US Presidential Primaries, 2008

[BobG]

Mississippi
Dem: Obama
Rep: McCain

 

[Astronuc]

Mississippi
Dem: Obama
Rep: McCain

Ditto.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Ditto here as well.

When it was announced that Obama had fired a high ranking campaign manager for calling Hillary a monster, Hillary responded RRRRRRAAAAAHHHHHH!

 

[lisab]

Ditto here as well.

When it was announced that Obama had fired a high ranking campaign manager for calling Hillary a monster, Hillary responded RRRRRRAAAAAHHHHHH!

 

[lisab]

There are reports that contract employees have snooped in Obama's passport files:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/20/obama-passport-breached-_n_92668.html

Looks like the motive may have been innocent curiosity, but who knows. Just what kind of data are in passport files? And am I the only one who first thought of Hillary, not the Republicans ?

 

[Evo]

There are reports that contract employees have snooped in Obama's passport files:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/20/obama-passport-breached-_n_92668.html

Looks like the motive may have been innocent curiosity, but who knows. Just what kind of data are in passport files? And am I the only one who first thought of Hillary, not the Republicans ?

Why would you think of Hillary or the Republican party?

Passport information, other than birthday, eye and hair color would have information to which countries you traveled that required a passport or special visa. It's rather well known where he's traveled and it's been an issue about him dressed in traditional tribal garb, which I think is silly. He's just playing to his audience. I guess some people want to try and give more significance to things than are there. He's a politician, he will play all of his cards. Or perhaps I am naive and there really is something more sinister afoot.

 

[lisab]

Whether or not this is serious depends on what data are in the files. I'm sure it's more than what shows up on your passport. He's a senator; certainly, members of Congress get a thorough screening when they take office. I wouldn't expect his security clearance report is in that file, but who knows?

I think of Hillary because I'm not a fan of the Clinton's treatment of those they perceive as rivals. I think of Republicans because this smells Rovian to me.

 

[Evo]

I think of more importance would be where he has traveled. As the link you provided says, it seems no more than idle curiosity on the part of a couple of employees, but what I would guess is that, worse case, they might be looking for something they might sell to the media.

We don't allow conspiracy theories here. Please don't make accusations without strong grounds to back them up. Lisab, you are a super wonderful member. I enjoy your posts, just doing my duty to be equally mean to everyone.

 

[lisab]

You're right, I have no evidence of a directed smear campaign against Obama.

I'll feel more at ease when this is investigated. Like you and the link said, it looks like it could simply be idle curiosity on the part of contracted employees.

The members here and your constant vigilance is what makes PF as great as it is!

 

[Evo]

You're right, I have no evidence of a directed smear campaign against Obama.

I am sure there is a smear campaign! What political race doesn't have one? I just think with Hillary's contacts and the Republican party, they wouldn't have to resort to something this obvious. I'd have to say that I don't see Obama running a smear campign, so if he is, he's doing it well enough to go undetected, which makes him the best candidate.

 

[Poop-Loops]

I am sure there is a smear campaign! What political race doesn't have one? I just think with Hillary's contacts and the Republican party, they wouldn't have to resort to something this obvious. I'd have to say that I don't see Obama running a smear campign, so if he is, he's doing it well enough to go undetected, which makes him the best candidate.

What Obama is doing is playing tug-of-war with smears. Normally politicians smear each other and keep balance. He's just inhaling it all and watching them fall over themselves.

I can guarantee that it was pre-calculated to make the opposition look bad.

 

[Gokul43201]

Whether or not this is serious depends on what data are in the files. I'm sure it's more than what shows up on your passport. He's a senator; certainly, members of Congress get a thorough screening when they take office. I wouldn't expect his security clearance report is in that file, but who knows?

I think of Hillary because I'm not a fan of the Clinton's treatment of those they perceive as rivals. I think of Republicans because this smells Rovian to me.

Not only can passport files be used for political reasons, they have. And no one knows this better than the Clintons:

The news was reminiscent of a breach of Bill Clinton's passport information during the 1992 presidential campaign. The FBI launched an investigation after the State Department reported that someone had ripped out pages from his passport file from the late 1960s and '70s.

The department concluded that a search of Clinton's passport records was an attempt to influence the presidential election, reportedly by trying to show that Clinton tried to seek citizenship in another country to avoid the draft. Clinton was running against President George H.W. Bush.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/20/obama.passport/index.html

There is a very real reason for concern here.

Edit: State Dep. says Clinton's and McCain's files were also breached - thorough investigation to follow: http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/21/obama.passport/index.html

 

[Astronuc]

Obama gets Richardson endorsement
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7308518.stm

Democratic US presidential hopeful Barack Obama is to be endorsed by New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson, himself a former candidate.
Mr Richardson is expected to make his endorsement in Portland, Oregon.
. . . .
"I believe he is the kind of once-in-a-lifetime leader that can bring our nation together and restore America's moral leadership in the world," said Mr Richardson, in a statement quoted by the Associated Press news agency.
. . . .

 

[Gokul43201]

Wow! This is big. A little too late to significantly affect numbers perhaps, but symbolically huge. Bill Richardson ...VP?

 

[turbo]

Wow! This is big. A little too late to significantly affect numbers perhaps, but symbolically huge. Bill Richardson ...VP?

That would be a fine ticket indeed!

 

[Poop-Loops]

Yeah, it would ensure that the KKK or other White Supremacy groups don't assassinate Obama, because then they are left with Richardson. Brilliant!

 

[Astronuc]

With respect to electronic passport files, apparently they contain SS number, contact information, and other very personal information.

Three contractors apparently looked at Obama's file, and one of those apparently looked at McCain's, and possibly one other at Clinton's as part of a training program. They were supposed to look for family members. It appears that it was simple curiosity.

 

[lisab]

With respect to electronic passport files, apparently they contain SS number, contact information, and other very personal information.

Three contractors apparently looked at Obama's file, and one of those apparently looked at McCain's, and possibly one other at Clinton's as part of a training program. They were supposed to look for family members. It appears that it was simple curiosity.

If someone really wanted to smear someone using that information, they could do something like open a credt card using the SS number. Then go online and order a bunch of kiddy porn using the card. Leak it to the opposition, sit back and wait for all hell to break loose.

The term that the State Department spokesman used was "inappropriate curiousity."

Confesssion: I have inappropriate curiousity, too! Like, all the time !

 

[turbo]

Bill Clinton is calling Obama's patriotism into question, saying that McCain and his wife are the candidates who love their country.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/21/another-bill-clinton-mome_n_92818.html

Here is the full quote: "I think it would be a great thing if we had an election between two people who loved this country and were devoted to the interests of the country and people could actually ask themselves who is right on the issues, instead of all this other stuff that always seems to intrude itself on our politics."

With Hillary numerically out of the race, the Clintons seem to be willing to do anything to damage the presumptive Democratic nominee. They may as well join the GOP.

 

[Vanadium 50]

With Hillary numerically out of the race, the Clintons seem to be willing to do anything to damage the presumptive Democratic nominee. They may as well join the GOP.

The numbers being what they are, Sen. Clinton's only chance is to convince the superdelegates that she is electable and that Sen. Obama is not. One way to do this is to make Sen. Obama unelectable.

One might also consider 2012. A Sen. McCain defeat of Sen. Obama (which I think is improbable, but not ridiculously so) would then position her as the front runner with "you could have had Hillary".

Of course, I have no idea what her thinking is. I am just pointing out that if her first goal is to eventually reach the White House (as opposed, to, for example, insure a Democratic victory in 2008), her actions are quite rational.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Bill Clinton is calling Obama's patriotism into question, saying that McCain and his wife are the candidates who love their country.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/21/another-bill-clinton-mome_n_92818.htmlWith Hillary numerically out of the race, the Clintons seem to be willing to do anything to damage the presumptive Democratic nominee. They may as well join the GOP.

Hehe. That wouldn't work over here, patriotism is something that exists but is understated. If you started saying some candidate was not patriotic you'd get ridiculed.

It's pretty lame anyway, since when was patriotism defined in such terms? This just goes to show that Mccain is considered Republican light. Obviously only Republicans are capable of patriotism.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Ever since 911 there has been a strong bias against dissent in this country. Obama takes this head-on, which is one reason why I admire and respect him. He didn't wear a flag on his lapel because he believes that Bush and company have used the flag as a symbol to further an un-American agenda. I agree; in fact I made this point long before Obama came along. In fact I felt so strong about this and was so angry at my country that I threw away my flag long ago.

When his wife made her controversial statements, my first thought was that it would be nice if I could feel proud of my country once again - as I always did until Bush became possible.

When Wright described 911 as America's chickens coming home to roost, my first thought was, well, of course, everyone knows this. There may be nuts out there who are irrational and whose actions can never be justified, but to say that we haven't brought this on ourselves through decades of abusive foreign policies, such as by selling weapons to both sides of a conflict as we did during the Iran/Iraq war, is either disingenuous or naive.

We need a President who is willing to address the serious issues - what is wrong with America. That is true patriotism. Any idiot can waive a flag and claim to be patriotic, as we have seen.

When Obama made his 2002 speech stating bluntly and plainly that the Iraq war was not necessary, it was an incredible act of bravery both politically and personally - true patriotism! What's more, he has been proven right. This is the sort of man who should be steering the ship of State - a man with foresight and who speaks the truth when it counts.

 

[Astronuc]

From the page to which turbo provided the link.

MSNBC is reporting that on the campaign trail today in Charlotte, North Carolina, the former president said a general election matchup between his wife, Sen. Clinton, and Sen. John McCain would be between "two people who love this country" without "all this other stuff that always seems to intrude itself on our politics."

Bill needs to disappear for the next 10 months.

Meanwhile -

Mayhem At Fox News: Anchor Walks Off Set, Wallace Rails Network For "Obama-Bashing"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/21/mayhem-at-fox-news-ancho_n_92743.html

Fox News' very own anchors are speaking out — and walking off — over what they perceive to be "Obama-bashing" on their network.

This morning on "Fox and Friends," Brian Kilmeade walked off the set after a dispute with his co-hosts Gretchen Carlson (she who celebrates deadly floods) and Steve Doocy over Obama's comment that his grandmother is a "typical white person." Kilmeade argued that the remark needed to be taken in context and eventually got so fed up with his co-hosts that he walked off set.

Later, "Fox News Sunday" host Chris Wallace came on the show and railed against "Fox and Friends" for what he called "Obama-bashing."

McCain Spiritual Guide Accused Gov't Of Enabling 'Black Genocide'
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/03/21/mccain-spiritual-guide-ac_n_92757.html

Reverend Rod Parsley of the World Harvest Church of Columbus, Ohio -- whom Sen. John McCain hails as a spiritual adviser -- has suggested on several occasions that the U.S. government was complicit in facilitating black genocide.

In speeches that have gone largely unnoticed, Parsley (who is white) compares Planned Parenthood, the reproductive care and family planning group, to the Klu Klux Klan and Nazis, and describes the American government as enablers of murder for supporting the organization.

OK - so we have flaky candidates with even flakier spiritual guides.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Well I'm leery of patriotism in high doses it leads to nationalism and that is seldom a wise philosophy. But Ivan Seeking raises the point that patriotism isn't just about being proud of your country, it's caring enough to say when your country is wrong.

I think a few Americans summed it up rather succinctly. And as such am going to leave my opinion in their much more capable hands.

G. K. Chesterton:

"My country, right or wrong" is a thing no patriot would ever think of saying except in a desperate case. It is like saying "My mother, drunk or sober."H. L. Mencken:

The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naïve and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair.Henry Steele Commager:

Men in authority will always think that criticism of their policies is dangerous. They will always equate their policies with patriotism, and find criticism subversive.

James Baldwin:

I love America more than any other country in this world, and, exactly for this reason, I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually.

Mark Twain:

The government is merely a servant -- merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn't. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

Ralph Waldo Emerson:

When a whole nation is roaring Patriotism at the top of its voice, I am fain to explore the cleanness of its hands and the purity of its heart.Sinclair Lewis:

When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross.

Theodore Roosevelt:

To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. (1918)

William O. Douglas:

Restriction of free thought and free speech is the most dangerous of all subversions. It is the one un-American act that could most easily defeat us.

And one man who I think is controversial and yet speaks some truths.

Hermann Goering:

Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Raining McCain
by The McCain Girls


That's just not right!

Oh gawd! This is even worse!

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Raining McCain
by The McCain Girls


That's just not right!

No that's wrong, in every sense of the word wrong.

 

[Astronuc]

On foreign policy -

McCain Calls for 'Global Compact' to Resolve Conflicts
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89123951

All Things Considered, March 26, 2008 · Disavowing unilateralism, Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) clarified his foreign policy views on Wednesday, promising, if elected, to consult and work more closely with allies overseas to resolve future conflicts than the Bush administration has done.

Domestically -

McCain Rejects Broad U.S. Aid on Mortgages
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/26/us/politics/26mortgage.html

SANTA ANA, Calif. — Drawing a sharp distinction between himself and the two Democratic presidential candidates, Senator John McCain of Arizona warned Tuesday against vigorous government action to solve the deepening mortgage crisis and the market turmoil it has caused, saying that “it is not the duty of government to bail out and reward those who act irresponsibly, whether they are big banks or small borrowers.”

Mr. McCain’s comments came a day after Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York called for direct federal intervention to help affected homeowners, including a $30 billion fund for states and communities to assist those at risk of foreclosure. Mrs. Clinton’s Democratic opponent, Senator Barack Obama of Illinois, has similarly called for greater federal involvement, including creation of a $10 billion relief package to prevent foreclosures.

As the foreclosure crisis has rippled across the economy, it has thrust itself to the forefront of the presidential race, with Democrats seizing on the issue in urging forceful government steps to alleviate the crisis. Mr. McCain’s remarks Tuesday, to a group of Hispanic businessmen here, signaled a sharpening divide between the two parties’ candidates, with the senator warning against quick, costly government fixes to a crises rooted in the private sector.

“Rampant speculation” on both sides is the root cause of the crisis, Mr. McCain said. He placed part of the responsibility for the mortgage mess on lenders, who he said had grown “complacent” in a rising market and as a result acquired a “false sense of security” that caused them to “lower their lending standards.”

McCain is definitely an improvement over the current president.

 

[turbo]

McCain is definitely an improvement over the current president.

Possibly, but I am quite leery of him after learning that he believes that Iran is training al Qaeda terrorists. His lack of understanding of the political dynamics of the ME is quite disturbing. If he is elected, he will be responsible for cleaning up Bush's mess, and he hasn't been doing his homework. His much-vaunted foreign-policy credentials seem quite thin.

 

[mheslep]

Possibly, but I am quite leery of him after learning that he believes that Iran is training al Qaeda terrorists. His lack of understanding of the political dynamics of the ME is quite disturbing.

Where did he say that?

 

[Gokul43201]

Where did he say that?

Looks like bait... but I'll bite.

In an interview with Hugh Hewitt, speaking from Amman (Mar 17):

As you know, there are al Qaeda operatives that are taken back into Iran, given training as leaders, and they’re moving back into Iraq.

http://hughhewitt.townhall.com/talk...tentGuid=ae522a49-6c82-4791-a76e-44ebb718bf32

And again, in a press conference (of sorts), also, I think, in Amman (Mar 18):

[It's] common knowledge and has been reported in the media that al-Qaeda is going back into Iran and receiving training and are coming back into Iraq from Iran, that's well known. And it's unfortunate.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/03/19/dems-seize-on-mccains-iran-gaffe/

 

[turbo]

mheslep, it was all over the news during his ME trip. I thought that everybody had heard these gaffes by now. At one point, Lieberman stepped into correct him, but that certainly should not have been necessary. When a presidential candidate spouts absolute nonsense as "common knowledge" I have Bush "yellowcake/WMD" flashbacks.

 

[Astronuc]

Al Qaida (basically a Sunni group) is a big problem for Iran (predominantly Shii), especially near the borders of Iraq and Afghanistan!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Some talking heads say that McCain has been skewing his language to confuse the issue of who is causing the problems, but he carried it so far that he managed to confuse himself.

My dad is easily confused at his age as well. He is about the same age as McCain.

 

[turbo]

I don't think age is the problem, Ivan - it's ignorance. McCain repeated those untruths several times over the course of days. His grasp of the sociology and history of the Middle East is woefully inadequate. Furthermore, by painting Iran as the region's bad guys, he gives Bush and Cheney more cover for their wish to attack Iran. I really don't want McCain to succeed Bush, because I don't expect that his foreign policy will be an improvement.

 

[Gokul43201]

I find it really hard to believe that McCain can be so disconnected as to get this wrong. Unfortunately, I can't come up with any good excuses for him (not after he said the same thing twice).

Nearly as hard to believe is the possibility that he's somehow bought the al qaeda mantra that the administration has been peddling, when any reasonably well-informed person knows that AQI is responsible for only a tiny fraction of the violence.