UFOs: Generals, Pilots and Government Officials Go On the Record

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Like a person who studies their religion a little too closely and becomes an atheist, I've studied too many UFO reports and now I'm an a-UFO-ist (in the traditional "ET" "secret military craft" fashion). [A-UFO-ists, or non-believers in the various traditional UFO hypotheses] aren't a bunch of fools that simply haven't "seen the evidence [UFO-ists] have seen [as contrasted with those who are UFO-ists, or believers in the various traditional UFO hypotheses]." [A-UFO-ists] have carefully considered [the same evidence you have considered], and [a-UFO-ists] read as many new reports as [a-UFO-ists] can (just like [UFO-ists], I'm sure).

EDIT: removed all traces of pronouns.

It would have been the same had you removed all traces of nouns .. and verbs. It's confusing.

I think what you're saying is you've studied it and don't believe in UFO's. Fair enough.

Others have also studied it and do believe, or at least allow the possibility.

Others have studied science and abandoned religion. And others have studied religion and abandoned science. That's the beauty of this world - there's a lot out there.

BTW, I haven't read many reports at all, though am innately skeptical about the existence of ET's. Far more sensible and mundane to suppose that a small percentage of sightings could well be man made technology, against a background of much - deliberate or otherwise - noise.

 

[FlexGunship]

So some religious painter painted some doves, or something .. I suppose the other thing left to be said is what does this crop of visual aides contribute to the UFO debate here.

Okay, this is getting absurd. The discussion was about whether or not a post by Jreelawg constituted evidence of flying saucers in times prior entertainment media. Specifically, he gave the example of "The Baptism of Christ" by Gelder.

There were also musings about whether or not this was a dominant theme in paintings of that era. I then produced several examples which (arguably) could show that it was a theme for this particular topic of a painting. I also added an example of a disc/disk appearing in an unrelated painting producing the halo around Mary's head.

This is where the discussion is now. If you can not follow it, then do not contribute.

 

[FlexGunship]

Yeah, but as standards of proof go, "didn't intend to paint a dove" is weak.

I think that an artist of his caliber could paint a dove, if he intended to have painted a dove, he would have, but he didn't.

Okay, you're both correct, my argument is incredibly weak since I'm forced to "assume" the intent of the painter; clearly not a good way to further the discussion. Let me see if I can build a bit more on that point.

These paintings were not painted by witnesses of the event. In fact, if you take Biblical mythology as fact and assume the event happened at all, then we are off by some 15 to 17 centuries (allowing for various theories on the birth date of Christ).

In most cases, when an artist chooses to paint this event he chooses to paint a dove in the sky. I've done my best to compile a few paintings that show this. These artists are, presumably, working from the same story, but only one of them has chosen to put a "disk" in the sky, while the others have chosen to place a dove there. In one case we have hands releasing a dove, and in another we have the Abrahamic god watching over as well.

Of course this doesn't constitute proof of poor artistry, not by a long shot; but isn't it possible that we're reading too much into it, and this is just another case of religious symbolism? Here I will show another example of the same thing happening:

Here we see a dove:

Here we see a dove with a laser beam:

http://www.analogartsensemble.net/blog/maryannunciation.jpg

And here we see a saucer with a laser beam:
[URL]http://grhomeboy.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/25-03-08_annunciation_virgin_mary.jpg[/URL]

In all cases, the subject of the painting is the event known as "Annunciation of Mary." This is just another type of religious symbolism in painting.

 

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Okay, this is getting absurd. The discussion was about whether or not a post by Jreelawg constituted evidence of flying saucers in times prior entertainment media. Specifically, he gave the example of "The Baptism of Christ" by Gelder.

There were also musings about whether or not this was a dominant theme in paintings of that era. I then produced several examples which (arguably) could show that it was a theme for this particular topic of a painting. I also added an example of a disc/disk appearing in an unrelated painting producing the halo around Mary's head.

This is where the discussion is now. If you can not follow it, then do not contribute.

Flex, I can follow the discussion, but you're right - it is getting absurd. Your commnets in the latter post are relevant;

Okay, you're both correct, my argument is incredibly weak since I'm forced to "assume" the intent of the painter; clearly not a good way to further the discussion.

I still have NO idea what direct relevance this religious iconology has with the UFO debate, other than some oblique notion that someone might have painted something that denoted UFO's.

But that's OK - in fact, I'm finding the images quite interesting. Actually, I've been looking for one - a portrait of JC where he has his right arm raised, his palm out, and his four fingers and thumb in a particular configuration signifying the Alpha and the Omega .. although someone told me once it was some ET signal .. or something. Do you have that one too ? It would be interesting to examine !

 

[FlexGunship]

I still have NO idea what direct relevance this religious iconology has with the UFO debate, other than some oblique notion that someone might have painted something that denoted UFO's.

I believe the idea is this:

• claim: modern UFO reports get the "flying saucer" image from popular fictional media
• an example of a flying saucer far in the past would disprove this claim (above)

So, I was endeavoring to show that "flying saucers" in religious art have a significantly different meaning to the artist than how we choose to interpret them today. By showing several examples of artists renditions of the same event side by side, I was trying to show that disks (like halos) are often used to represent divinity in the same way a dove is.

But that's OK - in fact, I'm finding the images quite interesting. Actually, I've been looking for one - a portrait of JC where he has his right arm raised, his palm out, and his four fingers and thumb in a particular configuration signifying the Alpha and the Omega .. although someone told me once it was some ET signal .. or something. Do you have that one too ? It would be interesting to examine !

I have heard that claim made about this painting, but I (personally) don't see the resemblance at all. Perhaps it is better shown in a different painting.

Perhaps this is a better example?

 

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Flex said;

but isn't it possible that we're reading too much into it, and this is just another case of religious symbolism?

Yes, I would say it's exactly that, and no more - religious symbolism. I don't see that it's got anything to do with UFO's or ET's.

 

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I believe the idea is this:

• claim: modern UFO reports get the "flying saucer" image from popular fictional media
• an example of a flying saucer far in the past would disprove this claim (above)

So, I was endeavoring to show that "flying saucers" in religious art have a significantly different meaning to the artist than how we choose to interpret them today. By showing several examples of artists renditions of the same event side by side, I was trying to show that disks (like halos) are often used to represent divinity in the same way a dove is.

Praise the Lord - I agree entirely ! :-)

I have heard that claim made about this painting, but I (personally) don't see the resemblance at all. Perhaps it is better shown in a different painting.

Perhaps this is a better example?

Yes, that's the theme, you will note the book held up with the Greek Alpha and Omega. There is another rendition of this theme, however, in an icon commonly seen in Greek Orthodox churches, that is starkly more poignant and precise. The forefinger and the the second finger are tapered to form the Alpha. The next and the thumb form a circle (the top part of the omega) and the little finger forms a straight line (the bottom part of the omega).

In the few occassions I go to church (weddings, etc) it always captivates me - I find it quite beautiful. Some wacko was once trying to convince me that it was a secret coded signal to or from ET's .. or something.

Anyhow, I shall not digress ..

Edit - fixed fingers / thumb

 

[nismaratwork]

Flex said;

but isn't it possible that we're reading too much into it, and this is just another case of religious symbolism?

Yes, I would say it's exactly that, and no more - religious symbolism. I don't see that it's got anything to do with UFO's or ET's.

AFAIK that's his entire point.

I think that an artist of his caliber could paint a dove, if he intended to have painted a dove, he would have, but he didn't.

Yeah, but leaping to "flying machine" seems extreme. Seems like the imagery of a cloud-break mixed with the notion of the "in the heavens above" reaching out to bless with golden light.

 

[nismaratwork]

Praise the Lord - I agree entirely ! :-)



Yes, that's the theme, you will note the book held up with the Greek Alpha and Omega. There is another rendition of this theme, however, in an icon commonly seen in Greek Orthodox churches, that is starkly more poignant and precise. The forefinger and the the second finger are tapered to form the Alpha. The next and the thumb form a circle (the top part of the omega) and the little finger forms a straight line (the bottom part of the omega).

In the few occassions I go to church (weddings, etc) it always captivates me - I find it quite beautiful. Some wacko was once trying to convince me that it was a secret coded signal to or from ET's .. or something.

Anyhow, I shall not digress ..

Edit - fixed fingers / thumb

Explain to your gullible friend that it equals "holy trinity". Hell, I'm an atheist and even I know this ****... what happened to this thread?!

 

[FlexGunship]

Explain to your gullible friend that it equals "holy trinity". Hell, I'm an atheist and even I know this ****... what happened to this thread?!

So, to conclude, I think w can all agree that the UFO phenomenon yields no evidence of extraterrestrial visitation. The best explanation for the prevalence of reports is: confusion, illusion, delusion, and hoax.

Confusion: planes, blimps, celestial bodies, and weather phenomena conspire to confuse our primitive human senses

Illusion: as is so often the case, what you see is not what you get. As established earlier in this thread, relying on a human brain to process data can sometimes yield faulty results.

Delusion: sadly, sometimes people convince themselves that what they've seen is something specific regardless of the evidence for it. The delusion can become to real for some people that they are immune to discussion about it.

Hoax: well, we can all understand this one! Who doesn't want a moment of fame, even if their name isn't attached to it. An anonymous picture here, a nameless video there, and you get to see your work on the news, in documentaries, and even in books.

Until better evidence is available, these seem to be the best explanations of the UFO phenomenon. Let's all keep our eyes out for something truly compelling!

 

[Hurkyl]

So, to conclude, I think w can all agree that the UFO phenomenon yields no evidence of extraterrestrial visitation.

The evidence is inadequate, at worst -- it is definitely not nonexistent.

The best explanation for the prevalence of reports is: confusion, illusion, delusion, and hoax. ... Until better evidence is available, these seem to be the best explanations

They may be the best hypotheses and/or rationalizations, but I don't think they count an explanation unless they actually have evidence supporting them

 

[FlexGunship]

They may be the best hypotheses and/or rationalizations, but I don't think they count an explanation unless they actually have evidence supporting them

Hmm...

"Explanation" does imply a definite result which isn't available in some cases. It can be shown that a significant number are adequately explained by "confusion, illusion, delusion and hoax"... but, you're right, for the remaining 1% it can only be put forth as the best hypothesis.

 

[jreelawg]

Fresh Report of UFO Over China Marks 8th Time Since June
Flashing Lights in the Sky Prompt Shut Down of Airport in Inner Mongolia

http://abcnews.go.com/International/fresh-report-ufo-chinas-skies/story?id=11814100

 

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http://abcnews.go.com/International/fresh-report-ufo-chinas-skies/story?id=11814100

Interesting story. Noteworthy, is ..

The Chinese government had said on previous occasions that the lights claimed to be UFOs were military exercises ..

One side or the others - a definite possibility.

 

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Explain to your gullible friend that it equals "holy trinity". Hell, I'm an atheist and even I know this ****

Don't want to labor on this, but the palm sign thing is not the holy trinity - it is JC saying 'I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end' etc.

... what happened to this thread?!

I think someone started posting lots of religious iconology for some reason, with labels such as .. "doves with laser beam, saucers with laser beam" etc, though it seems now, the opposite was intended. Very apt to confuse, that !

 

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Interesting story. Noteworthy, is ..

The Chinese government had said on previous occasions that the lights claimed to be UFOs were military exercises ..

One side or the others - a definite possibility.

.. and from page 2 of the same report;

A day after the sighting, however, an anonymous source told China Daily that authorities already discovered the identity of the UFO after an investigation but could not publically disclose the information because "there was a military connection."

The pic on the same page, taken by a civilian, doesn't look like venus, or gas, or hallucination. Very interesting. Looks very man made to me, albeit probably on the quiet !

 

[jreelawg]

http://abcnews.go.com/International/fresh-report-ufo-chinas-skies/story?id=11814100

I really don't know how to interpret this one. Are news agencies like ABC, held to strict accuracy policy?

In the video, it looks like the beam on one of the UFOs might be photoshopped, in the way that it appears to be in front of the tree. It could be an illusion, or a camera effect, or something.

One thing odd to me, is the reoccurrence of UFO's at the airport. If the Chinese military admit that some of the lights are the result of a military experiment, why are they doing it over the airport? Accidental? If it was top secret, why would they admit it was them?

 

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I really don't know how to interpret this one. Are news agencies like ABC, held to strict accuracy policy?

In the video, it looks like the beam on one of the UFOs might be photoshopped, in the way that it appears to be in front of the tree. It could be an illusion, or a camera effect, or something.

One thing odd to me, is the reoccurrence of UFO's at the airport. If the Chinese military admit that some of the lights are the result of a military experiment, why are they doing it over the airport? Accidental? If it was top secret, why would they admit it was them?

When they said military, did they say it was theirs ? I couldn't see that. Might have missed it though, even though I've checked.

 

[jreelawg]

When they said military, did they say it was theirs ? I couldn't see that. Might have missed it though, even though I've checked.

Your right, it does just say they claimed that some other lights, thought to be UFO's, were military experiments.

But, it would be kind of a funny thing for a military experiment to be carried out in a foreign county at an airport. Or in your own country at an airport for that matter. Imagine the mess they would cause if they crashed a plane.

 

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Your right, it does just say they claimed that some other lights, thought to be UFO's, were military experiments.

But, it would be kind of a funny thing for a military experiment to be carried out in a foreign county at an airport. Or in your own country at an airport for that matter. Imagine the mess they would cause if they crashed a plane.

Well, even without crashing a plane, it would be pretty stoopid to do military experiments / exercises over your own countries airport - and draw all this attention to your military.

A hoax by Chinese or foreigners would be unlikely too. The authorities would have caught up with them by now, and dealt with them severly and probably, quite publicly. If I wanted to perpetrate a UFO hoax, last place would be over an airport, particularly if I was a Chinese citizen in China.

It doesn't look like a hallucination, or gas, or Venus.

And a mistaken conventional aircraft would have been ID'd by now ? Maybe not - maybe that's the most likely explanation.

 

[FlexGunship]

I really don't know how to interpret this one. Are news agencies like ABC, held to strict accuracy policy?

: Uproarious laughter:

Have you watched MSNBC or Fox? It actually seems as if news agencies are actively trying to avoid unbiased stories.

It doesn't look like a hallucination, or gas, or Venus.

And a mistaken conventional aircraft would have been ID'd by now ? Maybe not - maybe that's the most likely explanation.

Heh... doesn't look like a hallucination. Touche.

One of the images is clearly a long exposure taken of a stationary object. The unsteadiness of human hands of obvious. The problem is, if a single image like that is considered evidence, what other mistakes are being allowed?

 

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: Uproarious laughter:

Have you watched MSNBC or Fox? It actually seems as if news agencies are actively trying to avoid unbiased stories.



Heh... doesn't look like a hallucination. Touche.

One of the images is clearly a long exposure taken of a stationary object. The unsteadiness of human hands of obvious. The problem is, if a single image like that is considered evidence, what other mistakes are being allowed?

A long exposure taken of a stationery object - I'm nearly all the way with you on that. But one thing; would there still be 2 or 3 sets of twin dots (lights) in that case ? Wouldn't they be blurred into a streak too ?


Edit would/wouldn't

 

[FlexGunship]

A long exposure taken of a stationery object - I'm nearly all the way with you on that. But one thing; would there still be 2 or 3 sets of twin dots (lights) in that case ? Wouldn't they be blurred into a streak too ?Edit would/wouldn't

Not necessarily. As an avid astrophotographer, I'm used to seeing it (bump the tripod, or try to catch a quick shot by hand). All it means is that the camera was relatively stationary for a brief moment. If you think of the CCD or CMOS sensor as always accepting photons when the shutter is open, then when more photons hit one area repeatedly, the charge adds up and you get a bring point.

This picture looks as though it was steady twice with some shifting motion in between and before or after. I was just looking through my uploaded pictures to see if I could find a good example, but it turns out I don't usually upload bad pictures. Sorry.

I suggest you try it with a parked car and an exposure on the order of 3 to 10 seconds. If you have a sufficiently dark background, you should be able to create the effect.

 

[603nothing]

my dad may work at a nuclear plant, and he said lately they may have been having oddball briefings on where the plants see themselves in the future and operation changes. he didn't get into too much detail with me (his son, right?) but said things haven't been uniform like they may have been in the past 8 years or so.

 

[FlexGunship]

my dad may work at a nuclear plant, and he said lately they may have been having oddball briefings on where the plants see themselves in the future and operation changes. he didn't get into too much detail with me (his son, right?) but said things haven't been uniform like they may have been in the past 8 years or so.

You're talking about Seabrook, right? I've got friends that work there, and I live nearby. Just SOP. The plant is coming to the end of it's life; that's all. They are working on deciding to either ramp up production of the second reactor (which was never installed), or close out the plant entirely. The state legislature has been dealing with it for a while.

There have been two NRC inspections in the last two months, as well. Maybe you posted in the wrong thread?

 

[603nothing]

^yep that's kind of the impression I got from him, he's about to retire so I think it's ok. funny small world!
I live in salem btw.

 

[jreelawg]

Have you watched MSNBC or Fox? It actually seems as if news agencies are actively trying to avoid unbiased stories.

Yes, but usually when it comes to politics. What can we say about the latest trend of UFO reporting and mainstream news agencies? Has there been a shift? In a few years, will they be reporting ghost sightings? Maybe it's normal, I just hadn't noticed before?

 

[FlexGunship]

Yes, but usually when it comes to politics. What can we say about the latest trend of UFO reporting and mainstream news agencies? Has there been a shift? In a few years, will they be reporting ghost sightings? Maybe it's normal, I just hadn't noticed before?

If you look at the way the media handled the Mexican air force sighting, you'll have a good metric of how UFOs are handled.

1. Instantly report whatever you're told
2. Find anyone claiming to be an expert
3. Broadcast the crap out of it

In the case of the Mexican UFO, ABC had UFOlogists on before anyone bothered to check out their backgrounds.

I remember a particularly spicy (if not slightly unrelated) moment on MSNBC where the anchor woman realized halfway through the interview that the UFOlogist was a total nut job, and kept trying to end the interview.

This also happened when Jack Thompson appeared on several news agency's prime time news as a "school shooting expert" during and after the Virginia Tech massacre to blame video games.

In a Fox News interview conducted several hours after the shooting occurred and before the killer was identified, controversial lawyer Jack Thompson, referred to by Fox News as a "School Shootings Expert", stated that the shootings were motivated from playing violent video games. There were claims that Cho was a devoted player of Counter-Strike, but further investigation revealed little to no proof of gaming activities.[13] Thompson even went as far as blaming Bill Gates for promoting the game and ordering him to take it offline even though Counter-Strike is owned and operated by Valve.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_coverage_of_the_Virginia_Tech_massacre#Inaccurate_media_reports

The major media/news outlets are much more interested in getting your attention first, than being accurate about it. This means that, in order to get the news out quicker, they must sacrifice some accuracy in the process.

 

[jreelawg]

The major media/news outlets are much more interested in getting your attention first, than being accurate about it. This means that, in order to get the news out quicker, they must sacrifice some accuracy in the process.

True, but they usually try and get there facts strait at the same time. To make the story compelling, they have a bunch of opinions and bring about speculation. So they say, "according to blank", but at least they usually try and quote people correctly. If your the journalist, making an untrue statement as a fact is practically suicide.

Claims in this report, are as follows:

A Chinese airport was shut down for more than an hour last month because air traffic controllers saw what they believed to be a UFO buzzing the airport, according to reports out of the country.
..
The alert was triggered by bright lights in the sky that moved erratically, but reports claim that air traffic controllers at the Hohhot Air Traffic Management Bureau spotted the object on their radar.
..
The Chinese government had said on previous occasions that the lights claimed to be UFOs were military exercises, but the government denied the Sept. 11 incident happened at all.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/fresh-report-ufo-chinas-skies/story?id=11814100

Which reports claim?

 

[jreelawg]

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2010-07/09/content_10084698.htm

Here are the two pictures from the China Daily report.

The first is the same as the close up suspected to be a long exposure.

 

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http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2010-07/09/content_10084698.htm

Here are the two pictures from the China Daily report.

The first is the same as the close up suspected to be a long exposure.

The 1st pic - the one on the left, sure seems suspect. Note the building on the left - the roof line seems to have a parallel 'ghost' image - probably a result of double / long exposure. As does the power line cable near it.

Edit;
In fact, I just turned my screen brightness up - the building on the right has the same thing.

 

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Not necessarily. As an avid astrophotographer, I'm used to seeing it (bump the tripod, or try to catch a quick shot by hand). All it means is that the camera was relatively stationary for a brief moment. If you think of the CCD or CMOS sensor as always accepting photons when the shutter is open, then when more photons hit one area repeatedly, the charge adds up and you get a bring point.

This picture looks as though it was steady twice with some shifting motion in between and before or after. I was just looking through my uploaded pictures to see if I could find a good example, but it turns out I don't usually upload bad pictures. Sorry.

I suggest you try it with a parked car and an exposure on the order of 3 to 10 seconds. If you have a sufficiently dark background, you should be able to create the effect.

This picture looks as though it was steady twice with some shifting motion in between and before or after

Sure looks like it.

 

[603nothing]

are there really any pictures out there that would actually be convincing? LOL...please explain

 

[jreelawg]

This picture looks as though it was steady twice with some shifting motion in between and before or after

Sure looks like it.

Yes, but when you compare the "UFO", and the buildings, the degree of shift is only enough to make the "UFO" less wide. And this would also explain why it looks so funny.

I agree it seams suspicious, however according to the source, this picture was taken in a place and time which correlates with the "UFO" that was supposedly caught on radar and caused the airport to shutdown.

 

[FlexGunship]

Yes, but when you compare the "UFO", and the buildings, the degree of shift is only enough to make the "UFO" less wide. And this would also explain why it looks so funny.

We'll I don't suspect the buildings covered much ground during the time of the exposure (maybe ~2 seconds), however the object in the sky is almost certainly moving. Further more you can see that it has a blinking light.

I suggest you compare it carefully to a long exposure image of a known aircraft. This picture was taken with a tripod. Which means it doesn't have the "unintentional blur."

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Long_exposure_photograph_of_aircraft.JPG

Simply image that only a fraction of the time is the shutter left open, and that it is skewed slightly. The UFO picture was probably done with a point-and-shoot which will also artificially raise the brightness on the image if it's average luminance is too low. So some details might be washed out.

I agree it seams suspicious, however according to the source, this picture was taken in a place and time which correlates with the "UFO" that was supposedly caught on radar and caused the airport to shutdown.

Caught on radar? Further supports the airplane theory.

EDIT!

I change my guess to "long exposure helicopter!"