US Presidential Primaries, 2008

[Ivan Seeking]

Relying on a single word, "elected", isn't going to provide much of a loop-hole since the intent is clear.

That point is certainly debatable. If they had said that a President couldn't serve more than two terms, it would be clear, so one has to wonder why that isn't the language used.

As for the 12th amendment, I don't see that eligibility is an issue because succession isn't ruled out under the terms of eligibility.

 

[mheslep]

Yes but its practical a show stopper for the pres. candidate and his/her party because they be nominating a VP that then could only hold office in an emergency and would then be forced to leave office come the first election. Imagine Johnson succeeding Kennedy and then not being able to stand for election a few months later. The pres. candidate would appear nutty or desperate for making such a choice.

 

[BobG]

Yes but its practical a show stopper for the pres. candidate and his/her party because they be nominating a VP that then could only hold office in an emergency and would then be forced to leave office come the first election. Imagine Johnson succeeding Kennedy and then not being able to stand for election a few months later. The pres. candidate would appear nutty or desperate for making such a choice.

The knowledge that trying it would create some kind of Constitutional crisis that would have to be resolved by the Supreme Court to decide who was actually in charge of the country after a Presidential death or disability isn't a bigger show stopper?

Obviously, the issue would have to be decided in the Supreme Court immediately after the election. If the Supreme Court ruled the Vice President was eligible to serve, then he'd serve and be able to replace the President, if necessary. If the Supreme Court ruled he was ineligible then I guess confirming a replacement VP would be the new President's first order of business.

Either way, it's one of those things that are never going to be tested.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

According to the CNN poll of polls, Clinton's lead in Pa has dropped to 4%.

 

[G01]

According to the CNN poll of polls, Clinton's lead in Pa has dropped to 4%.

Maybe the PA primary will be a more interesting battle than first thought. The only thing I can say is that on April 22, my vote is going to Obama.

 

[Astronuc]

The Constitution of the United States of America

Preamble:

We the people of the United States,
in order to form a more perfect union,
establish justice,
insure domestic tranquility,
provide for the common defense,
promote the general welfare, and
secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity,

do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


I'd like to see each candidate explain his or her views on just how he or she would:

facilitate or encourage a more perfect union, a greater level of justice (for all), greater domestic tranquility, a reasonable common defense in a sustainable way that doesn't compromise the other goals or drain economic resources, promotion of the general welfare (by virtue of education and healthcare), and

the securing of the blessings of liberty to all and our posterity

 

[turbo]

I wonder if PA voters are going to hear about Bill Clinton's work with Yucaipa Companies (from which he earned over $15M) and their connection with an Italian developer who really ticked off Roman Catholics in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh by buying up distressed Catholic churches and then failing to make the investments needed to refurbish them?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/04/10/clinton-firms-deal-with-i_n_96032.html

As is mentioned in the above article, slick Willie has collected $800,000 from a free-trade group promoting the Columbian free-trade pact that Hillary supposedly opposes. The Clintons have no shame, nor (it appears) ethical scruples.

 

[turbo]

I'd like to see each candidate explain his or her views on just how he or she would:

facilitate or encourage a more perfect union, a greater level of justice (for all), greater domestic tranquility, a reasonable common defense in a sustainable way that doesn't compromise the other goals or drain economic resources, promotion of the general welfare (by virtue of education and healthcare), and

the securing of the blessings of liberty to all and our posterity

Unfortunately, our government has been co-opted by business and their lobbyists, who have managed to marginalize the value of individuals (the real source of governmental authority) and instead craft a system in which the wants of the wealthy and the corporations are paramount.

The only candidate that might be able to craft a reasonable reply to your request is Obama. Edwards certainly could have, had he survived the primary process.

 

[Gokul43201]

I wonder if PA voters are going to hear about Bill Clinton's work with Yucaipa Companies (from which he earned over $15M) and their connection with an Italian developer who really ticked off Roman Catholics in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh by buying up distressed Catholic churches and then failing to make the investments needed to refurbish them?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/04/10/clinton-firms-deal-with-i_n_96032.html

As is mentioned in the above article, slick Willie has collected $800,000 from a free-trade group promoting the Columbian free-trade pact that Hillary supposedly opposes. The Clintons have no shame, nor (it appears) ethical scruples.

If Hillary only desisted from talking about a return to the times of Bill, and sleazing her way into the accomplishments of the Bill Clinton presidency, this would be (or should be) a non-issue.

 

[chemisttree]

I wonder if PA voters are going to hear about Bill Clinton's work with Yucaipa Companies (from which he earned over $15M) and their connection with an Italian developer who really ticked off Roman Catholics in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh by buying up distressed Catholic churches and then failing to make the investments needed to refurbish them?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/04/10/clinton-firms-deal-with-i_n_96032.html

As is mentioned in the above article, slick Willie has collected $800,000 from a free-trade group promoting the Columbian free-trade pact that Hillary supposedly opposes. The Clintons have no shame, nor (it appears) ethical scruples.

AND Bill Clinton recommended that the Columbians hire Mark Penn as the lobbyist to represent their interests!

 

[Astronuc]

I heard someone say that the Clintons (plural) opposed the Colombian trade deal.

Bill is playing both sides?

 

[turbo]

AND Bill Clinton recommended that the Columbians hire Mark Penn as the lobbyist to represent their interests!

Who had to fire Penn after Clinton (the candidate) repudiated the trade deal. There is no way that we can let this incestuous, unethical, lying crowd back into the White House. Everything they say or do has to be parsed and analyzed.

Now Bill is back in hot water with Hillary for not only elaborating on her lies about the Bosnia trip, but adding more lies, saying that she was tired when she told the sniper-fire story and apologized immediately. In fact, she repeated that story over and over again for months, and never apologized for lying, only admitting that she "misspoke" after several witnesses (and media coverage) flatly contradicted her. The Clintons are lying slime and should never be handed control of our country.

 

[BobG]

Who had to fire Penn after Clinton (the candidate) repudiated the trade deal. There is no way that we can let this incestuous, unethical, lying crowd back into the White House. Everything they say or do has to be parsed and analyzed.

Now Bill is back in hot water with Hillary for not only elaborating on her lies about the Bosnia trip, but adding more lies, saying that she was tired when she told the sniper-fire story and apologized immediately. In fact, she repeated that story over and over again for months, and never apologized for lying, only admitting that she "misspoke" after several witnesses (and media coverage) flatly contradicted her. The Clintons are lying slime and should never be handed control of our country.

He's probably in hot water for suggesting she's so old that she's suffering from dementia. If she can't remember things at 11:00 PM, what's she going to do when she gets that 3:00 AM phone call? Especially if she can't tell night from day (I think she made her Bosnia comments in the morning).

I'm not sure what's up with Bill Clinton, but he's sure not an asset. In any event, it's getting to the point that it's not quite fair to hold his comments against her.

 

[Gokul43201]

I'm not sure what's up with Bill Clinton, but he's sure not an asset. In any event, it's getting to the point that it's not quite fair to hold his comments against her.

It is! She is, after all, running her campaign on his coattails.

 

[Astronuc]

On the Defensive, Obama Calls His Words Ill-Chosen
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/13/us/politics/13campaign.html

For a second day, Mr. Obama sought to explain his remarks at a recent San Francisco fund-raiser that small-town Pennsylvania voters, bitter over their economic circumstances, “cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them” as a way to explain their frustrations.

Acknowledging Saturday that “I didn’t say it as well as I should have,” he explained his remarks by focusing on his characterization of those voters’ economic woes. He meant, he said, that voters in places that had been losing jobs for years expressed their anxiety at the polls by focusing on cultural and social issues like gun laws and immigration.

But now Hillary is portraying herself as a pro-gun churchgoer!

Mrs. Clinton suggested that Mr. Obama saw religious commitment, hunting and concern about immigration as emotional responses to economic strain rather than as deeply embedded values.

“I grew up in a church-going family, a family that believed in the importance of living out and expressing our faith,” she said at a rally in Indianapolis. “The people of faith I know don’t ‘cling to’ religion because they’re bitter. People embrace faith not because they are materially poor, but because they are spiritually rich.”

Later in the day, in Valparaiso, Ind., she reminisced about her father teaching her how to shoot when she was a young girl.

Although she has been a strong supporter of gun control in the past, urging Congress to “buck the gun lobby” as first lady, Mrs. Clinton said, “Americans who believe in the Second Amendment believe it’s a constitutional right; Americans who believe in God believe it’s a matter of personal faith.”

So Clinton is running as a Republican now? I hope folks see through the charade.

 

[G01]

So Clinton is running as a Republican now? I hope folks see through the charade.

Unfortunately, first-hand experience tells me that many Pennsylvanians aren't seeing through it. Heck, the fact that her dad was born in Scranton is enough for people around here to run to the Clinton camp without even thinking twice. Though her lead in the poles has been dropping significantly on a daily basis, so anything can still happen.

I really wish Pennsylvania can be the state that can end this drawn out battle that Hilary is probably not going to win anyway. C'mon PA, don't let me down!

This is another thing about Hilary that drives me nuts. The fact that Hilary's family is from Scranton gets people here all excited about voting for her. How many states is she going to claim as home? Arkansas, Illinois, Pennsylvania, New York... Don't people see she is just playing them for their votes?!

 

[lisab]

I cracked up when I heard Clinton call Obama "elitist"!

Right, a mixed-race kid raised by a single mom...that's just what I think of when I hear the word "elitist" !

 

[mheslep]

I cracked up when I heard Clinton call Obama "elitist"!

Right, a mixed-race kid raised by a single mom...

Yes, he's come a long way. He's also Ivy League Columbia / Harvard Law educated, lives in a multi million home, and gave the recent those-poor-misguided-yocals comment from a no press allowed, $2300/plate fund raiser at the Getty mansion / residence on billionaires row in SF.

 

[turbo]

Yes, he's come a long way. He's also Ivy League Columbia / Harvard Law educated, lives in a multi million home, and gave the recent those-poor-misguided-yocals comment from a no press allowed, $2300/plate fund raiser at the Getty mansion / residence on billionaires row in SF.

It's funny to watch somebody who has worked their ass off being described as "elitist" while people whose family wealth bought their entries into schools and organizations (does Bush come to mind?) are given a free pass as down-home guys because they get photo-ops cutting brush. Stupid!

 

[G01]

The local news here is really making a big deal about Obama's remarks. I think this is going to hurt him in PA.

 

[Poop-Loops]

I haven't been keeping up since it came out that he made those remarks, so I don't know what he's done since then, but I think he should have just made a speech and just stood his ground, making the people of Penn. look like the victims (he was apparently trying to portray it that way anyway) and that he was right.

It's better to be pissed off than pissed on. Right now, it's the latter for him.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

We will have to see if this effects the polling data. Obama was poised to tie or pass Hillary in Pa. right about election time.

But, if Clinton or McCain continue to claim that Obama is out of touch when he says that people are angry, it will hurt them more than it will hurt Obama. Many people are feeling angry, bitter, disillusioned, and disenfranchised. Also, what Obama said was true. When people feel angry and disenfranchised, say for example when their towns are decimated by bogus "free trade" agreements, they tend to project their anger onto other issues. How dare he speak the truth!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The American Research Group showed that Clinton and Obama were tied in Pa. a week ago, but now gives Clilnton a twenty point lead.
http://americanresearchgroup.com/

 

[turbo]

Clinton NEEDS (viscerally) to be president. Her go-to bomb is that Obama cannot possibly be elected because he is black. She will only drop this clam if she is on her last legs, but make no mistake - she WILL drop it if it appears that the delegate count is unsurmountable. I can't get fired for saying that Clinton is a monster, so CLINTON IS A MONSTER, with no accountability to her party and no coat-tails for congressional candidates to ride. She has such high negatives that her election would ensure another 4 years of Bush-like gridlock in Congress and no real roll-back of his policies.

I should take this time to mention that Clinton is the richest Swift-Boat target that the Rovians have ever seen, and she stands NO chance of beating McCain in the general election. Voters are sick of her and Slick Willie, and they will accept a lot of denigration about her with no thought.

 

[chemisttree]

Obama's bitter comment.

""You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton Administration and the Bush Administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are going to regenerate and they have not. And it's not surprising, then, they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

That sounds a lot more like Obama's neighborhood than "these small towns in Pennsylvania" or "a lot of small towns in the Midwest". I really think that Obama believes what he said... that people get angry and bitter in these small towns and cling to their religion, guns and xenophobia as a result.

There is no other way to interpret this other than to say that it is elitist liberalism. I think that Barak's empty vessel is filled with some bad ju ju...

 

[Ivan Seeking]

What is elistist about making factual observations?

 

[drankin]

Come on, Ivan. You usually back these things up with sources, stats, etc. Don't fail us now.

 

[drankin]

I'll tell you what rubs me the wrong way about Obama's statement, he is suggesting that it's the governments job to give people work, and that just bugs me. Let alone suggesting that because the government didn't make former jobs reappear they became bitter and began clinging to guns, religion, blah-blah-blah. So when Obama's president everyone can quit going to church, the gun range, and hug illegal immigrants (ok, I made that up). Dumb. Nothing factual about his statement. He just made this crap up and now he's eating his words. Not that they all don't say stupid crap anyway...

 

[quadraphonics]

I'll tell you what rubs me the wrong way about Obama's statement, he is suggesting that it's the governments job to give people work, and that just bugs me.

No, he's pointing out that the availability of jobs is a major factor in determining peoples' attitudes towards politicians and parties. Regardless of what anyone believes the proper role of government in the economy to be, it is a certainty that a bad job market hurts the political standing of the incumbent, and a good job market helps it. As a corollary, it is also a certainty that politicians and parties are going to try to exploit those sentiments. This is true of every polity, everywhere in the world, at all times in human history. That Obama aknowledges these dynamics does not make him some kind of socialist; it only makes him honest.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

he is suggesting that it's the governments job to give people work, and that just bugs me.

I read his statement over and over again, and I could not find that anywhere. I think you are reading that into what he did say.

 

[Poop-Loops]

I'll tell you what rubs me the wrong way about Obama's statement, he is suggesting that it's the governments job to give people work, and that just bugs me.

You have a point. I mean, it's not like the government is there to protect the welfare of the people or anything.

While we're at it, we should quit taxing foreign imports. It's not the government's job to give people incentive to buy domestic goods. That would mean people would have jobs! And we don't want to do that.

 

[drankin]

"You go into these small towns in Pennsylvania, and like a lot of small towns in the Midwest, the jobs have been gone now for 25 years and nothing's replaced them. And they fell through the Clinton Administration and the Bush Administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are going to regenerate and they have not. And it's not surprising, then, they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

Ok, he is saying that people get bitter because past administrations have said that, "somehow these communities are going to regenerate and they have not." He is saying that these administrations said these things and they didn't come true so, AS A CONSEQUENCE, the people "get bitter (and) they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

Anti-trade sentiment, I can buy that, anti-illegal-immigration, I can buy that, but guns? religion? "people who are not like them"? as if that has anything to do with what any administration "said" or whether they have their old jobs or not. It suggest that if you are a gun owner or a church goer it's because you are bitter because of what an administration said. That's rediculous not to mention insulting the geniuness of peoples beliefs. I didn't want to say it but that is certainly what I would consider "Elitist", or at least condescending.

 

[drankin]

I read his statement over and over again, and I could not find that anywhere. I think you are reading that into what he did say.

Ok, probably true. It seems to suggest that to me but no it doesn't say that.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

...(CNN) — Despite a weekend of negative coverage following his controversial remarks about some small town Americans, Barack Obama appears to be holding steady or making gains in the next three primary states, according to a just released poll.

Most surprisingly, the new LA Times/Bloomberg poll shows Obama ahead of Hillary Clinton by 5 points in Indiana (40 to 35 percent)

... The poll also shows Clinton only holds a 5 point lead in Pennsylvania (48 to 43 percent). That margin is among the slimmest measured between to the two candidates and is significantly less than the double digit lead Clinton held there two weeks ago.[continued]

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/

A couple of pundits stated recently that a consensus is emerging this will be decided in Indiana.

 

[turbo]

Anti-trade sentiment, I can buy that, anti-illegal-immigration, I can buy that, but guns? religion? "people who are not like them"? as if that has anything to do with what any administration "said" or whether they have their old jobs or not. It suggest that if you are a gun owner or a church goer it's because you are bitter because of what an administration said. That's rediculous not to mention insulting the geniuness of peoples beliefs. I didn't want to say it but that is certainly what I would consider "Elitist", or at least condescending.

As you know, I am about as pro-gun as can be, and I had a very different reading about Obama's statements. When working-class people find themselves impotent to protect themselves from wage erosion, job exportations, lack of health care, etc, how do they direct their political activities? They direct them in ways that they are most passionate about. In some cases, it can be religion (not necessarily fundamentalist, but you'll find most fundamentalists in poor regions as opposed to cities), it can be in fundamental personal rights (and to many people the right to be armed is important), and it can be in reactions against legal or illegal immigration (especially if these people blame foreigners for the loss of their jobs). These may not be used as a big general paint brush against all people in areas that have lost jobs and never recovered, but Obama's comments are accurate and we need a president who can see this.

Obama worked for church groups organizing displaced steel-workers after graduating from Harvard Law School and he knows something that many Americans do not. Having a secure and well-paying job pulled out from under you (especially if you went into the steel mills directly out of HS, and were middle-aged when the mill closed) is the most traumatic thing that can happen to you, as a bread-winner - apart from the death of your wife or children. You have lost the ability to provide for your family and have no reasonable prospect of regaining that income, so you have to consider selling your house (in a depressed local market due to the factory closings) and chasing a job somewhere else, with no relevant skills or training, since steel mills aren't exactly clamoring to hire and you don't have post HS education. To cap it off, you can't afford to help put your children through college and get the education that you never got. Obama is no fool, but his comments are being portrayed as if he is elitist and out-of-touch. Clinton is a Republican.