What can you expect in the Food Thread on PF?

[turbo]

If you come up during warm weather, we can visit Oak Pond Brewery, sample ales and lagers, then repair to my back deck with a few growlers, and I'll BBQ some stuff - shrimp, chicken, steaks, cheeseburgers, whatever. Come in late summer and I'll have all the fixin's for fresh-made salsa, too.

Growlers are the 1/2 gallon refillable jugs. Duke will join us on the deck too, but he's more of a "barker". Not a mean bone in his body.

 

[nismaratwork]

I'm surprised my post was even coherent. I steamed them on low long enough to partake in 64 ounces of my super crafted wheat beer. That might have had a little to do with why it tasted so good to me.

Whatever works, and frankly I made it... and they're good!

 

[nismaratwork]

I don't have tonight's dough recipe at hand - it's in one of my wife's countless notebooks and folders. This particular dough was a spread-and-bake variant, and she got the recipe from my cousin's wife (handed down through her family). No rising, so she made the dough and assembled the pizza in one go. Doughs that need to rise generally mean that I have to punch down the dough lightly and toss it to get it to assume a circular shape and thin uniformly. If dough is punched down too aggressively or is handled with too much flour, the crust can be too dense and tough. I am the pie-tosser around here. My cousin's young daughters used to love watching me make pizzas for our annual Christmas get-togethers. There are not many traditional pizza-makers around here, so they never saw dough getting spun and tossed, except maybe on TV.

Ahhh that sounds excellent. When I was quite the little kid my father owned and ran a pizzaria, so I was cutting dough and proofing it pretty early. For all of that, I don't think I've ever seen a real toss for a pizza that's going to be cooked. I've seen tossing for show, but it really does make a great crust in my view. Just a little extra olive oil on the edges about halfway through makes the crust... mmmmmm.

Still, there's a LOT to be said for pizza you can make in one go; you're more likely to experiment and that's always a good thing. I'm very impressed that you have dough-tossing skills... it looks so much like "hey I could do that", and yet, it sooooo isn't.

 

[turbo]

Still, there's a LOT to be said for pizza you can make in one go; you're more likely to experiment and that's always a good thing. I'm very impressed that you have dough-tossing skills... it looks so much like "hey I could do that", and yet, it sooooo isn't.

It's a knack. The dough is very delicate at that point, but if you have done a decent job with yeast, kneading, rising, etc, there is enough internal bonding from the gluten to allow you to handle the dough gently without damage. Support the dough on the backs of your hands and let the dough stretch via gravity, roll your hands outward using your knuckles to stretch the dough (gently) and give the dough a spinning toss to even out the thinning of the dough and catch it (again) on the backs of your hands. Let the dough do that work - you just have to know what you can get away with. While I was teaching myself that handling technique, I sometimes had to patch little holes or tears, but soon it was second-nature. My cousin's girls loved it.

BTW, the first time I hand-tossed dough for them, my cousin (whom I had known since childhood) asked "Where did you learn that?" "Did you work at a pizzaria?" Since I had been working mill-jobs and construction jobs since I was a teen, she was pretty surprised.

 

[Evo]

I don't think I've ever seen a real toss for a pizza that's going to be cooked. I've seen tossing for show,

Tossing is just for show. I had read many years ago about it being nonsense. TV changes everything. There was also a documentary recently with chefs from Italy and they were laughing when someone suggested that they toss the dough into the air.

Traditional pizza dough.

http://www.fornobravo.com/pizza/pizza_dough.html

 

[nismaratwork]

Tossing is just for show. I had read many years ago about it being nonsense. TV changes everything. There was also a documentary recently with chefs from Italy and they were laughing when someone suggested that they toss the dough into the air.

Oh, it's not Italian in origin, but it actually does render a pretty nice crust. Sure, it's showmanship, but it does actually do the job that would otherwise be done with multiple passes through a roller.

Personally, I stretch my dough on a wooden board, and olive oil (EVOO in this case ) is your best friend. I love Italian pizza, but it's true now that pizza is a continuum of 'flat-breads' from the classic Italian pie, to Chicago deep-dish. So... not authentically Italian, but it is authentically American-immigrant.

 

[turbo]

Tossing is just for show. I had read many years ago about it being nonsense. TV changes everything. There was also a documentary recently with chefs from Italy and they were laughing when someone suggested that they toss the dough into the air.

You may believe that if you wish. My experience is that if I make yeasty pizza dough with high-gluten flour, I can never get a decent crust by rolling it. It is too "springy" and it tends to contract and thicken when being spread out on the pizza pan. Tossing the dough gives me nice consistent thin round crusts with thicker edges. Just the way I like it. The thick edges dam up the melted cheese and toppings as the pizza cooks - especially important if you bake on a stone or large ceramic baking tile.

 

[Evo]

You may believe that if you wish. My experience is that if I make yeasty pizza dough with high-gluten flour, I can never get a decent crust by rolling it. It is too "springy" and it tends to contract and thicken when being spread out on the pizza pan. Tossing the dough gives me nice consistent thin round crusts with thicker edges. Just the way I like it. The thick edges dam up the melted cheese and toppings as the pizza cooks - especially important if you bake on a stone or large ceramic baking tile.

No real chefs toss dough. It's tv hype.

http://www.fornobravo.com/pizza/pizza_dough.html

http://pizzatherapy.com/dough.htm

 

[nismaratwork]

You may believe that if you wish. My experience is that if I make yeasty pizza dough with high-gluten flour, I can never get a decent crust by rolling it. It is too "springy" and it tends to contract and thicken when being spread out on the pizza pan. Tossing the dough gives me nice consistent thin round crusts with thicker edges. Just the way I like it. The thick edges dam up the melted cheese and toppings as the pizza cooks - especially important if you bake on a stone or large ceramic baking tile.

I need a drooling smiley asap. You go for the Greek style, kind of hybridized with the Italian. I'm making dough tomorrow and it's going to get very interesting.

I'm not going to toss it however... that knack I do not have, but I'm good at manual stretching. The trick is to start with a HEAVY pin... I use stone/marble/granite and just work it over. Then you just have to work from the center, flouring on the edges, and oiling the center. It sounds like you are one with the gluten, so I suspect you'd be good at that method.

 

[nismaratwork]

No real chefs toss dough. It's tv hype.

http://www.fornobravo.com/pizza/pizza_dough.html

Good point...


COUNTERPOINT!

http://www.chow.com/food-news/55514/how-to-toss-pizza-dough-and-why-you-should/



*daffy voice* "You realize of course, that this means war?"

 

[Evo]

Good point...


COUNTERPOINT!

http://www.chow.com/food-news/55514/how-to-toss-pizza-dough-and-why-you-should/



*daffy voice* "You realize of course, that this means war?"

Chowhound doesn't have experts, I've seen some really idiotic things there. It's a blog.

Again, how to make pizza dough. http://www.suite101.com/content/first-pizza-made-naples-famous-a37224

 

[turbo]

There are definite advantages to tossing pie-dough. It's not just for show. Like many cooking techniques there is a method to the madness. Nice thin crispy center, thicker, tender edges... plus you can handle wetter dough without rolling it out, which would make for a tougher, more glutinous crust. The more compression and force you apply to pizza dough, the tougher and chewier it cooks up.

 

[Evo]

There are definite advantages to tossing pie-dough. It's not just for show. Like many cooking techniques there is a method to the madness. Nice thin crispy center, thicker, tender edges... plus you can handle wetter dough without rolling it out, which would make for a tougher, more glutinous crust. The more compression and force you apply to pizza dough, the tougher and chewier it cooks up.

Do you have any real sources that say tossing is better than authentic rolled and pressed pizza? Pressing the dough into place does not toughen it at all because you are not working the dough.

Throwing it into the air and beating it with your fists is just silly. If that's how you want to do it, whatever, there is no benefit.

 

[turbo]

Chowhound doesn't have experts, I've seen some really idiotic things there. It's a blog.

"Experts" are people who actually make pizzas and try whatever works. Any "expert" cook that uses the works "always", "never", etc is a sham. Cooking might not be rocket-science, but it is a whole lot more complex than many people realize, and it is silly for people to apply hard-and-fast rules to denigrate others that do things differently than they do.

Remember RR telling people to cook only with "Extra-Virgin Olive Oil"? Such "experts" can safely be tuned out.

 

[turbo]

Do you have any real sources that say tossing is better than authentic rolled and pressed pizza?

What do you consider a "real" source? Only the ones that support your assertion? Because there are hundred of sites that explain the advantages of spreading pizza dough by tossing and spinning it. Here are a few. I doubt that they are all bogus.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...h&aq=3m&aqi=g3g-m1g-v6&aql=&oq=tossing+pizza+

 

[Evo]

"Experts" are people who actually make pizzas and try whatever works. Any "expert" cook that uses the works "always", "never", etc is a sham. Cooking might not be rocket-science, but it is a whole lot more complex than many people realize, and it is silly for people to apply hard-and-fast rules to denigrate others that do things differently than they do.

Remember RR telling people to cook only with "Extra-Virgin Olive Oil"? Such "experts" can safely be tuned out.

RR is a tv personality, not a chef.

Italians don't toss dough, except in tourist traps. I've been to Italy, engaged to an Italian living in Italy for 8 years. They don't toss dough.

If you have fun tossing dough, do it. It's just not traditional.

 

[turbo]

RR is a tv personality, not a chef.

Italians don't toss dough, except in tourist traps. I've been to Italy, engaged to an Italian living in Italy for 8 years. They don't toss dough.

Sounds like the local "Greek Pizzas" which are rolled out and cooked in pans. Not good.

Here is a guy who is taking a scientific approach to pizza dough.

http://www.prodoughusa.com/doughforming.html

By the way, he has been the world pizza champion 5 times, twice in Italy, as per his old web-site.

http://www.prodoughusa.com/tony_gemignani.html

 

[nismaratwork]

I was kidding about the war! Come on lady and gent... we're talking pizza here not foreign policy.

So... let's see, I wouldn't say "better"... I'd say different. It's rougher and less consistant, and more glutonous than rolled dough, but more regularly shaped than board-stretched dough.

For instance: http://recipes.howstuffworks.com/tools-and-techniques/tossing-a-pizza-101.htm

Not Just for Fun

It might seem like tossing pizza dough is showboating -- a fancy way to shape and stretch out pizza dough to fit the pan. But dough tossing isn't just cool to watch, it's actually the gentlest way to form a crust. Some pizza manufacturers use a machine press or dough sheeter to form pizza crust. These techniques are efficient, but the dough dries out more, which results in a crunchier crust. When dough is tossed by hand, it doesn't lose quite as much moisture, so the crust is softer.

In fact, managing the moisture of the dough is the trick to tossing. Spinning the dough through the air helps create that round shape, but in addition, the airflow over the dough's surface dries it out just enough to make it less sticky and easier to handle. And the perfect amount of airflow makes for a perfectly crispy crust. Another benefit of hand-tossing is a non-uniform crumb. This means that every pizza crust is unique -- tender in some spots and crisp in others. The outer edge of a hand-tossed pizza has a lighter and higher crust than those formed by other methods (like machine or press).

So now that you know why you should hand toss your dough, let's talk about how you do it.

Now to me that says that Turbo-1, having that skill, should toss dough more often than not, but I shouldn't. Clearly the benefits only emerge when there is real care and skill.

Note the agreement as to the results of a tossed dough even from different sources:

http://www.ehow.com/how_2066953_toss-pizza-dough.html

Tossing pizza dough isn't just a way to show off your culinary skills. When you toss pizza dough instead of rolling it, you create a crust that is both more tender and more crisp. Also, the irregular nature of a hand-tossed pizza dough will make each bite a slightly different experience.

I'd say... think of it like not over-stirring batter, and creating that primed crust.

 

[Evo]

I was kidding about the war! Come on lady and gent... we're talking pizza here not foreign policy.

So... let's see, I wouldn't say "better"... I'd say different. It's rougher and less consistant, and more glutonous than rolled dough, but more regularly shaped than board-stretched dough.

For instance: http://recipes.howstuffworks.com/tools-and-techniques/tossing-a-pizza-101.htm



Now to me that says that Turbo-1, having that skill, should toss dough more often than not, but I shouldn't. Clearly the benefits only emerge when there is real care and skill.

Note the agreement as to the results of a tossed dough even from different sources:

http://www.ehow.com/how_2066953_toss-pizza-dough.html


I'd say... think of it like not over-stirring batter, and creating that primed crust.

LOL. There is a video on ehow about how to truss a turkey and it's completely wrong. But it was hysterical to watch, again, it's just random people uploading shiite, not experts. I don't know if it was taken down or still misleading people. Instead of the traditional turning the wings back and under, he was lasoing them and tying them to the turkey. buwahaha

The internet is full of misinformation. Usually the most prominent and easiest to find pages are the crackpot stuff.

 

[turbo]

It's similar to the hands-off method of kneading traditional French breads, nismar. Keep the dough really wet, and form the gluten bonds by picking up the dough, letting gravity stretch it, and folding it. Then turn the dough and repeat again and again. My wife learned this method from the King Arthur DVD on artisan breads (taught by a safety engineer for Navy's nuclear subs), and she makes the lightest French boules with tasty crust. Next summer, when the seminar for grains, milling, and baking returns, she is going to pick up other basic tools, like linen couches for making baguettes. We are still always learning. The seminar costs over $350 for Thursday and Friday (her work-days, anyway) but admission to the Saturday session is free, and draws a LOT of people to the fair-grounds to see product demonstrations and get a chance to buy specialty tools that are not normally carried in stores.

 

[Evo]

My mother is French and taught me how to make french bread. I lived in France for awhile and my family still does. Pthhbbttt

 

[nismaratwork]

LOL. There is a video on ehow about how to truss a turkey and it's completely wrong. But it was hysterical to watch, again, it's just random people uploading shiite, not experts. I don't know if it was taken down or still misleading people. Instead of the traditional turning the wings back and under, he was lasoing them and tying them to the turkey. buwahaha

The internet is full of misinformation. Usually the most prominent and easiest to find pages are the crackpot stuff.

I certainly can't argue the point, factual as it is. The reality of cooking is however, that it is scientific, but not a science. I do find it interesting however that the reasons given by Turbo's personal experience (which match my own), matches TLC's take on it, and ehow. Certainly the turkey trussing as you (no doubt accurately) describe it sounds like an abomination. Still, you can see the results of tossing dough, whereas the results of that kind of trussing will ALSO be readily apparant... in a negative sense.

Granted, these are not something I'm putting in any footnotes or line-notes, but I think the glut of information is the enemy here. This may require some measure of "real world" research to settle definitively, but my view is that this a valid way to make pizza. If you're getting a texture that otherwise might not be there, it's something, but how can we say "better"? If you like Papa John's, I can tell you about better pizza, but "de gustibus non disputandum est."

I think Turbo is making a good point... I use that method whenever I'm making a light bread with a real distinction in texture. Remember, a lot of what makes one bread different from another is gluten formation, so... I'm not going out on a limb with, "toss or be a tosser" (to go Irish with the shiite lol), but I think there's quite a few indications that while this is not the "Traditional Italian Method", it's still a method. Pizza is a worldwide phenomenon of course, and French techniques do so love to sneak into recipes to make them... better.

Turbo-1: Yeah, it's a tough process, but it is SO worth it. You are one lucky guy to live near excellent brews and a master baker; a truly great baker is rare and divine.

 

[nismaratwork]

My mother is French and taught me how to make french bread. I lived in France for awhile and my family still does. Pthhbbttt

AHA! French! J'accuse!

No wonder we went from "goofy" to, "show me how that pion decays!" in .05. I admire the passion of the French for food, but I've been there when a group of French cooks... all great... couldn't agree on how to make eggs! I believe Peter Mayle described a similar experience where he was party to a virtual war over how which pan is to be used, how much butter, etc.

The results are always great, but this is the country with Chevaliers for frog's legs and wine. That's not just love, it's PASSION... and catching it seems!

 

[Evo]

Oh, there is definitely the personal preference factor. I'm just referring to the real, traditional pizza dough. Whatever people like is what is important to them.

I've spent years learning about food both from traditional epicurean and scientific methods. I take food very seriously.

Basically, it's my way or the highway. <evil glare>

But I still like asking turbo for food ideas. I respect his "taste". I also have to disagree with him when it comes to basics. I learned old school traditional techniques. Turbo has more non-traditional homestyle cooking, which I love, btw.

 

[nismaratwork]

Oh, there is definitely the personal preference factor. I'm just referring to the real, traditional pizza dough. Whatever people like is what is important to them.

I've spent years learning about food both from traditional epicurean and scientific methods. I take food very seriously.

This is where I must ask: what is "real traditional pizza dough"? There's serious regional variation within Italy, not just in style, but in terms of sourced ingredients. If you include flat-breads and some other things, pizza is just too diverse for there to be a gold standard.

Like dog breeds, I think you can have a best in show, but it's still about breeds and classes. Still, I like the contrast between your methods and turbo's... I'm sure that both yield great dough, so for me...

...I'm going to try both!

 

[Evo]

This is where I must ask: what is "real traditional pizza dough"?

If you wanted to get very specific, that would be where it originated with the original Margherita pizza.

 

[turbo]

Pizza is much older than that. Flat-breads topped with sauces, oils, vegetables, herbs, cheeses, etc have been around for as long as there have there been ovens and agrarian societies. Want to claim that only Napoletana pizza is "authentic" or only Sicilian pizza is "authentic", or only Tuscan pizza is "authentic"? Knock yourself out. It's a silly game with no winners. The truth is much more complex than commercial "reality".

 

[nismaratwork]

Hmmm... I guess at some point we need to identify the point where flat-bread doughs, or the Japanese version like Okonomiyaki?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Okonomiyaki_-_shrimp_and_cheese_okonomiyaki.jpg

When it comes to the pizza that we eat, I think the Margherita is a good start for what any of us would call "pizza". The thing is, that dough wasn't new, which goes back to Turbo's point... and of course that is just one style.

I liken this to donuts: probably raised came first, then cake... but aren't they still donuts? Were they donuts when the Dutch had no holes in them, but the essential recipe and cooking method was the same?

I think we can identify our modern pizza, but not the modern pizza DOUGH or technique, which is the real issue here. I can accept that we find progenitors in unrelated cultures, but then we can correctly say that our pizza and roman flat-breads evolved separately.

After all, put some cheese and sauce on Paratha, and it's still not pizza in my book. By the same token, give me a bagel and the same ingredients and I happily think, "Pizza bagel!" If we're really going to dig this one out, I think we need to accept that while we might all agree on something... it still won't be definitive.

Still... pizza and flat-breads... when the two don't cross in culinary history, we should follow the "pizza" link, if only because that was the actual evolutionary path.

 

[Evo]

Homemade jalapeno cornbread.

 

[ziesha]

i m a big foodie

 

[nismaratwork]

Homemade jalapeno cornbread.

Take me! *faints*

 

[Evo]

Okay, I miss watching tv shows with other PF members. Christina, where are you?

Who would like to watch an episode of the Original Iron Chef Japanese with me? I was thinking Battle Octopus to start with. It's in five 10 minute segments on youtube. If anyone is interested in watching it with me and exchanging fun comments here, let me know. Turbo, have you ever watched the original Japanese version? I think turbo and nismar would be fun to watch with. Got to have some real foodies involved, but even novices would enjoy the show.

 

[nismaratwork]

Octopus... segments...? On a side-note, I think I've seen every 'Tezushin!' out there. I um... had a brief period where I danced with the leafy green if you catch my drift, and I found that show UTTERLY engrossing.

...
...
...

To be fair, I found a lot of things engrossing, but I STILL enjoy the show. As a longtime fan of Japanese animation (NOT the porn aka Hentai) it was pure entertainment. Anytime Evo... anytime.

edit: Over a decade later I still can crack up one friend with a muttered, "Watakushi no kioku ga tashika naraba..."

edit 2: Oh yes, and that same friend actually made the famous "blue crab brains dressing"... it wasn't half bad...
Also, if any of you have been to Nobu, I want details... I mean pornographic details of the entire experience.

 

[Evo]

Octopus... segments...? On a side-note, I think I've seen every 'Tezushin!' out there. I um... had a brief period where I danced with the leafy green if you catch my drift, and I found that show UTTERLY engrossing.

...
...
...

To be fair, I found a lot of things engrossing, but I STILL enjoy the show. As a longtime fan of Japanese animation (NOT the porn aka Hentai) it was pure entertainment. Anytime Evo... anytime.

edit: Over a decade later I still can crack up one friend with a muttered, "Watakushi no kioku ga tashika naraba..."

edit 2: Oh yes, and that same friend actually made the famous "blue crab brains dressing"... it wasn't half bad...
Also, if any of you have been to Nobu, I want details... I mean pornographic details of the entire experience.

YAY! if turbo doesn't join, we can watch together. Who knew crab brains were blue?

 

[nismaratwork]

YAY! if turbo doesn't join, we can watch together. Who knew crab brains were blue?

No no... blue-crab's brains! I think they were kind of... pale... orange. Let's put it this way, it helped that I had the dressing before I was aware of its contents.

Now we have to rope in turbo... maybe Rhody? "Come on you dogs, do you want to live forever?!"