- #71
Kerrie
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I think we need to get back on topic. This debate is surely a good enough of one to start a whole new topic, but I don't think we should steer Ivan's initial subject off its course.
SGT said:http://www.susanblackmore.co.uk/NS2000.html did research in the field for 30 years, before convincing herself there was nothing to find.
As I said in my previous post, many experiments in parapsychology present methodological flaws. Also, in order to be accepted by the scientific community, the experiment must be reproduced by an independent investigator.PIT2 said:As did Rupert Sheldrake, and he was convinced otherwise.
Back to square one.
On page two i have shown some experiments in which humans could sense what was happening to another human whose brain was being stimulated. They called it:
"Electroencephalographic evidence of correlated event-related signals between the brains of spatially and sensory isolated human subjects."
During such experiments, the human pairs (sender and receiver) felt themselves 'blend into one another'. What kind of mechanism is at work here, and could it relate to what happens to psychic detectives?
I know that psychic detectives sometimes experience the murder through the eyes of the murdered person(or was it through the eye of the murderer?). This definitely sounds like blending into each other, only the other person is dead.
SGT said:In preparation to replicate the Grinberg-Zylberbaum experiment, Todd L. Richards, PhD, et al. from Bastyr University tested the correlation of EEGs taken from different individuals at different instants and noticed that there exists such a correlation, so the null hypothesis invoked by Grinberg-Zylberbaum that no correlation exists if there is no communication between the brains is nonexistent. This does not prove that such communication does not exist, but shows at least one methodological flaw.
https://www.bastyr.edu/research/projects/abstracts/rsj.asp
The proper statistical model must show that the cross-correlation between EEG activity from two human subjects is statistically different from random correlation that we now know can range from -0.37 to +0.46.
CONCLUSIONS: These results indicate that in some pairs of human subjects a signal may be detected in the brain of a distant member of the pair when the brain of the other member is visually stimulated. These data support the findings of similar studies performed in seven laboratories reported in the peer-reviewed literature since 1963. Research in this area should now proceed with investigation of its physical and biologic mechanism, its generalizability to varying populations and relationships, and its clinical application.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15165411
Because Bastyr University—in partnership with University of Washington—has completed some of the most groundbreaking research in this field through the Bastyr/UW Consciousness Science Lab, the producers will be including Bastyr in one of its first episodes.
The Bastyr/UW team tested whether pairs of emotionally bonded participants showed matching (correlated) brain signals even when isolated from each other. While the Neural Energy Transfer study tested pairs who already considered themselves “emotionally bonded,” the SynchroDestiny study recruited experienced meditators trained in a technique called Primordial Sound Meditation, which practitioners say helps to increase a sense of “connectedness” between people, even when physically distant from each other.
Results from both the Neural Energy Transfer and Synchro-Destiny studies showed evidence that correlated EEG and fMRI signals occurred in 15 percent to 30 percent of the participating pairs, depending on the experiment. These results are not only highly significant but also match the results produced in similar experiments at other labs.
http://www.bastyr.edu/development/newsletter/fall04.asp?jump=5
Scottish academics find proof of mediums' ability to use extrasensory perception
Scottish academics claim to have found scientific proof of a 'sixth sense' after completing radical experiments which seek to establish how spiritual mediums obtain information supposedly transmitted from beyond the grave.
The controversial research, led by a University of Glasgow professor, appears to discount the common assumption that mediums are merely picking up signals from body language, or relying on guesswork and prior knowledge.
http://www.sundayherald.com/33398
Brazil psychic seeks $25 mln US reward for Saddam
The U.S. government offered the award for Saddam in July 2003 after the U.S.-led forces occupied the country. He was captured in December of the same year.
The court said Da Luz sent letters to the U.S. government from September 2001, describing Saddam's future hiding place -- a tiny cellar at a farmhouse near Tikrit. He never received a reply.
"His lawyers attest that the author has an uncommon gift of having visions of things that will come to pass. ... Via dreams, he sees situations, facts that will happen in the future," a court statement said.
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N06220016.htm
Ivan Seeking said:In or near Los Angeles around about 1975-1980 IIRC, a woman claimed to see the murder of another woman in a dream.
When Mary Cowset disappeared from Missouri in the company of her boyfriend, Stanley Holiday, her family feared the worst. As explored in the A&E video, "Psychic Sleuths," Holiday was arrested in New Jersey and he called his sister and told her he'd killed Cowset, stabbing her 10 times and dumping her in the weeds in Illinois. Police needed a body, but he wouldn't reveal the information, so they turned to a psychic, Greta Alexander. She said that a body had been dumped where there was a dog barking. The letter "s" would play an important role and there was hair separated from the body. She felt certain the body was in a specific area, although searchers found only a dead animal. She asked to see a palm print of the suspect—her specialty—and the detective brought one. She said that a man with a bad hand would find the body. Then searchers found a headless corpse, with the head and a wig nearby. The man who found it had a deformed left hand. There was water nearby.
http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/forensics/psychics/7.html
Ivan Seeking said:I should finally have some time to dig around for sources soon, but for the moment, if anyone knows a source for this case, I find it to be one of the more compelling that I’ve heard.
In or near Los Angeles around about 1975-1980 IIRC, a woman claimed to see the murder of another woman in a dream. She was so convinced that this was real that she not only drove all around looking for familiar landmarks [as seen in her dream], she eventually went to the police and told her story, at which time she was politely dismissed. A little later, with her kids in the car, she saw something in the hills that border the northern end of the city, or perhaps she remembered something from her dream, but in either case she began driving through the local hills until she saw something definitive – I think a rock formation of some kind. She also allegedly found the body as she had seen it in her dream. When she went to the police and then took them to the body she was promptly arrested. Soon thereafter it was shown that she had absolutely no connection to the crime and was released. The police involved were total believers. The crux of the story hinges on whether she could have been a witness to the crime, or somehow, knowingly or not acquired information about the murder, but the victim and various details of the crime seemed to rule out any possibility that she could have known anything other than what she said.
Les Sleeth said:Do you ever get that feeling like no one is paying any attention to you? Dude, I have cited this case twice, once a couple of months ago, and earlier in this very thread. (Just kidding about my outrage. )
Not only was she vindicated when they found the real murderer, she later won a lawsuit against LA County for the arrest.
In the days after Yvonne was found beaten to death June 9, 2004, in the hair salon she ran on Route 9w in Newburgh, Torch racked his brain. Customers she had quarreled with. Employees with a grudge. Anyone. He also went through weeks of scrutiny by state police and even took a polygraph. But months went by, and there was no answer. A month ago, Torch was contacted by a television show producer. Would he come on "The Montel Williams Show" and discuss his case with a psychic? "I've never known how much stock to put in this stuff," said Torch, who admitted visiting two local psychics in recent months. "But I do believe some people are gifted like that. But probably 99 out of 100 of them are hoaxes." The psychic is Sylvia Browne, who has made her name assisting police in cases that had seemingly gone stone cold. Torch went to the taping in New York City. And he got what he wanted. Browne gave him a name and a motive.
http://www.recordonline.com/archive/2005/11/29/torch29.htm
LEBANON - Lebanon County detectives thought they knew who killed Mark Arnold in 1993, but they didn't know where to find the perpetrator.
Jan Helen McGee told them the killer was at a beach, probably Ocean City, Md., or Rehoboth Beach, Del. Detective Paul Zechman called the police departments there and, sure enough, they found Robert Wise living in Arnold's stolen car at a shopping mall near Rehoboth.
Wise is serving a life sentence in state prison for the murder.
As a result of her help in finding the killer, McGee, who said she has had psychic abilities since childhood, will be featured on The Learning Channel program "Psychic Witness" on Thursday.
District Attorney Deirdre Eshleman said she's not sure she believes in psychics, but she can't dispute the results.
http://www.pennlive.com/news/patriotnews/index.ssf?/base/news/1133173245280510.xml&coll=1
JJbrigham said:There is not one proven case in which a psychic, using special powers or abilities not given to the typical person, has located a missing person, whether dead or alive. It may be possible that some persons have an ability that defies science and logic, but there is no known scientific evidence of this.
Please also note that the FBI and NCMEC (National Center for Missing and Exploited Children) maintain that psychics have never solved a single missing person's case.
Ivan Seeking said:A number of cases have already been cited. Of course no one can prove that psychic abilities were involved, but there is no way to test for this either. What has been shown is that there are cases that apparently defy any known explanations.
If you demand proof that the phenomenon was a psychic event, then you must offer a test that would satisfy this demand or yours is nothing but a religious statement - ie faith based beliefs.
lilrex said:I think that an investigation of this kind needs to be brought into perspective. Anecdotal or not, statistical occurrence is defiantly noteworthy! How many people have seen an atom? Yet we believe it to exist because we have observed things that allow us to deduce its existence. Many things are like that in our universe we know it because it tests with predictability and the like. And those that do the tests and have done the work to observe every facet of proving the existence of the atom are few... do we believe them? Do we believe the evidence? This investigation is like this. And the learned people in these cases are professional investigators. And anyone with the ability to calculate probability of these occurrences can say without doubt that they are possible but very highly unlikely let's look at the facts:
This is the same crackpot conundrum that propels flying saucers. "Unknown" simply means unknown. It does not, on its own, imply something exotic is going on. So really, you are agreeing with JJbrigham:Ivan Seeking said:What has been shown is that there are cases that apparently defy any known explanations.
Yes. So that's it.Of course no one can prove that psychic abilities were involved...
Tests of ESP phenomena are easy. Lots have been performed. All fail.If you demand proof that the phenomenon was a psychic event, then you must offer a test that would satisfy this demand.
To imply that this fact implies that their "psychic powers" were involved is unscientific.There is no conclusive test for psychic phenomena. But so called psychics have found bodies. To simply deny the facts is dishonest.
russ_watters said:This is the same crackpot conundrum that propels flying saucers. "Unknown" simply means unknown. It does not, on its own, imply something exotic is going on.
So really, you are agreeing with JJbrigham: Yes. So that's it.
Tests of ESP phenomena are easy.
That is anything but a test. Specifically, whether or not a body was found says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the method involved.Ivan Seeking said:The only real test for cases like this is whether or not a body was found.
The thread is all about the method, i.e., whether or not psychic means were used to arrive at the location. So, I repeat: the actual finding of the body is essentially irrelevant to the substantiation of claims of psychic ability so long as the method of the finding is untested.Ivan Seeking said:I never said anything about method.
Ivan Seeking said:I never said anything about method. But when they produce a body, esp when done in front of police investigators, the evidence can't be denied. That is clearly a test of their claim. How that might have happened and the credibility of that test is where we properly begin. My only objection in any of this is when people deny the facts. So called psychics do sometimes produce physical evidence to support their claims.
To my knowledge, no debunker has ever duplicated such an event by finding a body when the police have been unable to do so. So the way that I see it, it is the debunkers who are making crackpot claims that they refuse to or are unable support with similar evidence.
ZapperZ said:You are forgetting that in verifying the existence of an atom, there are more than one quantitative and qualitative measurement that was made. An "atom" is a series of properties and behavior that not only have some qualitative description of it, but also quantitative values in how properties depends on various parameters. ALL of these properties must agree to what we describe at an atom. And that is the key here, that there is an underlying mathematical description of it that allows for an unambiguous, and more importantly, repeated tests. Reproducibility is the key aspect of such tests.
Zz.
lilrex said:ZZ,
I am sorry if you dislike the comparison but it was intended to show the fact that people often have faith in things they cannot understand such as atomism Everything that you said in the post is covered by the statement "we know it because it tests with predictability and the like" and if these occurrences were as tested as the atom I am sure that they would be better accepted, but again how long ago was it that Democritus who was insightful in the concepts of atomism was thought to be a crackpot! And it wasn’t until very much later that the idea was accepted as more then just pure speculation. And that just goes to show absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
I hope I made my comparison more clear, and show that I was not saying that the concept of the atom was paranormal. And to show that like atomism psychic phenomena may require an open mind before it can be proved.
Further in the post I made an attempt to show a logical analytical approach as to determine the validity of psychic phenomena with the assumption that the witnessed occurrences were considered at least truthful, and that statistics can put pressure on the balance of truth in the direction that they are not simply chance happenings that were witnessed. Or at least should be enough to prompt a more thorough investigation.
Also in my previous post I did mention that an investigator will only rely on a psychics ranting once, if at all, before ignoring it altogether. So if you take all of the occurrences together and compare it to the chances, is it beyond background noise? I don’t know, I don’t have enough data to say, but it wouldn’t take much for it to be so.
As ever, I wish I was more eloquent in my descriptions as to promote understanding of the points I try to make, but alas, that is a skill I don’t have.
Best regards
ZapperZ said:I'm sorry, but it appears that you haven't done any type of experiment at all based on what you just said.
Nothing even remotely close has been done in terms of the nature of the evidence of psychic phenomenon versus the properties of atoms. I mean, the fact that there is not even anything coming close to a quantitative measurement of a psychic phenomenon is my proof that there's no comparison. It is not even in the same galaxy.
The nature of a valid phenomenon is very clear. You start with showing that it exists, and as more and more studies are done, the properties and behavior of that phenomenon is known more and more. That is why something that started out to be something most people find skeptical later on gets accepted. This is common in science. What is NOT common is for something that goes on for years and years and still cannot make out of first base. For something that has been claimed to exists for that long of a time, psychic phenomenon is still battling the idea to proof that it exists. Forget about trying to study the behavior or trying to quantify any kind of parameters here. It is still trying to be convincing enough for people to accept that it exists.
Now show me how this is similar to the concept of atoms and how the knowledge in that field has evolved? Are we still stuck in trying to convince people that the atom is a valid concept? People who don't accept that can stop taking medicine and forgo all medical procedures. Considering that psychic phenomenon even predates the idea of atoms, and it STILL cannot prove itself to exist, that should ring plenty of warning bells for people who want to accept it. The fact that there are still people who think that it is as valid as any scientifically accepted phenomenon makes it even sadder.
Zz.