The SM masters having fun in Iraqs prison

[pelastration]

Huh? Do you have a link to this "classified" informaiton you googled?...lol, I feel like humming the doo doo do doo's of the old "twighlight zone" shows.

BTW-I thought the Patriot Act was to protect MY freedoms as an American..not YOURS as a hostile Euro! :surprise:

1. The link (at your own risk!): http://images.google.com/images?q=Col. Thomas M. Pappas&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi. Click on the image.

2. . That's was I said: "... your freedom".

 

[revelator]

Why would the troops take pictures of themselves torturing and abusing the prisoners? that's stupid, too stupid.

PsyOps. Psychological Operations. Interrogations go a lot easier if you break a person's will. One of the involved soldiers has been reported as saying, that they were to take the pictures, and tell the Iraqi prisoners that these pictures were being shown to their famliles.

 

[pelastration]

new pictures of abuse:
(1) Charles Graner posing over the body of a dead Iraqi detainee
(2) Sabrina Harman strikes a similar pose. A patch of blood can be seen on the dead man's right temple

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/3689167.stm

 

[Simon666]

new pictures of abuse:
(1) Charles Graner posing over the body of a dead Iraqi detainee
(2) Sabrina Harman strikes a similar pose. A patch of blood can be seen on the dead man's right temple

I'm waiting what the excuse of the apologists for this will be this time, a rehersal for a new Disney on Ice show based on "Weekend at Bernie's"?

A naked prisoner simulating sex is humiliating, but humiliation does not constitute torture.

Oh yes it does, and even if it doesn't, how about a broomstick up your arse? Want one?

 

[Adam]

Humiliation: see Geneva Convention.

 

[pelastration]

Ooops

Report Links U.S. General to Iraq Prison Abuse Case

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A lawyer for a soldier charged in the Abu Ghraib abuse case said a captain at the Iraqi prison has charged that Army Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez was present during some unspecified "interrogations and/or allegations of the prisoner abuse," The Washington Post reported on Sunday.

Citing a recording of a military hearing obtained by the newspaper, The Post said the military lawyer, Capt. Robert Shuck, was told that Sanchez, the highest-ranking U.S. military officer in Iraq, and other senior officials were aware of what was taking place at Abu Ghraib.

Shuck is assigned to defend Staff Sgt. Ivan Frederick, one of the seven U.S. soldiers, four men and three women, accused of abuses at the prison. One pleaded guilty on Wednesday and was imprisoned.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=OHREX2OKZAEXMCRBAEOCFFA?type=topNews&storyID=5226827

 

[pelastration]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-05-23-abuse-usat_x.htm

General questions how abuse case handled
By Blake Morrison and John Diamond, USA TODAY

The general who was in charge of U.S. detention facilities in Iraq said Sunday that repeated visits to the Abu Ghraib prison by Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez — and his initial response to the misconduct there — raise questions about whether Sanchez, the senior U.S. military officer in Iraq, knew more about the abuse of Iraqi prisoners than he has acknowledged.

(snip)

Sanchez told members of the Senate panel that he had his own procedures for interrogating prisoners, from the standard Army field manual. That document outlines far milder techniques, such as offering prisoners small incentives — cigarettes or a shower — or larger ones, such as political asylum or protection for relatives.

But the controversial interrogation rules that Sanchez said he did not know about were posted on the wall of the interrogation room at Abu Ghraib, an Army colonel testified at the Senate hearing. Sanchez toured the prison several times; Karpinski says he visited Abu Ghraib more often after the 205th Military Intelligence brigade took over the prison in November.

"It was surprising that he visited as often as he did when it went under the MI brigade," she says. "I remember that thought passing through my head."

...
---
In the article was not mentioned if Lt. General Sanchez had blue rubber gloves to keep his hands clean of all the dust.

 

[pelastration]

General Sanchez is a straight shooter

http://www.iht.com/articles/521367.html

... (third page)

Senator Pat Roberts, Republican of Kansas and chairman of the Select Intelligence Committee, said Sunday that he was waiting to learn more but would be ‘‘stunned’’ if it were proved that Sanchez had had advance knowledge ‘‘because, you know, General Sanchez is a straight shooter.
.
But a Democrat on the Armed Services Committee, Senator Jack Reed of Rhode Island, said that if Sanchez had learned belatedly of the abuses, that was a problem as well.
.
The senators were also asked about a Time magazine report that as many as 2,000 pages of supporting material might have been omitted from a copy provided to senators of the Abu Ghraib investigative report by Major General Antonio Taguba.
.
‘‘We’ll sure as hell find out’’ about the possible omission, Roberts said.
.
Time quoted the Pentagon spokesman, Lawrence DiRita, as saying, ‘‘If there is some shortfall in what was provided, it was an oversight.[/URL]’’

---
An oversight. Sure.

---
BTW I tried to find the official press release. "WASHINGTON: US military command has denied a report that one of its top generals in Iraq was present during some interrogations at the Abu Ghraib prison and witnessed abuse of Iraqi inmates.
"There was a news report published on May 23, 2004, which suggests that Lt Gen Ricardo Sanchez, commander of Multinational Forces-Iraq was aware of, and in some instances, present at Abu Ghraib while detainee abuse was occurring," the US military said in a statement.
"This report is false."

 

[pelastration]

Asphyxiations practices.

U.S. Army Survey Cites Wider Prisoner Abuse - NYT
Wednesday, May 26, 2004; 3:02 AM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A56301-2004May26.html

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A U.S. Army synopsis of deaths and mistreatment involving prisoners in American custody in Iraq and Afghanistan shows a pattern of abuse involving more military units than previously known, The New York Times reported on Wednesday.

The summary, dated May 5, was prepared by the Criminal Investigation Command at the request of Army officials, according to the newspaper.

It outlines the status of investigations into 36 cases, including the continuing probe into the abuses at Abu Ghraib prison on the outskirts of Baghdad, the paper said.

The Iraq cases date back to April 2003, the Times reported. In an incident reported to have taken place last month, a prisoner detained by Navy commandos died in a suspected case of homicide blamed on "blunt force trauma to the torso and positional asphyxia," the paper said.
...

One of the oldest cases listed in the May 5 document involves the death of a prisoner in Afghanistan in December 2002, the paper said.

The document said enlisted personnel from a military intelligence unit at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, and an Army Reserve military-police unit from Ohio are thought to have been "involved at various times in assaulting and mistreating the detainee," according to the Times.

Members of the 223rd Military Intelligence Battalion, which is part of the California National Guard, were accused of abusing Iraqi detainees last spring in Samarra, north of Baghdad, the Times reported.

The Army summary said the unidentified enlisted personnel "forced into asphyxiations numerous detainees in an attempt to obtain information" over a 10-week period, according to the paper.

 

[pelastration]

Abu Ghraib interrogations = computer services?

Inquiry into interrogation firm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3754683.stm

A private firm hired by the Pentagon to interrogate prisoners in Iraq's prisons has had its contract frozen as federal officials investigate its involvement.

The probe could cost defence contractor Caci Corporation its right to bid for government work.

Investigators are looking into an army report's accusations that a Caci staffer took part in the abuse of prisoners at Baghdad's Abu Ghraib jail.

The news sent Caci's shares down as much as 13% on Wall Street.


'Satisfactory' service

The firm says it is presently subject to five separate government investigations.

The firm insists customers had said say its work has been "very satisfactory" and "continue to request [its] services".

But among the five inquiries is one by the General Services Administration, which Caci acknowledged would investigate whether it should remain eligible for government contracts.

And another is looking into the fact that the interrogation services appear to have been provided not under a Defense Department contract, but under an otherwise innocuous deal to supply computer services to the Interior Department.
...
---
Seems these computer services were not related to software but to hardware.

 

[phoenixy]

BTW-I thought the Patriot Act was to protect MY freedoms

haha, good one

 

[russ_watters]

Every criminal in jail will tell you they are there against their will, but every one of them made a choice and is now paying the consequences.

Unless I missed it, not even the US military claims that all those held in the prison were criminals; they were taken there for the primary purpose of gathering intel ... apparently by means that included what most folk would call 'torture', and which Dubya has declared unacceptable. No doubt many of those subject to ill-treatment were 'guilty' of nothing but being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Unless it is claimed that the US forces are infallible, or that all Iraqis are 'fair game' ... I doubt that Russ, hughes, phat, etc would make either such claim.

I have been away from this thread for a while and missed this one. It needs a clarification.

I was making a comparison to Americans in American prisons - I was not implying that we know anything about the guilt or innocence of anyone in those prison camps in Iraq. Indeed, mistakes happen both in the US criminal justice system and in the military one during wartime.

 

[pelastration]

Guantanamo Interrogators Were Sent to Iraq - NY Times
Sat May 29, 2004 02:50 AM ET
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=5292501

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Interrogation experts from the Guantanamo Bay naval base were sent to Iraq last fall and played a major role in training U.S. intelligence teams at the Abu Ghraib prison, The New York Times reported on Saturday.

Citing senior military intelligence officials, the Times reported the teams from Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, operated there with broad latitude in questioning "enemy combatants" from the U.S. war on terror and then played a central role at Abu Ghraib through December, when the worst abuses of prisoners were occurring there.

...

The Times said the teams were sent to Iraq for 90-day tours at the urging of Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller, then head of detention operations at Guantanamo. According to a defense official, Miller, the newly appointed head of Abu Ghraib, was sent to Iraq last summer to recommend improvements in intelligence gathering and detention operations there.

The Times said the involvement of the Guantanamo teams had not previously been disclosed and, according to U.S. military officials, would be included in a major report on suspected abuses by military intelligence specialists that is being completed by Maj. Gen. George Fay.

The newspaper reported that military officials said Fay would determine whether tactics used by interrogators at Guantanamo and in Afghanistan were wrongly applied in Iraq, including at Abu Ghraib, which was covered by the Geneva Convention.

Fay and his 29-member team conducted scores of interviews in Iraq, Europe and the United States over the past month, the Times said, and he was expected to brief Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, on his findings in the next week, a senior Army official told the paper.

The Times quoted a senior military official in Iraq as saying five interrogation teams, or about 15 interrogators, analysts and other specialists, were sent in October from Guantanamo to the U.S. command in Iraq "for use in the interrogation effort" at Abu Ghraib. A Washington defense official said only three teams were sent, the paper added

 

[pelastration]

Prison abuse 'widespread in Iraq'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3759923.stm
29 May, 2004

An American news agency says it has seen official papers suggesting that prisoner abuse in Iraq took place at four sites other than Abu Ghraib.

Evidence of abuse has emerged from a marine camp at Nasiriya and army camps at Baghdad International Airport, Qaim and Samarra, the Associated Press says.

Detainees were allegedly beaten or forced to stand for long periods of time in scorching desert heat.

AP examined court transcripts and investigator interviews.

The abuses allegedly committed at Abu Ghraib, the feared Saddam-era prison now run by coalition forces, outraged the world after a stream of photos apparently taken by guards emerged.

According to the military documents seen by AP, at least two detainees held at other sites died of their injuries.

The allegations concerning military intelligence troops include the following:


At Camp Whitehorse near Nasiriya, guards were allegedly told to prepare prisoners for interrogation by keeping them in hoods in temperatures of up to 49C degrees (120F) for 50 minutes at a time over periods of 10 hours. One Iraqi detainee choked to death.

At a camp near Qaim, interrogators allegedly stuffed an Iraqi general into a sleeping bag, sat on his chest and covered his mouth. Maj Gen Abed Hamed Mowhoush, who had also been questioned by CIA operatives, eventually died.

At a camp near Samarra, prisoners were reportedly choked and beaten and had their hair pulled.

At Camp Cropper, at Baghdad International Airport, prisoners were allegedly beaten and forced to adopt painful positions for hours at a time.

 

[pelastration]

AP: Army noted Geneva Conventions violations in Iraq prisons last fall

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-06-01-prison-abuse_x.htm

WASHINGTON (AP) — An Army general who visited Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq last fall complained that the military was violating international war standards by incarcerating common criminals along with insurgents captured in attacks against U.S.-led forces.

It was one among dozens of observations in a still-classified report, obtained Tuesday by The Associated Press, portraying an overcrowded, dysfunctional prison system lacking basic sanitation and medical supplies.

"Due to operational limitations, facility limitations and force protection issues, there are criminal detainees collocated with other types of detainees, including security detainees," wrote Maj. Gen. Donald Ryder, the Army's provost martial general. "However, the Geneva Convention does not allow this."

Ryder warned that mixing such prisoners "invites confusion about handling, processing and treatment."

Article 84 of the Fourth Geneva Convention prohibits housing prisoners of war and "persons deprived of liberty for any other reason" with general criminal populations. The rules also require that enemy prisoners be kept in facilities "affording every guarantee of hygiene and healthfulness."

... and more

 

[Simon666]

Article 84 of the Fourth Geneva Convention prohibits housing prisoners of war and "persons deprived of liberty for any other reason" with general criminal populations. The rules also require that enemy prisoners be kept in facilities "affording every guarantee of hygiene and healthfulness."

You mean dipping their food in the toilet and covering them with feces is illegal? How else should we extract confessions from these dangerous random rounded up civilia...errrr...terrorists?

 

[Nommos Prime (Dogon)]

Rapist Chain Of Command

Rapist Chain Of Command

I’ve sat out of this one long enough.

Your MI “Cronie”, Colonel Papas, ORDERED physical assaults, mental barrages and SEXUAL HUMILIATION (upon Islamic Males).
Further to this, your MPs took GREAT PLEASURE inflicting these sadistic/perverted acts upon helpless prisoners, over a period of MONTHS.

Now, the Iraqis are prisoners IN THEIR OWN NATION. The USA are cowardly aggressors in Iraq.

The USA’s MI/CIA/MPs are a bunch of sick, evil cowards.
It takes a “special breed” to become such Perverted, rapist scum.

Note, that the USA censored many Red Cross reports on the infamous Iraqi torture prison.

Read the Transcript from last night’s Four Corners special, entitled “Chain Of Command”. Read what YOUR OWN Citizens have to say about it…;
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2003/transcripts/s1126969.htm

 

[member 5645]

Rapist Chain Of Command

I’ve sat out of this one long enough.

Your MI “Cronie”, Colonel Papas, ORDERED physical assaults, mental barrages and SEXUAL HUMILIATION (upon Islamic Males).
Further to this, your MPs took GREAT PLEASURE inflicting these sadistic/perverted acts upon helpless prisoners, over a period of MONTHS.

Now, the Iraqis are prisoners IN THEIR OWN NATION. The USA are cowardly aggressors in Iraq.

The USA’s MI/CIA/MPs are a bunch of sick, evil cowards.
It takes a “special breed” to become such Perverted, rapist scum.

Note, that the USA censored many Red Cross reports on the infamous Iraqi torture prison.

Read the Transcript from last night’s Four Corners special, entitled “Chain Of Command”. Read what YOUR OWN Citizens have to say about it…;
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2003/transcripts/s1126969.htm

All australian service men are rapist because of the rapes that inflicted in WWII :)

Why don't you quote what 'my' citizens say about it. I'm not going to waste my time reading through your link.

I love the "us and them" attitude you have - Just like your favorite person, GW Bush

 

[selfAdjoint]

Have you seen the latest revelations, how the government lawyers in 2002 and 2003 developed a theory that the right to disobey the US and treaty laws against torture is "inherent in the presidency", just as if he were Josef Stalin!

Here's what Philip Carter, a military law blogger, has to say about it. http://www.intel-dump.com/archives/archive_2004_06_07.shtml#1086610719

 

[Nommos Prime (Dogon)]

Woops

Sorry, I placed a post I meant for the Reagan thread here. I have since removed it.
(LARGE EDIT)

 

[pelastration]

Have you seen the latest revelations, how the government lawyers in 2002 and 2003 developed a theory that the right to disobey the US and treaty laws against torture is "inherent in the presidency", just as if he were Josef Stalin!

Here's what Philip Carter, a military law blogger, has to say about it. http://www.intel-dump.com/archives/archive_2004_06_07.shtml#1086610719

Thanks for the link selfAdjoint.
The red line is the negative attitude and intentions these doc's show. That explains also why USA opposed against any involvement of the ICC.
(quote): But this DoD memo appears to be quite the opposite. It is, quite literally, a cookbook approach for illegal government conduct. This memorandum lays out the substantive law on torture and how to avoid it. It then goes on to discuss the procedural mechanisms with which torture is normally prosecuted, and techniques for avoiding those traps. I have not seen the text of the memo, but from this report, it does not appear that it advises American personnel to comply with international or domestic law. It merely tells them how to avoid it. That is dangerous legal advice.(end of quote).
That's why some people admire Rumsfeld because that's 'smart'.

 

[Adam]

1) Phatmonky has confessed that he does not read information provided.

2) The Red Cross generally does not release reports to the public about their findings in places such as the USA prisons here and there, as that would result in them having reduced access. They released a report into recent US activities specifically because they were so bad.

3) The soldiers are there at the command of the government, who (at least in theory) are enacting the will of the people. Thus, all rapes, murders, beatings, abuses of human rights, et cetera, are the responsibility of the US public. And yes, this means the Australian leaders from WW2 should pay for any crimes committed by our soldiers back then, and Australia should pay reparations to the victims. However, for the record, there is only ONE known incident of Australian interrogators going over the line.

 

[kat]

From your link

I have not seen the text of the memo, but from this report, it does not appear that it advises American personnel to comply with international or domestic law. It merely tells them how to avoid it. That is dangerous legal advice.

Have you a link to the actual memo? otherwise this is all speculation. Which makes for interesting conversation, but speculation none the less.

 

[kat]

oops, scratch that. I missed the top link. No time to read it now though.

 

[member 5645]

1) Phatmonky has confessed that he does not read information provided.
.

I have refused to read 20 page links, on a site built around debate and discussion. Especially when someone refers to something that is SOMEWHERE in said link.
Add your own thoghts, and once again, GET OFF MY BALLS.

 

[studentx]

However, for the record, there is only ONE known incident of Australian interrogators going over the line.

Only one? One is far too many. Its despicable to hear this poor excuse.

 

[kat]

Have you seen the latest revelations, how the government lawyers in 2002 and 2003 developed a theory that the right to disobey the US and treaty laws against torture is "inherent in the presidency", just as if he were Josef Stalin!

Here's what Philip Carter, a military law blogger, has to say about it. http://www.intel-dump.com/archives/archive_2004_06_07.shtml#1086610719

This is a draft of a working group report. This is nothing but a group researching and reporting on a multitude of legal scenerios and the prospective legal application. Friggin ridiculous. It's very similar to the environment report that was passsed around a few months ago, that in then end created by a group of grad student who were procured to develop different scenerios. They admitted that they purposely pushed the envelope in order to explore extreme situations.
Give me a break. There's enough crap to put forth that is factual without passing off this stuff as some incredible revelation...ooOOOooohhh OOOOOOOOH Aaawwwww
A working group explored extreme situations and the legal ramifications...OOoOOOOHHHHhh. Hello reality?

 

[Nommos Prime (Dogon)]

Australian soldiers and MPs DO NOT have the sick sexual fetishes that the Americans do.
An Australian soldier requested to do this SEXUAL HUMILIATION would not. If he did, he would be summarily bashed...

Oh, and before anybody says its not a "fetish".
What was it, then?
(a) "Interrogation"
(b) "Torture"
(c) "Rape"
(d) "Sexual Perversion"
(e) "fun"
(f) "stupidity"

Also, were they ordered to produce this sickness?
Or, did the MPs (just happen to be concentrated into a SINGLE UNIT of sick bastards from a Tarrantino movie?)

Non of the above options look too attractive to me...

 

[kat]

Australian soldiers and MPs DO NOT have the sick sexual fetishes that the Americans do.

Painting with a broad brush...

 

[Nommos Prime (Dogon)]

Not Really...

I haven't seen any photographs (or RED CROSS Reports) which clarly show NUMEROUS Australian soldiers involved in this evil. Have you?

I've only seen what everybody else has (Americans).

 

[kat]

I haven't seen any photographs (or RED CROSS Reports) which clarly show NUMEROUS Australian soldiers involved in this evil. Have you?

I've only seen what everybody else has (Americans).

absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
There were recent reports on serious abuses in prisons at the hands of ...the french.

 

[Nommos Prime (Dogon)]

Kat Contradiction

Oh I see.
If there is NO evidence, it's possible.

But when there is a MOUNTAIN of evidence, its not good enough.

You're a walking contradiction...

 

[Adam]

I have refused to read 20 page links, on a site built around debate and discussion. Especially when someone refers to something that is SOMEWHERE in said link.
Add your own thoghts, and once again, GET OFF MY BALLS.

Your homosexual innuendos do not interest me. Try someone else.

Apart from that, you can either: 1) read the information provided; or 2) admit you continually whine and complain from ignorance, so we can simply ignore your further posts.

 

[Adam]

Only one? One is far too many. Its despicable to hear this poor excuse.

For once you have said something vaguely rational. Congratulations. Keep it up.

PS: I was not making any excuses for the poor behaviour of my country's military. I was merely stating a fact.

 

[Adam]

I haven't seen any photographs (or RED CROSS Reports) which clarly show NUMEROUS Australian soldiers involved in this evil. Have you?

I've only seen what everybody else has (Americans).

Unfortunately it emerged last week that Australian intelligence officers were present in Abu Ghraib and other such places as observers, and our defence force knew all about it for quite some time. John Howard is claiming "Heck, nobody told me!" once again, just as with the "children overboard" thing. However, as you say, there has been no suggestion of them actually participating. But to me, that is not enough. They should have made their own records, and forwarded the records to the PM, and he should have forwarded them to the UN.