? (non-religous). My arguments come directly from secular progressive disability rights literature. The arguments are more sophisticated then anything I have seen presented on TV, and I know its just a forum where people don't read posts with much care, so I'm not sure if it's even possible to get this across to such an unreceptive audience.

Can you imagine being a quadropolegic and loving your life? Not wishing your life to be any other way? If it is a dogma for you that this is impossible, then you may as well give up trying to understand my argument. If you can face the fact that there are people who feel this way (who are the ones responsible for these arguments) then proceed. These people don't want there lives to be described as hell/torture/worthless etc, just as no one wants to be called a racial slur. These people want to live normally in society, without everyone seeing their disability (or their race) instead of seeing them for who they are. They want to end the mistaken belief that major impairments should lead a person to commit suicide. Therefore, they oppose state assisted suicide.

me: then I think we all agree that the state should not endorse or assist in that kid commiting suicide.

Gokul: speak for yourself.

I apologize for ascribing to you a typical degree of compassion for a confused youth, or do you just enjoy saying 'speak for yourself' as if you are teaching me some kind of old fashioned lesson?

I already said that I am not attached to the position I'm playing in this thread, that's why it's so boring when people repeat themselves instead of discussing new arguments. In another thread over in politics I am arguing that it is better for us to be killed by radical terrorist than to save our lives by torturing the terrorist. I really believe that, and its closer to my true opinion: most people over value their lives, and especially the lives of their children, aned that unfortunate value judgement makes the very afraid. IMO the fear of being disabled makes people in general act in a very ugly way to strangers who are disabled.

 

[rootX]

Druggies and prostitutes are less of a burden to society than children, your logic is flawed: no one is thrown out just for being a burden, we also analyze their positive traits.

I don't understand what you are doing with children and prostitutes ... you seems to saying that children are more burden but failing to understand the value of investment.
2) As for prostitutes, I just don't understand why you are bringing them here.I really don't see what's wrong with prostitution and why even one should be bothered by it.
3) Druggies: I don't have any strong opinion about these people.

Sorry, Taking this out of context (I didn't go through all of your post - stopped here. It's just too long).

I already said that I am not attached to the position I'm playing in this thread, that's why it's so boring when people repeat themselves instead of discussing new arguments.

I also don't understand what you are trying to get at.

 

[Cyrus]

After reading this thread, I've decided to kill myself.

 

[Gokul43201]

Can you imagine being a quadropolegic and loving your life? Not wishing your life to be any other way?

Sure I can. And that is consistent with why I oppose involuntary euthanasia.

Can you imagine loving your life so much that it pains you no end when a government tells you what you may or may not do with it?

These people don't want there lives to be described as hell/torture/worthless etc, just as no one wants to be called a racial slur. These people want to live normally in society, without everyone seeing their disability (or their race) instead of seeing them for who they are. They want to end the mistaken belief that major impairments should lead a person to commit suicide. Therefore, they oppose state assisted suicide.

Would they be okay with state assisted suicides for the unimpaired?

I apologize for ascribing to you a typical degree of compassion for a confused youth, or do you just enjoy saying 'speak for yourself' as if you are teaching me some kind of old fashioned lesson?

The first part of that makes no sense to me, but to answer your question in the subsequent clause - not that I see how it is relevant to anything being discussed - saying 'speak for yourself' as if I am teaching you some kind of old fashioned lesson does not give me any particular enjoyment, nor was that even the manner in which I said it (I'm not a fan of old fashioned lessons).

 

[phyzmatix]

If you insist on passing such a judgement on yourself should you acquire such a condition, this is just a form of making exuses for giving up. I find that willpower is a much better judge of someones wisdom than are their superficial mental attributes.

I've found that sometimes giving up is the most logical option and that it often also requires a tremendous amount of willpower to do so. Be wary of confusing willpower with stubbornness.

What right does the government have to demand that a terminal patient suffer a painful and miserable death? The point of assisted suicide is to ensure that it is available to those who are no longer capable of choosing to die due to physical limitations. There is also the issue of failed suicides. Many people try to kill themselves but fail because they don't know what dosages of what drugs to take, nor do they have access to the proper drugs.

I agree completely with what Ivan says here. The government's views on these matters are still strongly underlined by historically religious ways of determining the morality and/or legality of an issue. It's time we move beyond that.

I have some experience with attempted suicides and where most recovered completely, some can end up pretty nasty.

Too me it is obvious that in any debate on assisted suicide we should look at how the law is used in places where it is already in effect.

Why should we turn to the law when it comes to debating assisted suicide? Laws aren't always logical and open to reasoning and, bringing morality into the issue at hand, laws don't always support what's "right" or "wrong" either.

Then I hope you passionately support druggies and hookers, since, compared to people who kill themselves, they treat their bodies and lives with a lot of respect.

...So do you support legalizing prostitution and drug use, or do you think that these activities have reprocussions on society but suicide doesn't?

I most definitely do support legalised prostitution and drug use, but that is a completely different topic and not under discussion here.

My arguments come directly from secular progressive disability rights literature. The arguments are more sophisticated then anything I have seen presented on TV, and I know its just a forum where people don't read posts with much care, so I'm not sure if it's even possible to get this across to such an unreceptive audience.

I think your prior expectations of this forum is what's causing you a great deal of agony here. On this forum, irrespective of the source, arguments have to be pretty much airtight in order not to be ripped to shreds. Simply because something is "more sophisticated than anything you have seen presented on TV" doesn't mean it's flawless. You're dealing mostly with scientists here. No-one is simply going to take your word for it because [insert source here] said so.

Can you imagine being a quadropolegic and loving your life? Not wishing your life to be any other way? If it is a dogma for you that this is impossible, then you may as well give up trying to understand my argument. If you can face the fact that there are people who feel this way (who are the ones responsible for these arguments) then proceed. These people don't want there lives to be described as hell/torture/worthless etc, just as no one wants to be called a racial slur. These people want to live normally in society, without everyone seeing their disability (or their race) instead of seeing them for who they are. They want to end the mistaken belief that major impairments should lead a person to commit suicide. Therefore, they oppose state assisted suicide.

I've also had quite a lot of exposure to quadriplegic people who loved their lives and I'm very happy for them. But you're reasoning that because there are people with terminal illnesses or in wheelchairs etc who are happy with their lives, then everybody else in similar situations must also be happy whether they like it or not and therefore they may not have the right to feel otherwise!

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

There are too many closed minds going over the same arguments we have all heard - no one has even acknowledged the novelty of the arguments I am presenting, which is either dishonest, or unobservant since these ideas, which are obviously not mine, have been extremely fruitful and fertile in the disability rights literature.

I thought you were doing a good job. I considered hopping in but didn't want to break your stride.

 

[ExactlySolved]

I don't understand what you are doing with children and prostitutes ... you seems to saying that children are more burden but failing to understand the value of investment.

I am not failing to understand the value of investment, I'm just pointing out that this value is exactly what compensates for the burden of children. When Evo makes the value judgement that druggies can't do what they want with their bodies because they are a burden on society, I am pointing out that children are a burden as well, that she is making here judgement against druggies for some other reason.

In any case, I just find it odd to see so many people going on about having the right to kill their own bodies, when the topic of drug legalization involves the exact same argument of freedom to do with ones body what one wishes, and the people who want to do drugs are doing vastly less harm to their bodies then the people who commit suicide, it seems that anyone who promotes assisted suicide on the grounds of personal freedom must feel even more passionate about helping the personal freedom of druggies: after all there are millions of them in jail right now for doing what they wanted with their own bodies.

Using a principle like "the government can't tell me what to do with my body" is good, but it should be applied consistently across the board.

2) As for prostitutes, I just don't understand why you are bringing them here.I really don't see what's wrong with prostitution and why even one should be bothered by it.

I'm glad, since that means that you are consistent about your views on the government interfering with personal freedom. Evo, for example, is not consistent because she believes in personal freedom to choose suicide but not personal freedom to sell sex, since this creates 'a burden on society.'

3) Druggies: I don't have any strong opinion about these people.

Since in America a neutral opinion means that something is allowed, and it requires a strong opinion to put someone in jail, I presume you support not incarcerating these people. I applaud your self-consistency.

I also don't understand what you are trying to get at.

I'm trying to expound a novel, secular, progressive argument against legalizing assisted suicide. I don't hold a political opinion, I'm just presenting arguments.

Sure I can. And that is consistent with why I oppose involuntary euthanasia.

In my first post in this thread I mentioned that the gas chambers in Nazi Germany were first authorized to be used on mentally and terminally ill patients, against their will. I don't think anyone in the thread is advocating that

Can you imagine loving your life so much that it pains you no end when a government tells you what you may or may not do with it?

I don't have to imagine, the government already meddles far too much in my life. But meddling is not the same officially disapproving of my actions. If someone commits suicide then the government disapproves, this doesn't mean that they actually meddle in the act of suicide.

Would they be okay with state assisted suicides for the unimpaired?

I like a good hypothetical question, but in this case go back to the analogy about real estate in the 1950s. A white community tries to exclude blacks from moving in using the slogan "Shouldn't you be able to choose who lives in your neighborhood?" At a town hall meeting someone says to a black representative "What if we exclude some white people too?" This is how the disability rights people would respond to your hypothetical: it's besides the point.

I've found that sometimes giving up is the most logical option and that it often also requires a tremendous amount of willpower to do so.

Giving up in certain other contexts perhaps, but dying and being dead don't take any willpower!

The government's views on these matters are still strongly underlined by historically religious ways of determining the morality and/or legality of an issue. It's time we move beyond that.

I agree that we should move beyond religous arguments, but I don't think we should regress to discriminate against a certain group of people as having lives that are suicide-worthy.

I have some experience with attempted suicides and where most recovered completely, some can end up pretty nasty.

Since you have seen so many full and partial recoveries, and at least some of these people went on to not kill themselves, then it seems like you would appreciate that the government had not helped them do the job 'successfully.'

Why should we turn to the law when it comes to debating assisted suicide? Laws aren't always logical and open to reasoning and, bringing morality into the issue at hand, laws don't always support what's "right" or "wrong" either.

No, I'm not talking about reading the wording of Oregon's law, I am talking about looking at the people who are applying it. This is a state where assisted suicide is legal, and so we can look at the statistics of who is opting for assisted suicide. The statistics say that most of these people are terminally ill (cancer is the main one), but that they are not choosing death because of pain. This is important because many people offered horrible pain as an argument in favor of legalizing assisted suicide. If assisted suicide is already legal in Oregon and the people who choose it do not do so because of pain, then the fear of pain is not a good reason to legalize assisted suicide.

I most definitely do support legalised prostitution and drug use, but that is a completely different topic and not under discussion here.

I applaud your consistency. I brought up this topic because some people are offering "we have the right to do what we want with our bodies' as an argument for legalizing assisted suicide, and one way of debating a universal principle is to examine its application to a particular case. Therefore, on the level of particulars the discussion of druggies and hookers is a different topic but on the level of universals it is similar in the way I described above, and hence I believe a valid part of the debate.

On this forum, irrespective of the source, arguments have to be pretty much airtight in order not to be ripped to shreds. Simply because something is "more sophisticated than anything you have seen presented on TV" doesn't mean it's flawless. You're dealing mostly with scientists here. No-one is simply going to take your word for it because [insert source here] said so.

I have been around these forums a long time (5 years). I find that sophistication, and especially novelty, are major detriments to an argument here. I'm not judging the people, I think these shortcomings are inherent in the medium of a forum. Communication on a forum is difficult, misunderstandings are frequent, especially when the material is non-standard. Also, having a science background is a start, but for understanding new arguments that require flexible thinking, philosophy is more important than science, and we all know how philosophy is considered to be a dog on this forum.

But you're reasoning that because there are people with terminal illnesses or in wheelchairs etc who are happy with their lives, then everybody else in similar situations must also be happy whether they like it or not and therefore they may not have the right to feel otherwise!

That is not how the disability rights (DR) argument runs. If you look at who is killing themselves in Oregon, they are mostly doing it because of dignity (92%). Note that they are not killing themselves because of pain, seizures, etc. The DR argument says that if we stop discriminating against people with these conditions, then we can prevent loss of dignity, and these people won't want to die.

If we pass laws allowing people to 'die with dignity' then people will see these conditions as undignified and so more people in this condition will choose to die.

Remember, the laws about assisted suicide don't change anyones ability to kill themself, it is only a matter of whether the government approves or not.

After reading this thread, I've decided to kill myself.

Thanks for the encouragement. Do you need any assistance?

I thought you were doing a good job. I considered hopping in but didn't want to break your stride.

I think my writing style and other things about my character make it impossible for people to agree with what I say, so feel free to jump in and provide an alternate, likely more agreeable, face behind these arguments.

 

[phyzmatix]

Giving up in certain other contexts perhaps, but dying and being dead don't take any willpower!

If you've ever considered suicide (I'm not talking about swallowing some pills or scratching your wrists for attention), then you'd understand what I meant with willpower. It takes a tremendous amount of willpower to overpower the body (and mind's) natural desires to continue living.

I agree that we should move beyond religous arguments, but I don't think we should regress to discriminate against a certain group of people as having lives that are suicide-worthy.

But what if you have a group of people who define their lives as suicide-worthy themselves?

Since you have seen so many full and partial recoveries, and at least some of these people went on to not kill themselves, then it seems like you would appreciate that the government had not helped them do the job 'successfully.'

A very valid point, but I brought up this example of my personal experience mainly as support for Ivan's comment regarding the potential horror of failed suicides. Also, there is always the case of "hindsight is 20/20" and not one of the cases I've been involved with were terminally ill/mentally disabled (the vast majority were love-life issues and/or money related).

No, I'm not talking about reading the wording of Oregon's law, I am talking about looking at the people who are applying it. This is a state where assisted suicide is legal, and so we can look at the statistics of who is opting for assisted suicide. The statistics say that most of these people are terminally ill (cancer is the main one), but that they are not choosing death because of pain. This is important because many people offered horrible pain as an argument in favor of legalizing assisted suicide. If assisted suicide is already legal in Oregon and the people who choose it do not do so because of pain, then the fear of pain is not a good reason to legalize assisted suicide.

OK.

Communication on a forum is difficult, misunderstandings are frequent, especially when the material is non-standard. Also, having a science background is a start, but for understanding new arguments that require flexible thinking, philosophy is more important than science, and we all know how philosophy is considered to be a dog on this forum.

I agree that forum communication can be difficult at times but I don't think a philosophical approach to new arguments is in itself effective if the reasoning behind it is illogical.

If we pass laws allowing people to 'die with dignity' then people will see these conditions as undignified and so more people in this condition will choose to die.

Remember, the laws about assisted suicide don't change anyones ability to kill themself, it is only a matter of whether the government approves or not.

I see what you mean. So the problem here is mostly with the wording of the laws then? If there's a wordmonger amongst us who can re-phrase the laws so as not to imply that one's life under these conditions is less dignified etc etc than another's then everything's ok?

 

[Evo]

When Evo makes the value judgement that druggies can't do what they want with their bodies because they are a burden on society, I am pointing out that children are a burden as well, that she is making here judgement against druggies for some other reason.

That's a ridiculous statement. Someone ending their life that places no burden on anyone has nothing to with someone addicted to illegal drugs that becomes a burden to society.

In any case, I just find it odd to see so many people going on about having the right to kill their own bodies, when the topic of drug legalization involves the exact same argument of freedom to do with ones body what one wishes, and the people who want to do drugs are doing vastly less harm to their bodies then the people who commit suicide, it seems that anyone who promotes assisted suicide on the grounds of personal freedom must feel even more passionate about helping the personal freedom of druggies: after all there are millions of them in jail right now for doing what they wanted with their own bodies.

see above

Evo, for example, is not consistent because she believes in personal freedom to choose suicide but not personal freedom to sell sex, since this creates 'a burden on society.'

No, I have made no such comment. I suggest you go back and check, then retract your statement.

If assisted suicide is already legal in Oregon and the people who choose it do not do so because of pain, then the fear of pain is not a good reason to legalize assisted suicide.

Again, that is a ridiculous statement.

 

[ExactlySolved]

If you've ever considered suicide (I'm not talking about swallowing some pills or scratching your wrists for attention), then you'd understand what I meant with willpower. It takes a tremendous amount of willpower to overpower the body (and mind's) natural desires to continue living.

That makes sense, it would take a lot of willpower to kill yourself if you did not want to die. For example, someone who sacrifices themselves to save others.

But what if you have a group of people who define their lives as suicide-worthy themselves?

Like I said earlier, no one makes decisions in a vacuum, these people have been an influenced by the culture around them all their lives. It turns out that if you look at our culture critically it is constantly sending the message that death is a good option for people who are permanently disabled by major impairment or disease --- TV, movies, novels, if you just go out and look you will find these archetypical disability dramas where 'ruined'/'worthless'/'torture'/'hell' pepper the script and resolution of the plot involves the patient dying. One example is the ~1980 Richard Dreyfuss film 'Whose life is it anyway?', watch it for the disability cliches to see how culture influences our opinions on this subject.

I agree that forum communication can be difficult at times but I don't think a philosophical approach to new arguments is in itself effective if the reasoning behind it is illogical.

In order to understand these arguments it is important to have a flexible mind in a way that only those who are willing to consider any question without *shutting down into dogma town* can do.

(1) The first major supposition is that healthy/normal does not exist as a natural category in the biological sense, that it consists entirely of value judgements. citation:

Amundson, R. (2000). Against normal function. Studies in the History and Philosophy of Biological and Biomedical. Sciences, 31C, 33–53

(2) The next thing to suppose is that disabilities are a social condition that arises from a societal response to an impairment e.g. not being able to walk is an impairment, not being able to get around town is a disability (remember, there is nothing 'normal' about walking because there is no such thing as physical normalcy as per (1) ). This is the disability/impairment distinction.

Now, what I have been proving with the Oregon statistics is that people are not choosing death because of anything inherent to their impairment, but rather because of the societal issues which are surrounding them. Allowing for assisted suicide only further worsens these societal issues.

I see what you mean. So the problem here is mostly with the wording of the laws then? If there's a wordmonger amongst us who can re-phrase the laws so as not to imply that one's life under these conditions is less dignified etc etc than another's then everything's ok?

No, the wording is irrelevant because these people are on a list that is considered ok for assisted suicide. What if 'black' or 'hispanic' were also included as conditions that qualify someone for assisted suicide? Wouldn't that be insulting to minorities? A similar problem occurs for whatever you put on the list, it is insulting to people who meet that description.

Now, if anyone is going to say that 'black' and 'hispanic' have nothing in common with the kind of categories that are put on the list e.g. terminally ill, then they fail at supposition (1) above.

That's a ridiculous statement. Someone ending their life that places no burden on anyone has nothing to with someone addicted to illegal drugs that becomes a burden to society.

Correction, you don't see what one has to do with the other. I'm nice so I will repeat myself and explain again: people who commit suicide treat their bodies worse than drug offenders. Therefore, anyone who thinks assisted suicide should be legal on the grounds that what we do with our bodies is our right, cannot favor laws against drug use on the grounds that drugs are bad for someones body or mind.

Also, note that the law forbids citizens from using drugs, and their guilt under these laws is not conditional on their value to society. For example, Richard Feynman or Carl Sagan are valuable people who would have gone to jail like anyone else if they had been caught by our nation's drug laws!

No, I have made no such comment. I suggest you go back and check, then retract your statement.

Yeah, I was just being nasty, I regret and retract my statement.

Again, that is a ridiculous statement.

You calling my statements ridiculous (3 times) is, needless to say, not an argument. The very least you could do is to ridicule my ridiculous statements!