Virginia Tech Shootings: Eyewitness Reports & Updates

  • Thread starter robphy
  • Start date
In summary: This type of thing Must be covered by the press. I find your reasoning rather weak at best. Its nothing to do with the freedom and coverage of information why people do these types of things. IMO I would put the blaime directly on the Guns and culture of violence in the USA, and not on the Press.
  • #71
mattmns said:
Wow that is crazy! Why did no one attempt to take down the gunman? I can't say exactly what I would do in the situation, since I was not in it, but I would probably try to take the guy down. Why not? If I die, well then I don't have to worry about school :smile: and if I am successful then I am a hero :smile:

It's not easy to take someone down by yourself. Now, getting someone to work with you to take him down is probably just as hard.

Sure you can try, but if you're going to make a hopeless attempt, you're better not do anything at all. If anything, that will make the gunman angrier and shoot everyone in sight.
 
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  • #72
What a horrid thing, my heart goes out to all the students and families who have lost so much today. I can only imagine the fear of all the parents, who watched this happen on TV today. A grim day indeed.
 
  • #73
Why not at least make an attempt. The gunman is said to have shot over 60 people. What are these people doing? Just sitting around waiting to be shot? I guess it does not make sense why a group of people did not rush him. Yes, he has a gun, but eventually he has to reload (granted that may take only a few seconds), but if a large group of people are rushing this guy, he is going down. Of course I am assuming he is not using an automatic weapon (I think the news said he was using a 9mm).
 
  • #74
mattmns said:
Why not at least make an attempt. The gunman is said to have shot over 60 people. What are these people doing? Just sitting around waiting to be shot? I guess it does not make sense why a group of people did not rush him. Yes, he has a gun, but eventually he has to reload (granted that may take only a few seconds), but if a large group of people are rushing this guy, he is going down. Of course I am assuming he is not using an automatic weapon (I think the news said he was using a 9mm).

Not a whole lot of people are going to intentionally turn their risk of death into a certain death by charging at a crazed man weilding a loaded weapon. From the sound of it, they didn't have time to react. It's easy to sit here reading about it from the safety of our homes and saying, "I'd so jump that guy" but a lot harder to react in any way at all when frozen in fear or caught amidst chaos.

Of course, we also don't know that anyone DIDN'T try to do just that, and ended up on the victim list because of it.
 
  • #75
Oh boy... this is just insane. The school should've reacted after the first shooting... I can't imagine what happens if something like this happens in my university.

Something must be wrong with American... first Columbine, now this?! the whole idea of shooting innocent for nothing is just absurd. I've never heard of news like that in China...
 
  • #76
mattmns said:
Why not at least make an attempt. The gunman is said to have shot over 60 people. What are these people doing? Just sitting around waiting to be shot? I guess it does not make sense why a group of people did not rush him. Yes, he has a gun, but eventually he has to reload (granted that may take only a few seconds), but if a large group of people are rushing this guy, he is going down. Of course I am assuming he is not using an automatic weapon (I think the news said he was using a 9mm).

I think you may have hit on something when you asked why a *group* of people didn't rush him.
In a crazy panicked situation like this, how will a conglomorate of untrained civillians manage to form a cohesive group? (Something as simple as "C'mon you guys, rush him with me!" Then you have to hope that enough people will be behind you... And you only have what? 25 seconds?)
 
  • #77
Awful story. It doesn't seem like the kid had any intention of letting anyone escape.

mattmns said:
Wow that is crazy! Why did no one attempt to take down the gunman? I can't say exactly what I would do in the situation, since I was not in it, but I would probably try to take the guy down. Why not? If I die, well then I don't have to worry about school :smile: and if I am successful then I am a hero :smile:

If you did that, you'd probably have to throw something at him fast, and hope a different guy is close enough to tackle him. The likelihood of getting shot is still tremendously high. And that still relies on the fact that you wouldn't be frozen solid. All in all a bad situation. If it were me, I'd probably jump out the window or hide.

It's amazing how the actions of one person can affect an entire nation. It's tragic that this guy decided to make such a negative impact.
 
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  • #78
Yes, it is easy to sit here and say I would have rushed him, and I am not trying to blame any of the students, or put them down in anyway if they did not attempt to take the guy down. In all reality I would probably be running for cover. I guess I was never really detailed enough in what I was saying. I would not just come out and start rushing this guy head on, as has been said, that would be almost certain death. But I would still think that someone would be behind him, or in some sort of position to hit him from behind, and perhaps at least knock him down for a few seconds. Of course we don't have every little detail, so it is hard to say. I would still think that I would try to do something. I am not trying to sound brave or anything, but I think it is much better to risk a few lives trying to take this guy out in order to at least attempt to stop the death of 60+.
 
  • #79
mattmns said:
Yes, it is easy to sit here and say I would have rushed him, and I am not trying to blame any of the students, or put them down in anyway if they did not attempt to take the guy down. In all reality I would probably be running for cover. I guess I was never really detailed enough in what I was saying. I would not just come out and start rushing this guy head on, as has been said, that would be almost certain death. But I would still think that someone would be behind him, or in some sort of position to hit him from behind, and perhaps at least knock him down for a few seconds. Of course we don't have every little detail, so it is hard to say. I would still think that I would try to do something. I am not trying to sound brave or anything, but I think it is much better to risk a few lives trying to take this guy out in order to at least attempt to stop the death of 60+.

I would imagine he was using surprise to accomplish his goal. I would imagine he was quickly moving into classrooms and unloading on unsuspecting people. I don't know the specifics of the weapons he were using, but a safe bet is 13 round clips. With two pistols, that would have been plenty for a classroom. Being caught off guard with a madman with two pistols would be hard pressed to organize a rush on the gunman.

I'm with you all the way on trying to do something to this guy. I would hope that I would try something, but it really depends on the situation. If he did this with just pistols, then yeah... there had to be many points of vulnerability on his part. Still, the odds of taking down a decently skilled gunman are very slim. Distance is safety for the gunman, and if he holds distance... there ain't much you can do, unless you have a gun right back.
 
  • #80
FrogPad said:
I would imagine he was using surprise to accomplish his goal. I would imagine he was quickly moving into classrooms and unloading on unsuspecting people. I don't know the specifics of the weapons he were using, but a safe bet is 13 round clips. With two pistols, that would have been plenty for a classroom. Being caught off guard with a madman with two pistols would be hard pressed to organize a rush on the gunman.

I'm with you all the way on trying to do something to this guy. I would hope that I would try something, but it really depends on the situation. If he did this with just pistols, then yeah... there had to be many points of vulnerability on his part. Still, the odds of taking down a decently skilled gunman are very slim. Distance is safety for the gunman, and if he holds distance... there ain't much you can do, unless you have a gun right back.

30 round clips are available for most any semi automatic hand gun.
 
  • #81
FrogPad said:
I would imagine he was using surprise to accomplish his goal. I would imagine he was quickly moving into classrooms and unloading on unsuspecting people. I don't know the specifics of the weapons he were using, but a safe bet is 13 round clips. With two pistols, that would have been plenty for a classroom. Being caught off guard with a madman with two pistols would be hard pressed to organize a rush on the gunman.

I'm with you all the way on trying to do something to this guy. I would hope that I would try something, but it really depends on the situation. If he did this with just pistols, then yeah... there had to be many points of vulnerability on his part. Still, the odds of taking down a decently skilled gunman are very slim. Distance is safety for the gunman, and if he holds distance... there ain't much you can do, unless you have a gun right back.

You said it, "...a gun right back". It's hard to kill people when they are shooting back at you.
 
  • #82
edward said:
30 round clips are available for most any semi automatic hand gun.

True that...



If he had two pistols, 60 rounds is just scary.
 
  • #83
the point is... he had TWO pistols (it was all over NBC news)... and it was crazy... he was an asian too, what a disgrace to the asian race! (not trying to be racist... I heard that he is a Chinese too... man...)
 
  • #84
tim_lou said:
he was an asian too, what a disgrace to the asian race! (not trying to be racist... I heard that he is a Chinese too... man...)

makes me ashamed... we're supposed to be the ones taking advantage of the university system, not destroying it
 
  • #85
Guess he didn't feel he needed to tow the line.
 
  • #86
edward said:
30 round clips are available for most any semi automatic hand gun.

Uhh... I can reload almost as fast as it takes for someone to make one shot. This guy seems like he may have been pretty well trained. Sometimes when I'm out on the range shooting around or during a course, I hope to god that not many people with evil intentions can shoot like that. Luckily most of these freaks just buy or find a firearm and just go shooting people with it.

Also, if someone who has enough brains wants to kill a lot of people, that person will be able to. If guns weren't readily available, this kid could have blown up the freakin classroom.
 
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  • #87
What a terrible, sad incident :frown:

Will lessons be learnt?

I stand by what I said when the Amish shootings took place -- not matter how responsible you are, if you own a gun you're part of the problem; if there's a demand, there will be more guns readily available for crazy, selfish scum.
 
  • #88
A tragic incident. My sincerest condolences to everyone involved. These events are a shock to everyone.

Surely the US needs to take a look at their gun laws? This simply cannot continue.
 
  • #89
J77 said:
What a terrible, sad incident :frown:

Will lessons be learnt?

I stand by what I said when the Amish shootings took place -- not matter how responsible you are, if you own a gun you're part of the problem; if there's a demand, there will be more guns readily available for crazy, selfish scum.

Since cars cause about 3 times as many deaths as murders every year, doesn't it make sense to say "if you own a car you part of the problem"

We also need to outlaw mashed potatoes, you are aware that over 90% of the prison population eats mashed potatoes, clearly if we outlaw them we can empty the prisons.

Can we please put an end to the purely emotional nonsense and really talk about the problem.
 
  • #90
drankin said:
You said it, "...a gun right back". It's hard to kill people when they are shooting back at you.

I cannot support turning our university campuses into armed camps.

The real question is how to stop the mass murders. It is sort of like an airplane accident, it gets lots of coverage and convinces many that airplanes are dangerous. Statistics tell us otherwise, but still 200 dead makes headlines, just like this tragic event makes head lines. But really considering the vast number of US citizens who own weapons the number who commit murder (either mass or single) is very small.

I saw a show recently about teenage thrill killers (they don't all use guns) seems that they have some distinctive brain patterns. There could be some amount of detection and prevention if this type of analysis were used on a regular basis. Of course this does bring up privacy issues.
 
  • #91
J77 said:
What a terrible, sad incident :frown:

Will lessons be learnt?

I stand by what I said when the Amish shootings took place -- not matter how responsible you are, if you own a gun you're part of the problem; if there's a demand, there will be more guns readily available for crazy, selfish scum.
Totally aggree:approve:

Its capitalism gone wrong, gun ownership. The want for indivudal rights and perceived protection at the expense of the community as a whole. :mad:
 
  • #93
A terrible tragedy. :frown:

mattmns said:
Why not at least make an attempt. The gunman is said to have shot over 60 people. What are these people doing? Just sitting around waiting to be shot? I guess it does not make sense why a group of people did not rush him. Yes, he has a gun, but eventually he has to reload (granted that may take only a few seconds), but if a large group of people are rushing this guy, he is going down. Of course I am assuming he is not using an automatic weapon (I think the news said he was using a 9mm).

mattmns, are you for real? I mean, I'd like to see you in such a situation (God forbid, of course!). It's not really a movie situation or something, you know. I believe such things happen about "20 times faster" in real life than in movies, btw.
 
  • #94
mattmns said:
Why not at least make an attempt. The gunman is said to have shot over 60 people. What are these people doing? Just sitting around waiting to be shot? I guess it does not make sense why a group of people did not rush him. Yes, he has a gun, but eventually he has to reload (granted that may take only a few seconds), but if a large group of people are rushing this guy, he is going down. Of course I am assuming he is not using an automatic weapon (I think the news said he was using a 9mm).

This is a classic example of Prisoner's Dillema: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma. In the chart given in Wikipedia, replace stays silent with forms into a group, betrays with stays single, and the rest accordingly (unscathed / wounded / critically wounded / death). Each individual's most appealing choice is to stay still and hope the murderer attacks others. But this is not the most appealing choice for the group as a whole.
 
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  • #95
Anttech said:
Totally aggree:approve:

Its capitalism gone wrong, gun ownership. The want for indivudal rights and perceived protection at the expense of the community as a whole. :mad:

Obviously you simply do not understand what this country is about. Individual rights IS the single most important thing we have. I am appalled at the willingness of people to sacrifice rights for imagined safety.



I for one am sure glad that you do not have a vote here.
 
  • #96
Integral said:
Obviously you simply do not understand what this country is about. Individual rights IS the single most important thing we have. I am appalled at the willingness of people to sacrifice rights for imagined safety.



I for one am sure glad that you do not have a vote here.
I know what your country is about, I just don't agree with sacrificing the safety of the community for a totally selfish "right" Even though I understand the concept I don't think it works, yesterday was an example.

Honestly I am sure glad you, don't have a vote here. Selfishness doesn’t have a place in our community.
 
  • #97
Integral said:
<snip>imagined safety.</snip>

Lets focus into this word. Europe is at least twice as big as the USA population wise, Western Europe is about the same size. Now can someone please show me an example of the last time what happened yesterday at a School of learning happening here? ----

Imagined safety is just wrong, it is safer to not have the public armed. That doesn't mean you have to hand in your Guns, but all it means is that *we* live in a safer society than you do. If you are willing to live in a culture that glorifies violence and veers more and more to the Masculine side, then fine. But I object to people trying to make out that a society that has loads of weapons in circulation is a safter place, its not.

That isn't all directed at you Integral, but others here too whom are wanting to make an argument to justify that the American Constitution can NEVER be at fault, when in the context of safety for the community as a whole, it most certainly is at fault. However if you deem your *individual* right of gun ownership more than the safety of others around you so be it… Its your bed, enjoy lying in it. I would be much more worried about the patriot act and things like this encroaching on your Indvidual freedoms than Gun ownership.

Right from the start I stated that this debate is pointless, because American Society is what it is, and won't change. Even if you were to ban guns now, its too late The gene not only is out of the bottle but seems to be part of the ruling party and has charmed the masses :smile:
 
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  • #98
The shootings now look to be a domestic violence crime. Being a surriver of this crime, it feels to me that the shooter was so mad at his victim that he had to kill her over and over. (Not including the man he shot who was trying to protect her.)
I am thinking how far away from ending this kind of behavior we are, remembering not too long ago talking to a man who admitted to being an abuser and stating "my wife did not seem to mind being hit."
My heart is breaking as myself and so many women, children and males as well, look for ways to recover from the PTSD that results from surriving domestic violence.
thank you.
so sorry.
s
 
  • #99
Anttech said:
I know what your country is about, I just don't agree with sacrificing the safety of the community for a totally selfish "right" Even though I understand the concept I don't think it works, yesterday was an example.

Honestly I am sure glad you, don't have a vote here. Selfishness doesn’t have a place in our community.

The only selfish person is the crazy one going on the killing rampage. You can't honestly be judging an entire country based on the actions of a maniac, can you? Lots of people get killed in car accidents every day too, and the occassional nut job goes out and intentionally runs people over in their car, should we prohibit everyone from owning cars because some nuts use them as weapons? There are people behind bars who have used far more mundane objects as weapons as well...baseball bats, pipes, hammers, scissors, steak knives, beer bottles. Based on your logic, we should prohibit all members of society from owning any of those either because some nuts will use them to hurt other people. We already have too many unnecessary laws based on the "one bad apple spoils the barrel" approach to legislation. Firearms are not just weapons used for killing other people, they are tools that every day citizens do own and use safely and for their intended purpose, just as they might own any number of other tools. People use them to hunt for food, ranchers use them to protect their livestock from predators. Yes, they are a dangerous tool, and like any dangerous tool, should be used with training, and some of the licensing requirements to ensure everyone who owns one has proper training could be tightened up, just as people should go through proper training and licensing to drive a car. That doesn't stop someone who does not have a license from getting in a car and mowing down pedestrians on a sidewalk. It doesn't stop the moron from cutting his own fingers off with a chain saw either, or from killing his buddy while using a nail gun. Wrapping everyone up in bubble wrap and putting them in bare, padded rooms so they can't hurt themselves with anything and not allowing them near anyone else so someone else can't hurt them with anything is not the way to deal with these problems. There are a lot of things that can be lethal when misused, but that doesn't mean they should be prohibited to protect everyone from the idiots and crazies.


People here are acting like this is a common problem happening all over the US, and I think those people watch too many movies and think they are real. As the news has been pointing out, the last time any of this magnitude happened on a college campus was in the 1960s with the bell tower shooter in TX. Someone so deranged as to go on such a killing spree, and with such planning (they are reporting that he had put chains on several of the exits from the engineering building so occupants could not escape) is a vast exception to the norm. We are a huge, densely populated nation with a free press. With so many people in the population, there will be psychos who inflict injury on others, and they will find a way to do it regardless of how many restrictions you put on access to weapons. And, when it happens, the press will report it, and will report it far and wide.

And those from other countries need to understand that the entire basis of this country is that our founders didn't like the way government ran where they came from and wanted something different, and those of us who choose to continue to live here do value our freedoms above all else. We don't want to be just like you. You are as free as your government allows you to be in choosing how your country is run and to demand whatever laws you want to have where you are. Likewise, do NOT tell us what laws we should or shouldn't have or what rights we should or shouldn't have in our own country. It is not selfishness to hold individual rights in the highest regard; it is the best way we know to protect the society as a whole from dictators who would trample the basic rights that are the basis of human dignity.

And, I think it is appalling that people are so busy strumping about on a political platform before the bodies of those killed are even cold, rather than being concerned for the victims and their families, classmates and co-workers. There are still students in the hospital in serious condition, still people on that campus grieving the tragedy, still people trying to piece together the details and motives of what happened.

As for what people should or shouldn't have done to prevent this or stop it sooner, it's far too early to be guessing about that. Facts and evidence still need to be gathered, and the puzzle pieced together. The first reports are not necessarily the most accurate. And, often in cases like this, there is nothing that could have been done. People seem to need to blame other people for not knowing someone was planning something like this, or making it easy to get access to the weapon of their choice, or for not stopping them sooner, but sometimes there are not obvious warning signs, no way to know someone is going to snap, no way to know how they will react, no way to know when, where or how they will do what they do. The only person who could have known and done something to change the course of events was the shooter himself. Pointing fingers and thumping chests isn't going to bring back the dead, or help the living victims recover and move forward. That is where the focus should be right now, in getting their lives pieced back together.
 
  • #100
Anttech said:
Lets focus into this word. Europe is at least twice as big as the USA population wise, Western Europe is about the same size. Now can someone please show me an example of the last time what happened yesterday at a School of learning happening here? ----

Imagined safety is just wrong, it is safer to not have the public armed. That doesn't mean you have to hand in your Guns, but all it means is that *we* live in a safer society than you do. If you are willing to live in a culture that glorifies violence and veers more and more to the Masculine side, then fine. But I object to people trying to make out that a society that has loads of weapons in circulation is a safter place, its not.

That isn't all directed at you Integral, but others here too whom are wanting to make an argument to justify that the American Constitution can NEVER be at fault, when in the context of safety for the community as a whole, it most certainly is at fault. However if you deem your *individual* right of gun ownership more than the safety of others around you so be it… Its your bed, enjoy lying in it. I would be much more worried about the patriot act and things like this encroaching on your Indvidual freedoms than Gun ownership.

Right from the start I stated that this debate is pointless, because American Society is what it is, and won't change. Even if you were to ban guns now, its too late The gene not only is out of the bottle but seems to be part of the ruling party and has charmed the masses :smile:

I agree completely that more guns do not make for a safer society. Guns are inherently dangerous that is understood, but it is a danger I am willing to live with.

Imagined safety because you are in more danger everyday driving to campus then you are from this this type of event. Why do you not address the real dangers of our society then then concentrating on this one minor one. The fact is that the vast majority of gun owners are responsible law abiding citizens.

I would rather look for real solutions rather then applying ineffective band aids.

What is the problem? I believe it is a lack of social responsibility, a quick example is something I noticed on my morning walk yesterday. Some wonderful individual had walked down the sidewalk and snapped a limb off of each recently planted trees. This type of meaningless and pointless act of vandalism is symptomatic of the lack of caring for things which in the worst case turns into mass murder.

Rather then adding more and more laws in futile efforts to legislate morality we need to find a way to TEACH morality and social responsibility. How do you do that? I have no idea.

I am very concerned about the Patriot act but it is the same problem, the govt taking more and more of the individual rights that have made this country what it is.

PS: My spell checks would go a lot faster if you would spell check. :smile:
 
  • #101
Integral said:
Obviously you simply do not understand what this country is about. Individual rights IS the single most important thing we have. I am appalled at the willingness of people to sacrifice rights for imagined safety.

I for one am sure glad that you do not have a vote here.

When does the right of one individual over-ride the rights of the many he murdered? Get real. The root of the problem lies in giving easy access to dangerous weapons to any dog & its aunty.

desA

[edited by Russ_Watters]
 
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  • #102
A gun ban in this country would in all likelyhood cost many many lives. This is a sacred cow that best not be touched. Those proposing such a ban are tantamount to gluttons. The carnage yesterday was not enough for them ... they want more of the same, but on a greater scale, for it don't take a rocket scientist to figure the ramifications of such a ban. You think everyone will turn their pop gun in? That's when the secret militia forms! Thats when it's open season on the politician. Will you feel safer then?
 
  • #103
And those from other countries need to understand that the entire basis of this country is that our founders didn't like the way government ran where they came from and wanted something different, and those of us who choose to continue to live here do value our freedoms above all else. We don't want to be just like you. You are as free as your government allows you to be in choosing how your country is run and to demand whatever laws you want to have where you are. Likewise, do NOT tell us what laws we should or shouldn't have or what rights we should or shouldn't have in our own country. It is not selfishness to hold individual rights in the highest regard; it is the best way we know to protect the society as a whole from dictators who would trample the basic rights that are the basis of human dignity.
Hate to burst your Bubble, but it IS selfish to think of only ME ME ME ME. MY individual freedoms, MY right to carry weapons, MY right to do this that and the other thing...
Again the *dictators* nonsense, America being taken over by a Dictator. Just look at your recent (last 100 years) History to see how absurd that sounds.
Your gun laws perhaps would have stopped that happening a few hundred years ago, but not now. Plus the chance of that happening are between 0 and nill and nill just left town.
 
  • #104
Hate to burst your Bubble, but it IS selfish to think of only ME ME ME ME. MY individual freedoms
I resemble that remark. This is the example of a true patriot. You should be so proud. What do you propose ... Mein Kampf?
 
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  • #105
mattmns said:
Wow that is crazy! Why did no one attempt to take down the gunman? I can't say exactly what I would do in the situation, since I was not in it, but I would probably try to take the guy down. Why not? If I die, well then I don't have to worry about school :smile: and if I am successful then I am a hero :smile:

If you consider airplane evacuations as a somewhat similar event, the natural response is shock and disbelief that the event's actually happened. Most passengers typically remain seated until either the flight attendents give them guidance or other passengers start evacuating.

Even after a person starts moving, their thought process still jumps back and forth between irrelevant 'normal' options and more relevant response to the crisis at hand. In fact, about half of passengers try to take their carry-on baggage with them during real emergency evacuations.

Both situations are similar in that the people involved have had virtually no training. Airline passengers get the pre-flight safety briefing, but almost no one listens. Fortunately, people sitting in an exit row are more likely to listen to the safety briefing and read the safety card. Almost half of the people sitting in the exit row have at least some clue how the exit should open. Fewer know when to open the exit (in a couple cases a passenger opened or attempted to open an emergency exit when flames were present outside the exit - in one case, passengers actually evacuated through flames with several receiving severe burns).

I think you can virtually guarantee none of the students had ever received a briefing on what to do if a gunman suddenly entered the room and started firing. Recovering their senses quickly enough to jump out of a window is a pretty exceptional response in that situation. Enough students recovering their senses and coming up with a group plan is just unrealistic.

However, in emergency evacuations from planes, every once in a while a person does take some responsibility for themselves and the group and act quite heroically to help speed up the evacuation. You might get someone like that in a mad gunman scenario, but having even one person react that way would be pretty exceptional.

http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2000/SS0001.pdf

Not particularly scientific, but a pretty riveting article by one of the survivors of Flight 1420 in Little Rock. Their plane slid off the runway and down an embankment and caught fire. Passengers evacuated the plane in total darkness (the emergency lighting didn't work) into a swampy field in the middle of a hail storm. Since they slid off the runway, controllers weren't expecting an emergency landing. It took 45 minutes for emergency personnel to respond. AA Flight 1420
 
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