The Ultimate Loss of Civil Liberties: Innocent Man Shot Dead in UK

[vanesch]

It's also why terrorism is such a serious threat. A suicide bombing in itself makes the affected people feel less secure. The inevitable human over-reaction, both of the populace and the authorities, makes the targeted people feel even more powerless and vulnerable. An attack on London subways affects more than 50+ that died in the attacks - it winds up affecting every single resident of London.

And that's why I propose the ignorance of the event, which would piss off the terrorists most, and reduce the damage of the event.

 

[Art]

It obviously isn't the intention of the police but many Asians in Britain are now more frightened than anyone.

They too are vulnerable to terrorist bombs but now have the added fear of being shot dead for appearing suspicious and being abused by white caucasians.

According to comments on the BBC home page the number of Asians using the underground has fallen by 75%. Not because of the fear of bombs but because they are in fear of their fellow travellers and the police.

 

[Smurf]

It obviously isn't the intention of the police but many Asians in Britain are now more frightened than anyone.

They too are vulnerable to terrorist bombs but now have the added fear of being shot dead for appearing suspicious and being abused by white caucasians.

According to comments on the BBC home page the number of Asians using the underground has fallen by 75%. Not because of the fear of bombs but because they are in fear of their fellow travellers and the police.

Excellent! That's a 75% drop in unharmed targets for evil terrorists.

 

[brewnog]

It obviously isn't the intention of the police but many Asians in Britain are now more frightened than anyone.
They too are vulnerable to terrorist bombs but now have the added fear of being shot dead for appearing suspicious and being abused by white caucasians.

Indeed, this is a real problem. This country has quite a culture of older people (aged 50 upwards) viewing people of Asian origin with contempt. It's not so much racial hatred as xenophobia. I think this series of incidents (and disregarding any possible increased risk of falling prey to the police) will only worsen the public perception of Asian-looking people, particularly in the eyes of this older age range, and do nothing to help their integration within the British community.

According to comments on the BBC home page the number of Asians using the underground has fallen by 75%. Not because of the fear of bombs but because they are in fear of their fellow travellers and the police.

I wonder by what percentage the number of passengers overall has fallen by.

 

[Art]

Indeed, this is a real problem. This country has quite a culture of older people (aged 50 upwards) viewing people of Asian origin with contempt. It's not so much racial hatred as xenophobia. I think this series of incidents (and disregarding any possible increased risk of falling prey to the police) will only worsen the public perception of Asian-looking people, particularly in the eyes of this older age range, and do nothing to help their integration within the British community.

In a previous thread I suggested that the terrorists goal was to marginalise the wider muslim population by driving a wedge between them and their non-muslim neighbours thus shifting the centre further to the right and so gathering new recruits who will begin to fall into the enlarged extremist far right. Current events suggest their policy is working.

I wonder by what percentage the number of passengers overall has fallen by.

The latest figure I saw said 27% of travellers overall in London were reviewing their travel arrangements.

 

[brewnog]

In a previous thread I suggested that the terrorists goal was to marginalise the wider muslim population by driving a wedge between them and their non-muslim neighbours thus shifting the centre further to the right and so gathering new recruits who will begin to fall into the enlarged extremist far right. Current events suggest their policy is working.

Clever, very clever.

If this is the case, then it would seem that curbing terrorism is even more of a difficult task than had been imagined otherwise.

The latest figure I saw said 27% of travellers overall in London were reviewing their travel arrangements.

Yeah, it's probably about right, but I reckon tube-faring numbers have plummeted over these past weeks (although I'm not in London to say). Both British Transport Police and the London Underground are saying that it's too early to give numbers yet, but it'll be interesting when they do, I'm sure.

 

[The Smoking Man]

The Smoking Man i think you are talking to a wall..
it can't be explained more simple that the way The Smoking Man did it. But DM you are only quoting the little fragments that you think you have a little chace of arguing and forgeting and dismising the rest. That kind of conduct (very common in this forums) makes me want to blow up my self!

Totally skipped over this little gem didn't he:

I suggest you read the actual http://www.highbeam.com/library/doc0.asp?docid=1G1:96860752&refid=ink_tptd_np&skeyword=&teaser=&COOKIE=NO&token=5B3DF6035CDE4DFC88239D654E081010 then:

POLICE officers are to be issued with guidance on dealing with suicide bombers.

They will be told not to intervene or challenge a suspected suicide bomber, but to alert anti-terrorist experts immediately.

Patrol officers will then be offered advice on how to assess whether the suspect is a potential suicide, or someone planning to plant a bomb.

If a potential suicide is thought likely, officers will be advised on how best to clear people from the path of the bomber without alerting him.

A range of tactics can then be used against the bomber - including the use ...

 

[Smurf]

Clever, very clever.

If this is the case, then it would seem that curbing terrorism is even more of a difficult task than had been imagined otherwise.

What? You mean the 'flypaper' tactic might not work!?

it can't be!

(i never would've expected)

 

[Andy]

To suggest that you can tell a muslim apart from a brazilian portugese is to be honest rather ignorant. Muslims aren't just one colour, the majority are arabic in appearance, but there are lots of white muslims and lots of black muslims.

There has been no evidence presented whatsoever

Cant remember who posted that now (just got back from pub) but 90% of this evidence would appear to be complete hearsay, and media mumbo jumbo. On friday there was an eyewitness who defiently counted 5 shots fired, turns out it was 8? Nobody i know can count that bad, and this guy insisted that it was definately five shots fired not four not six but five. So how many of these eye witness's actually witnessed anything at all?

 

[Smurf]

To suggest that you can tell a muslim apart from a brazilian portugese is to be honest rather ignorant. Muslims aren't just one colour, the majority are arabic in appearance, but there are lots of white muslims and lots of black muslims.

You're ignorant. Anyone with half a brain can tell an arab, a south american and an asian apart, and if the Police can't, they ought to be trained to be able to. (see incompetence #2)

 

[brewnog]

To suggest that you can tell a muslim apart from a brazilian portugese is to be honest rather ignorant. Muslims aren't just one colour, the majority are arabic in appearance, but there are lots of white muslims and lots of black muslims.

You're ignorant. Anyone with half a brain can tell an arab, a south american and an asian apart, and if the Police can't, they ought to be trained to be able to. (see incompetence #2)

Telling the difference between a Muslim and a Brazilian is like telling the difference between a Christian and a Norweed.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Telling the difference between a Muslim and a Brazilian is like telling the difference between a Christian and a Norweed.

Two Words:

Richard Reid

 

[The Smoking Man]

Two Words:

Richard Reid

Two more ...

Cat Stevens

 

[Andy]

Dont take the piss you silly french man. Your assuming that all muslims are arabic.

 

[Nomy-the wanderer]

Nice point religion doesn't have to be regional..

 

[brewnog]

It's come to my attention that there are a number of differences between the US and the UK which are clouding peoples' views on the recent events. These aren't points to be argued or nitpicked on, but we should remember:

- "Normal" British police don't carry guns. Those officers which do are extremely highly trained, and are often ex-British Marines, and sometimes ex-SAS.

- 20 degrees Celsius is hot, as far as we're concerned. If I were in London in 20 degrees, I'd be wearing shorts and a t-shirt. Really.

- All this "we're not scared" stuff is nonsense, as far as many Brits are concerned. Many Londoners are scared, and to be honest, they're bloody well allowed to be. Why are they getting on with their lives? Because that's all they can do. For more on this, please see http://iam****ingterrified.com , apologies if the link is filtered. The "why" page is particularly informative.

- We know that US citizens have themselves experienced terrorist attacks on their own soil, and dealt with it in the way they best saw fit. That's just fine. But every single Englishman I've spoken to regarding this incident agrees that pulling that trigger was the right thing to do. They also bear a common sadness that the victim was innocent.

- London is an extremely diverse place, in terms of its multicultural nature. I know white Muslims, black Christians, Asian Christians and, well, white Christians all living in London. Londoners know, perhaps more than residents of any other city, how it's impossible to tell a persons' religion or country of origin just by looking at them. If the police had cause to be tracking this unfortunate chap, let me assure you, it wasn't just the colour of skin which aroused their suspicions.

- What difference does 2, 5 or 8 bullets make anyway? If you want someone dead as quickly as possible, it's not worth the risk of not taking them down quickly enough for the price of a few more bullets. Many would have started to ask questions if they'd used anything less than 5 bullets.


As I say, these aren't points to be argued on, but I think we should just bear in mind some of the cultural differences which we might have been forgetting about.

 

[Smurf]

Dont take the piss you silly french man. Your assuming that all muslims are arabic.

You're assuming UK, british-educated, british citizen, muslims would be suicide bombers.

 

[Andy]

your assuming that many young british muslims arent being trained in these terrorist camps as we speak.

 

[Smurf]

your assuming that many young british muslims arent being trained in these terrorist camps as we speak.

No. I'm not. I have made nor dictated to you any such assumption.


this from another forum

How are we to start with this, yes the police may well be jumpy, they may well be nervous given the situation, but would not a soldier in the field of battle feel even more so, yet they must obey the International Criminal Court Act. How about a householder woken by an intruder in the middle of the night, not knowing what that intruder intended to do they are expected to answer for their actions which will be considered on the cold light of day with 20X20 hindsight.

...

Is running from the police a capital crime now, punishable by summary public execution, these officers must face an enquiry they are trained in the use of firearms, I do not believe that training includes shooting a person who is already on the ground already being restrained by other police.

If we accept the fact that the police on our streets can go around shooting unarmed people and not face the consequences of their actions, yet ask our soldiers in battle situations to account for their every action, and householders to account for their actions against intruders, then I really do not think that will lead to a healthy society more like a police state.

 

[brewnog]

Smurf, I'm sure that the marksmen responsible will have to account for and justify their actions. However, I do not expect them to be convicted of any wrongdoing. We'll wait and see, it's silly to speculate any further at the moment though.

 

[The Smoking Man]

your assuming that many young british muslims arent being trained in these terrorist camps as we speak.

We do know the IRA were training in Libya and yet we got the Shoot-to-kill policy after the peace treaty was signed.

I guess 'shoot-to-kill' is easier to justify when the target doesn't have red hair and freckles and maybe dresses like Ali G.

 

[Andy]

You're assuming UK, british-educated, british citizen, muslims would be suicide bombers

Well yes i am, because yes they are.

Well there at the training camps anyway.

 

[Andy]

I guess 'shoot-to-kill' is easier to justify when the target doesn't have red hair and freckles and maybe dresses like Ali G.

Red hair and freckles is common to a scottish man, not an irishman. And Ali G was pretending to be black, not a muslim.

 

[Art]

We do know the IRA were training in Libya and yet we got the Shoot-to-kill policy after the peace treaty was signed.

No the IRA were receiving arms shipments from Libya. They were not training there though they might have been providing a consultancy service I guess/

I guess 'shoot-to-kill' is easier to justify when the target doesn't have red hair and freckles and maybe dresses like Ali G.

I thought it hilarious when John Stalker was given the role of investigating the 'shoot to kill' allegations.

He came up with the 'wrong' answer (despite British intelligence covertly breaking into his office near the end of his investigation and burning all the files he had compiled) so the British gov't who had appointed him to the task set about demolishing his personal credibility.
One of the slurs they used which I really liked was that he knew criminals. As an assistant chief constable I'd be amazed if he hadn't

Makes you almost nostalgic for the old conservative gov't

 

[The Smoking Man]

Red hair and freckles is common to a scottish man, not an irishman. And Ali G was pretending to be black, not a muslim.

Youre really not familiar with Muslim youth in the UK are you.

Nor the Irish apparently.

 

[Art]

Nor the Irish apparently.

There are actually very few red headed Irish folk.

Unless I just don't see them because they're all too embarrassed to come out in public

 

[Andy]

And you are?

I have many a relative that happen to be irish none of them are ginger, and a good friend of mine lives in an area that's prodominantly muslim and they dress pretty much the same as any normal person.

What dya think Ali G means when he says "is it cos i is black?"

 

[The Smoking Man]

No the IRA were receiving arms shipments from Libya. They were not training there though they might have been providing a consultancy service I guess/

Pentagon officials have released a Top Secret map that illustrates how a type of mortar was first developed by Col Gadaffi before being modified by IRA members trained in Libya in the 1970s for use in Northern Ireland.

Also: Families Acting for Innocent Relatives (FAIR)

And:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Northern_Ireland/Story/0,2763,954530,00.html]An[/PLAIN] IRA intelligence officer who turned Special Branch informer yesterday described how he was interrogated by a member of the Provisional's Northern Command who claimed to have been trained in Libya.

Alexander 'Sandy' Lynch, aged 35, told Belfast crown court: 'He said that it didn't really matter if I recognised him because where I was going I wouldn't be able to tell any one.'

http://www.ulsterflash.iofm.net/plo.htm Students of terrorism can easily trace the IRA's connections to the PLO and its numerous factions back to the 1970s and 1980s, when IRA and PLO operatives trained together in Libya and the Bekaa Valley. Today, IRA involvement is ongoing in Colombia, where al Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas, and Islamic Jihad factions — to name a few — are engaged in illegal arms and drug trafficking and money-laundering. Recent revelations about al Qaeda training methods has been also identified as carrying some of the IRA's trademarks. If the EU and the Bush administration would unify their terrorist lists with "global reach" to include all terrorist organizations — including the IRA, Hezbollah, all Palestinian terror organizations, and the ELN — we might then have a better chance to win the war on terrorism.

Sorry to disapoint you.

 

[The Smoking Man]

And you are?

Apparently ... YES ... http://www.procurealltheinteresting.info/celtic/Irish-Red-Hair.html

What dya think Ali G means when he says "is it cos i is black?"

You've never heard of Asian Dub Foundation?

You are truly out of it aren't you.

Try listening to some of the work by Starring Sanjeev, Meera Syal, Kulvinder Ghir and Nina Wadia.

 

[brewnog]

TSM, from your own link:

Q: What percent of the Irish population have red hair?
A: About 4%

On the other hand, Rosalind Harding (John Radcliffe Institute of Molecular Medicine in Oxford) estimates that approximately 10% of Scots have red hair. (http://www.100megsfree4.com/farshores/nredhair.htm )

What's your point anyway? I'm lost.

 

[The Smoking Man]

- 20 degrees Celsius is hot, as far as we're concerned. If I were in London in 20 degrees, I'd be wearing shorts and a t-shirt. Really.

Yeah ... we used to get the Sheffield crowd in York all the time in the middle of winter wearing t-shirts because they were too cheap to check their coats or they feared losing them when they were paralytic.

We're talking about a Brazilian wearing a sweatshirt.

Was he wrong not to immediately adopt your tolerance to cold?

I was born in Guisborough, just south of Middlesbrough.

I now live in Suzhou and sweat like a pig. I was out last night in my golf shirt and shorts and was getting some strange looks from the locals ... and I've lived here two years so they all know me.

They were all in long sleeved shirts, sweaters and Jeans. (The temperature had dropped down to the upper 70's)

So following my mother's advice is grounds for murder now? "Take a sweater" she would always say.

 

[The Smoking Man]

What's your point anyway? I'm lost.

I couldn't see yours either.

Let's change my original quote to 'brown hair and blue eyes' or 'blonde hair and green eyes' or 'hair dyed purple with a bolt through your nose' then.

What is your point?

The fact is he was tagged because he 'looked asian' and this parctice took place long after the British government had been dealing with terrorism in the streets for decades.

Now they have a shoot-to-kill policy because they have a visible racial minority.

You just attempted to derail the original premise by quoting statistics on the number of people in Ireland with 'red hair' as opposed to the number of people in the IRA who do not appear Asian.

This is South London. Are you trying to tell me there weren't some young white kids wearing hooded sweatshirts and baseball caps in the area?

So what WAS your point anyway?

 

[brewnog]

Yeah ... we used to get the Sheffield crowd in York all the time in the middle of winter wearing t-shirts because they were too cheap to check their coats or they feared losing them when they were paralytic.

Ha, I'll assume you said that with tongue in cheek, and will let it go.

We're talking about a Brazilian wearing a sweatshirt.
Was he wrong not to immediately adopt your tolerance to cold?

No, I suppose not, I guess the temperature issue is a moot point. But none-the-less, if the police thought he looked as though he was trying to conceal something, then I don't blame them for keeping track of him. If the converse had been true, and it had been blatently evident that there was no chance that he was carrying a bomb, he wouldn't have been shot.

The fact is he was tagged because he 'looked asian' and this parctice took place long after the British government had been dealing with terrorism in the streets for decades.

Now they have a shoot-to-kill policy because they have a visible racial minority.

While the threat seems to come solely from people fitting a physical description (whether it be female, short, white, fat, whatever) I don't see any problem in using this information to narrow down searches. If police are looking for a short, blue-eared chap in a wheelchair then it would be prudent not to target tall, green-eared chappettes on stilts, but it's getting silly now, I'm sure you agree.

You just attempted to derail the original premise by quoting statistics on the number of people in Ireland with 'red hair' as opposed to the number of people in the IRA who do not appear Asian.

I wasn't trying to derail anything, I was interested by the Irish/Scottish ginger numbers, since it was a point of discussion (between Art, Andy, and yourself, and not me).

This is South London. Are you trying to tell me there weren't some young white kids wearing hooded sweatshirts and baseball caps in the area?

So what WAS your point anyway?

I am at a loss to see what this has got to do with anything. I didn't have a point I wished to make, which is why I have remained quiet through most of this discussion. I just didn't think your Irish/ginger thing added up. Perhaps Andy is the one to carry this on with?

 

[The Smoking Man]

Ha, I'll assume you said that with tongue in cheek, and will let it go.

Half in cheek ... Hen parties are still a nasty reality ...

No, I suppose not, I guess the temperature issue is a moot point. But none-the-less, if the police thought he looked as though he was trying to conceal something, then I don't blame them for keeping track of him. If the converse had been true, and it had been blatently evident that there was no chance that he was carrying a bomb, he wouldn't have been shot.

They also started off saying 'padded jacket' and then reduced it to 'Fleece' when they realized they had CCTV.

While the threat seems to come solely from people fitting a physical description (whether it be female, short, white, fat, whatever) I don't see any problem in using this information to narrow down searches. If police are looking for a short, blue-eared chap in a wheelchair then it would be prudent not to target tall, green-eared chappettes on stilts, but it's getting silly now, I'm sure you agree.

Not when the physical description includes 1 billion people in India, most of South America, Greece, Italy, Sicilly, Hungary, Spain, Portugal, Filipino, North Western Chinese etc.

Every one of those people now has a reason to worry ... to feel terrorized becasue they fit the 'profile'.

God help them if they feel the need to carry a rucksack.

After all, they did target a Brazilian!

I am at a loss to see what this has got to do with anything. I didn't have a point I wished to make, which is why I have remained quiet through most of this discussion. I just didn't think your Irish/ginger thing added up. Perhaps Andy is the one to carry this on with?

The Red Hair and Freckles was an obscure reference to show the futility of racial profiling. I am sure you see my point when I have just listed over 1/4 of the population of the Earth in the races that meet that profile.

Edit: Brazil included.

 

[brewnog]

Half in cheek ... Hen parties are still a nasty reality ...

Ooh I can imagine! If it's any consolation, they're just as bad when they're here too.

They also started off saying 'padded jacket' and then reduced it to 'Fleece' when they realized they had CCTV.Not when the physical description includes 1 billion people in India, most of South America, Greece, Italy, Sicilly, Hungary, Spain, Portugal, Filipino, North Western Chinese etc.

Every one of those people now has a reason to worry ... to feel terrorized becasue they fit the 'profile'.

While a description fitting so many people obviously can't be used on its own to positively identify someone, you can use it to negatively identify someone who doesn't fit the description. Looking for a male globally still rules over 3 billion people 'in', but it still rules over 3 billion people 'out', if you see what I mean.

After all, they did target a Brazilian! The Red Hair and Freckles was an obscure reference to show the futility of racial profiling. I am sure you see my point when I have just listed over 1/4 of the population of the Earth in the races that meet that profile.

Ok, fair enough. I still reckon the police acted correctly though, it's just a horrible shame that it cost the life of an innocent chap.

Would you mind briefly restating your position, I'm a tad too lazy to trawl through the thread again! Do you consider yourself a Brit (haven't 'met' you properly yet!)? Do you agree with the momentary decision to pull the trigger, even if you don't agree with the operational procedure which occurred up until that point? Just curious!