What Defines Terrorism in the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict?

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by Zero
Remember, Israel is occupying Palestinian land...

Since there has never been a country called "Palestine" Israel can't be occupying its land. Israel is occupying Syrian and Egyptian land.

Russ-I believe it would be difficult to find any army that has less then a 40% noncombatant death rate for armed conflicts and if anyone can come up with dependable numbers that show otherwise I'd be grateful.

The numbers are difficult, but I agree with your estimate. However, I was thinking ratios, not percentages. 40% (.4) is a GOOD ratio historically speaking. If you accept at face value the 3,300 or so civilian deaths estimated in Iraq and guess at 33,000 military deaths (sound ok?) that gives a .1 ratio for this war I think that if you go back to WWII and before, the ratios go well above 1 - maybe even 10. Hell, to some civilizaions, the natural conclusion to a victory in war was genocide. Oh wait - we still have a few of those around today.

they will never stop fighting until ALL of Palestine (meaning isreal as well) AND hold 33% of the government positions within the PA..That Russ, Habibi, would make the PA government a terrorist organization

Where Arafat went wrong is he (appeared to anyway) want to bring Hamaas into the fold and work with them. That made Arafat's governement a terrorist organization. Abaas on the other hand is taking the opposite stand: he's trying to drive a wedge between Hamaas and the government - forcing them to moderate BEFORE gaining legitimacy. No, certainly that will never happen. But what could happen is that Hamaas will gradually become so isolated and alienated that they will be irrelevant. I hope that they go the way of the KKK - when the KKK holds a rally these days they get a dozen members and a thousand people protesting against them.

Let's get back to basics here...when a terrorist is a suicide bomber, how do you retaliate? How can you? HE IS DEAD, REMEMBER?!?

So you are suggesting that all terrorist bombings are unconnected acts of individuals with no supporting organization behind them? He, hehe, heheheheheheh, bwahahahahahahahah! Zero, you crack me up sometimes.

Zero, you are using police and military terminology very loosely when it suits you. Terrorists and terrorist organizations have a very specific (albeit complex) international standing. Terrorists and their organizations are illegal combatants. They get NEITHER the rights of criminals NOR the rights of soldiers. You would suggest they get the rights of both.

 

[Zero]

I am not using terms loosely, exactly...this is a complex situation, and straight millitary tactics are frankly inappropriate. On a battlefield, EVERYONE is a combatant. When we talk about terrorists, we are talking about un-uniformed combatants mixed in with teh general populace. Bombs and missiles are not the proper tools for the job.

 

[schwarzchildradius]

I was watching Christian Broadcasting the other day, the only news on at the time, and there was a story that Christians are angry with Bush-Sharon road-map because it gave away too much of the Gaza strip, which the Bible clearly states in Ezekiel belongs to the Jews.

So I have a question here: does Sharon's government truly control the Israeli military, or is the military engaged in an eye-for-an-eye tribal war simply licensed by the government?

 

[Ganshauk]

Originally posted by schwarzchildradius
So I have a question here: does Sharon's government truly control the Israeli military, or is the military engaged in an eye-for-an-eye tribal war simply licensed by the government? [/B]

Round and round and round.

What does it matter.

The harsh truth is, as long as anyone remains alive, they just won't let it go. In the meantime, they will embroil us all in their brutality. Fry the lot. Period.

We can't afford such BS anymore.

 

[schwarzchildradius]

"Nuke Them All" --written in the dust at ground zero.

 

[kat]

Originally posted by Zero
I am not using terms loosely, exactly...this is a complex situation, and straight millitary tactics are frankly inappropriate. On a battlefield, EVERYONE is a combatant. When we talk about terrorists, we are talking about un-uniformed combatants mixed in with teh general populace. Bombs and missiles are not the proper tools for the job.

Well, I, for one, am still waiting for your reply detailing the proper tools and methods for the job.

Originally posted by Kat
I am looking for even more detail then this. When you use words as "policing" "arresting" I envision a number of police cruisers incircling the criminals house and charging into remove him while the neighbors do not interfere and stand back out of the way watching. I don't see this as a reality in the midst of the HAMAS stronghold in enemy territory. So maybe, if you don't mind a bit more detail and we can end this portion of our debates once and for all.

 

[Zero]

First off, there is a difference between 'enemy territory' and the homes of civilians.

Secondly, if they have identified a Hamas leader, they can send troops into get him. Launching a missle or dropping a bomb is safer for the Israelis, of course, but it isn't teh proper thing to do. You go get the PA police, you go in together, grab the guy you are looking for, and deal with him. It would take a reworking of the Israeli soldiers and Palestinian police...


Plus, the idea that Israel 'retaliates' tro a terrorist bombing is simply insane to me. It gives teh appearance of 'eye for an eye' instead of justice.

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by Zero
It would take a reworking of the Israeli soldiers and Palestinian police...

If the PA police don't cooperate, can the Israeli soldiers go in alone? They have done so in the past - it usually results in MORE civilian and military deaths than a chopper attack because the mere presence of the Israeli troops incites violence against the troops.

 

[drag]

Greetings !

Originally posted by Zero
Secondly, if they have identified a Hamas leader, they can send troops into get him. Launching a missle or dropping a bomb is safer for the Israelis, of course, but it isn't teh proper thing to do. You go get the PA police, you go in together, grab the guy you are looking for, and deal with him. It would take a reworking of the Israeli soldiers and Palestinian police...

HA ! HA ! HA !
That's one of the funniest things I ever read in this
forum. You have no idea of what kind of forces you need
to go into a Palestinian city with any degree of safety
and what the casualty rate on both sides would be. Aspecialy
in the Gaza strip where the main Hamass strongholds are.
Not to mention that arrests are being carried out all the
time, but this happens in the villages and the smaller
towns where it is reasonably possible. Even then each such
opeartion is carried out by tanks and the most heavilly
armed transports during the nights and practicly each such
operation encounters fire from light weapons and the
occasional rocket or mines. And, not to further mention
that it is not difficult for these people to escape
once they know the IDF forces are close and coming to get
them.

The same way I don't venture into physics discussions when
I get to a level that my actual knowledge doesn't reach, I do
not see why people who have no real idea of what they're
talking should pollute this forum with BS.

Originally posted by Zero
Plus, the idea that Israel 'retaliates' tro a terrorist bombing is simply insane to me. It gives teh appearance of 'eye for an eye' instead of justice.

If there were suicide bombings and victims of shooting gangs
every once in a couple of days in the US, I'm pretty certain
that the ones responsible and the whole area they live in would
be "off the map" - literally, very fast.

Targeted assasinations are the best solution for dealing
with terrorists. The actions take out the important people
who manage the organizations. These actions make such
"jobs" less lucritive and make these people hide and waste
resources and time they would've otherwise used to plan
and carry out terrorist attacks.

As for Abu Mazen, never mind his limmited authority, one
of the important factors that he DOES has full control of is
the Palestinian TV stations. Nevertheless, these TV stations
keep showing the same propoganda as always and directly calling
for people to kill Israelis and destroy Israel, aspecialy in
an increasing manner after the last few days of escalating
violence.

Live long and prosper.

 

[kat]

Originally posted by Zero
First off, there is a difference between 'enemy territory' and the homes of civilians.

Secondly, if they have identified a Hamas leader, they can send troops into get him. Launching a missle or dropping a bomb is safer for the Israelis, of course, but it isn't teh proper thing to do. You go get the PA police, you go in together, grab the guy you are looking for, and deal with him. It would take a reworking of the Israeli soldiers and Palestinian police...


Plus, the idea that Israel 'retaliates' tro a terrorist bombing is simply insane to me. It gives teh appearance of 'eye for an eye' instead of justice.

Zero-When the enemy hides within, prepares and stores their weapons, trains their members and even tunnels under IDF security points from within civilian homes that area very quickly becomes enemy territory, and if your planning to "extract" and "arrest" an enemy who would very much like to see you dead, or better yet if you are like someone like you and are planning to send young men and women in that area for this job they darn well better realize they are entering enemy territory.
As for joint security maneuvers, it's been done, it ended tragicly. In fact the IDF even helped arm Palestinian security forces, as the joint maneuvers proceeded the violence increased considerably and then at some point they began to realize their own weapons were being used against them, finally during a joint patrol the palestinian police officer turned, fired upon his israeli partner killing him. That was the end of joint maneuvers and shortly after the bloody 2nd intifada started.
As for entering the area and attempting to arrest the Hama's member, that was attempted earlier this week, remember? they ended up having a huge shoot out, killed 2 hamas and finally arrested 1. Since Israel has started using helicopters and targeting missiles, believe it or not, civilian injuries,deaths and damage to properties have been reduced considerably. Everything that was mentioned above is very true and you should perhaps study the security issue a bit more.
As for the tit for tat bit, that's not really the situation. The Israeli's and yes, probably Arafat and Abu also realize that as during the Oslo accords, the HAMAS will escalate violence by increasing the suicide attacks. Earlier this week, the day before the horrible bus suicide bombing that killed so many, Israeli attacked in order to prevent a planned suicide attack. Evidently they were right on the money as these suicide attacks are not planned a day in advance, they are very carefully planned, using a number of people to get the suicide bomber there separate from the belt/bomb and then setting up the drop off etc.
The only way there will be peace in this area is if the HAMAS is stopped, they will not reason with Israeli's ever. They do not want it to exist, in any part. Period. They've said this repeatedly, publicly.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by kat
Zero-When the enemy hides within, prepares and stores their weapons, trains their members and even tunnels under IDF security points from within civilian homes that area very quickly becomes enemy territory, and if your planning to "extract" and "arrest" an enemy who would very much like to see you dead, or better yet if you are like someone like you and are planning to send young men and women in that area for this job they darn well better realize they are entering enemy territory.
As for joint security maneuvers, it's been done, it ended tragicly. In fact the IDF even helped arm Palestinian security forces, as the joint maneuvers proceeded the violence increased considerably and then at some point they began to realize their own weapons were being used against them, finally during a joint patrol the palestinian police officer turned, fired upon his israeli partner killing him. That was the end of joint maneuvers and shortly after the bloody 2nd intifada started.
As for entering the area and attempting to arrest the Hama's member, that was attempted earlier this week, remember? they ended up having a huge shoot out, killed 2 hamas and finally arrested 1. Since Israel has started using helicopters and targeting missiles, believe it or not, civilian injuries,deaths and damage to properties have been reduced considerably. Everything that was mentioned above is very true and you should perhaps study the security issue a bit more.
As for the tit for tat bit, that's not really the situation. The Israeli's and yes, probably Arafat and Abu also realize that as during the Oslo accords, the HAMAS will escalate violence by increasing the suicide attacks. Earlier this week, the day before the horrible bus suicide bombing that killed so many, Israeli attacked in order to prevent a planned suicide attack. Evidently they were right on the money as these suicide attacks are not planned a day in advance, they are very carefully planned, using a number of people to get the suicide bomber there separate from the belt/bomb and then setting up the drop off etc.
The only way there will be peace in this area is if the HAMAS is stopped, they will not reason with Israeli's ever. They do not want it to exist, in any part. Period. They've said this repeatedly, publicly.

You know I love you like a brother...

Nevrtheless, when Israel, in the name of fighting terrorism, kills a 2 year old, there needs to be a serious investigation of the tactics involved, this isn't, after all, an isolated incident, but a trend within the Israeli military.

 

[kat]

Originally posted by Zero
You know I love you like a brother...

Zero, hon, I have 7 brothers and I do remember how they liked to beat on me when I did not agree with them but even then, they loved me..but as a sister...*cough*

Nevrtheless, when Israel, in the name of fighting terrorism, kills a 2 year old, there needs to be a serious investigation of the tactics involved, this isn't, after all, an isolated incident, but a trend within the Israeli military.

Yes, deaths of civilians should always be investigated, whether it be Isreali or Palestinian. Innocent victims in Gaza are no less tragic than innocent victims in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv or anywhere else. War sucks, Zero, and as much as you want to use the word "policing" it wont' change that this is very much a war, one which I would very much like to see stop. Immediately. Now. Forever.

But, it seems to me you very much want to ignore the reality of the on ground situation for both sides. What safe, non-civilian threatening method do you have in mind? A decisive locking of arms with Rantisi around a campfire and an aggressive verse of Kumbaya? Maybe the assertion of American power a la Monica Lewinsky, on both knees? Do you think perhaps that whoever confronts the radical hardliners who object violently and react murderously to any peace iniative including the Roadmap may have to use some counter-violence?

Earlier this week, Rantisi vowed a jihad in which every single Jew in all of "occupied Palestine", and that includes of course all of Israel, is killed. Not a single one of them is to survive. I realize that Israel attacking Hamas is far from ideal. It would be much better if the recognized, legitimate Palestinian government of Abu Mazen took the reins of power, as is its obligation, and controlled and policed its own people. But many Palestinians say they will not "do the dirty work" of Israel, as if the disarming and dismantling of groups like Hamas were not, first and foremost, Palestinian obligations and interests, but rather Israeli ones. Abu Mazen wants to be the government but doesn't want to be the police. He doesn't want to enforce a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence in Palestinian territory, which is perhaps the most basic obligation of any government, because he fears this will lead to civil war.

If a Palestinian government willing to live in peace with its neighbors is in itself sufficiently provocative and offensive to enough Palestinians that civil war is threatened, then perhaps the best alternative is a sort of temporary "mandate" or trusteeship, occupation by some outside power until they are ready for sovereignty and independence in peaceful coexistence with Israel. But of course the occupation force will itself need to disarm the terrorists and militias together with a cooperative PA government, or will have to disarm both the opposition groups like Hamas AND the PA. Someone is going to have to do it, and personally, I would be very pleased if it were not Israel, but I see no one else capable stepping up to bat, do you?

 

[Zero]

Kat...besides the brotherly noogie I always send your way, I have to say that we cannot let the perfec5t be the enemy of the good. I don't have a perf3ect solution; that doesn't make current Israeli tactics correct of fair or just. Honestly, I think the idiot American millionaires who support Israel for religious regiions should buy the whole population of Israel an island to live on. After all, they don't seem to be able to live in peace with neighbors...

 

[kat]

Originally posted by Zero
Kat...besides the brotherly noogie I always send your way, I have to say that we cannot let the perfec5t be the enemy of the good. I don't have a perf3ect solution; that doesn't make current Israeli tactics correct of fair or just. Honestly, I think the idiot American millionaires who support Israel for religious regiions should buy the whole population of Israel an island to live on. After all, they don't seem to be able to live in peace with neighbors...

Zero, if you really were my li'l brother right now, I would take away your desert! Shame on you for ignoring history. After all, the population of israel escaped to israel because it's neighbors thought they should be hunted down and exterminated, 100's of thousands of them refugees from palestine, transjordan, syria, iraq, lebanon, many murdered before they could escape..all leaving their homes and belongings behind. It also seems, apparently that the Arab population within Israel, members of which belong to the Israeli government aren't being slaughtered, nor are the thousands upon thousands of palestinians refugees who returned to israel and live and work there as israeli citizens. Funny, I see no jews taking part in the Palestinian government, in fact even isreali's who are on the side of the Palestinians, wanting to work with them and for them are chased out of palestine, or asked to leave for their own safety. Why should Israeli families, both Arab and Jewish many of who's families have lived in greater palestine for generation, upon generation, upon generation, unbroken, have to leave because islamic fundamentalist can't accept jews who refuse to live under dhimmi? you do know the history of dhimmi don't you? Sorry, but the time for islamic fundamentalist, racist, murderous, actions should be ended. today. forever.

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by Zero
I don't have a perf3ect solution; that doesn't make current Israeli tactics correct of fair or just.

Zero, there are a LOT of people who think exactly as you do here. And even the people in this thread who disagreed with you understand that the Israeli responses aren't perfect (clearly). Its one thing to criticize someone's actions, but a valid criticism MUST include a viable alternative to the current course of action.

I laugh every time I see a sign or a t-shirt that says "War is not the answer." Do you know why? You never ever see on the back of the sign or t-shirt "_________ is the answer." Criticism is easy. Finding real solutions is not easy nor is it ever perfect.

Incidentally, I stated a few days ago that I though the Israeli rocket attack was a mistake because of the political implications - ie it would undermine the peace process. I changed my mind and I agree with kat - with Hamaas the way it is, there can be no peace process. I think the world saw the events of the past week and understands that Hamaas will do anything they can to prevent peace from ever occurring and that gives Israel a rare opportunity to take the gloves off and try to actively take down Hamaas.

If the Israelis can do enough damage to Hamaas over the next few weeks or months months and if the new PA leadership isn't murdered by Hamaas for trying to achieve peace, there could be a real chance for peace.

Though I am still hopeful, I was naive a week ago to think that the PA leadership sitting down at the negotiation table would be enough. They gave Hamaas the opportunity to join them in a search for peace and now they must make the tough decision and cut Hamaas off completely. Only by destroying Hamaas (with the help of the Israeli military) can the PA leadership have the power to negotiate for real. Hell, this could even be the thing that brings the two sides together - the PA and Israel fighting together to destroy a common enemy. No, I won't hold my breath on that though.

 

[Zero]

No, criticism doesn'tr have to include an better alternative. I don't have to provide a solution to rape to claim taht rape is wrong, do I?

 

[Zero]

Oh, and even Bush makes vague statements that Israel needs to find a better path.



I don't claim that I know the right path, but taht doesn't mean I can't point out that Israel is lost!

 

[russ_watters]

Originally posted by Zero
No, criticism doesn'tr have to include an better alternative. I don't have to provide a solution to rape to claim taht rape is wrong, do I?

Thats a binary example and the alternate is clear - don't get raped. As for the solution (preventing rape), I'm SURE you can give a number of examples of positive action that can be taken to prevent rape. Otherwise you are simply left with telling women - rape is bad, don't get raped.

This goes back to what kat kept asking you, Zero - if you think we shouldn't be doing what we are doing now and you don't have a better course of action, what you are suggesting is that we do NOTHING.

Its like driving somewhere in a car. If you go to turn right at a 4 way stop sign and the guy in the seat next to you says "don't turn right" does that really help you get where you need to go?

Since we've already established that there is no perfect solution, the only way you can say one alternative is bad is to compare it to another alternative. At least you tried with the ground troops vs helicopter attacks example, but it seems clear that you were wrong that 'helicopter attacks are bad' exactly because you didn't consider the alternative until we pressed you to.

 

[Zero]

Honestly, I think almost all of these problems need to be solved by 'MP' style troops on the ground; basically police, but trained in military tactics. If Israel could show an effort to avoid killing children, it would be harder for terrorists to find new recruits.

 

[Zero]

Oh, and let's run that 'don't get raped' example past the women on this board, and see if they think that is a reasonable solution to rape, shall we?

 

[drag]

Greetings !

Originally posted by Zero
Nevrtheless, when Israel, in the name of fighting terrorism, kills a 2 year old, there needs to be a serious investigation of the tactics involved, this isn't, after all, an isolated incident, but a trend within the Israeli military.

There's a military investigation of every case when innocent
civilians are hurt. If guilt is proven the guilty are
ussualy court-martialed accordingly. Intellegence mistakes
and the occasional wrong assesments are totally unavoidable
in warfare (being an ex-soldier one would think you'd know
that, then again you probably never got farther than your
training camp, did you ? ). The IDF ussualy makes the most
effort to avoid mistakes, aspecialy when targeted killings are
carried out. Statisticly the great majority of such actions
were accurate and efficient to the max.

Live long and prosper.

 

[kat]

Originally posted by Zero
should buy the whole population of Israel an island to live on. After all, they don't seem to be able to live in peace with neighbors...

After re-reading this statement, I just can't seem to shake the connotations here. It would seem that you would ignore the fact that the PLO has been literally chased, thousands murdered, in fact entire refugee camps razed in order to get them out of other Arab countries because of the disturbances they have caused there. It would seem that you would suggest that somehow jew infants and children who ARE purposely targetted, children city in their schools cafeteria, coming home from school on the buses, young women alone in vehicles purposely targeted, women with no arms, no previous history of violence..just being jewish are not victims and do not have a right to be defended. This is NOT how the Israeli's act, this IS how the HAMAS-FATAH-Hezbollah act. What you've said here is the equivelent of saying "those darn blacks if they would just stop letting themselves be oppressed we wouldn't have this slavery problem"
You have a very anti-jew view of what's going on in Israel. Making claims that Israel is purposely targetting children, when in fact there is very little evidence to back that up, unless of course you want to ignore documentation that 14+ year olds are included in the militant armed forces of the terrorist organizations. Your view has little to no credibility with me in this matter, because what I see coming from you is tons of Arafat rhetoric, a very distorted view of cultural reality and an absolute ignorance of the broad base of victims that exist when terrorist dominate a civilian area and attempt to imprison an entire population.
You completely ignore, or perhaps you are ignorant (neither is an excuse if you are making claims such as that above) of the history of Israeli's attempt to bring peace to the area. MP type policing HAS been tried repeatedly, Joint security has been been tried several times..you neglect to consider that there is NO way for Israeli to protect itself without injuring others BECUASE that is the goal of the HAMAS-FATAH and Co., in fact because hezbollah found it so successful to hide behind civilians, to use them as sheilds, to use civilian homes as bases..to publicize the deaths of civilians that they brought hezbollah to palestine to help train their own militants in capatilizing in the techniques, there are good reasons for geneva conventions laying the blame for the deaths of civilians on the heads of militants who purposely use civilian areas to attack from, maybe you should investigate those reasons further.

 

[Zero]

Kat, any time someone doesn't dance for Israel, you call it antisemitism. Go grab your pom-poms and cheerlead for someone else, because I'm not buying it.

 

[kat]

Originally posted by Zero
Kat, any time someone doesn't dance for Israel, you call it antisemitism. Go grab your pom-poms and cheerlead for someone else, because I'm not buying it.

Everytime I point out that your POI is not based on reality and point out the flaws in your statements, you come back with a similar statement or comments on how you don't need to have the answers. Well if your statements are flawed, your veiws are based on fiction and you have not answers then maybe you should follow my suggestion and study the situation a little further from something other then indymedia or an A.N.S.W.E.R. pamphlet.
As for antisemitism, these type of comments:

pave over Israel, and put in a bunch of WalMarts, Blockbusters, and Starbucks

If Israel could show an effort to avoid killing children

should buy the whole population of Israel an island to live on. After all, they don't seem to be able to live in peace with neighbors...

when they uprooted thousands of trees out of nothing more than spite and hatred? (the real reason for those who have a concept of reality:"several bulldozers entered orchards outside the town and set about razing them to deprive rocket squads of cover")

Let's just shoot children too, so that terrorists don't have anyone to hide behind.

Israelis gun down civilians indiscriminantly

We're not supposed to talk about how the existence of Israel is supported by the presumed religious and racial superiority of Jewish people!

Israeli troops terrorise Palestinian civilians

I wonder if somewhere, back in the mists of history, the Jews didn't earn the beginnings of the hatred.

would be considered as such by the majority of people I know.

 

[FZ+]

Actually, those statements seem to be more about anti-Israeli government policies rather than anti-Jewish religion or people. It doesn't qualify as antisemitism per se. In the same way that critiquing the Spanish Inquisition isn't insulting christianity. A large number of Israeli citzens also feel that what Sharon is doing is wrong.

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by FZ+
Actually, those statements seem to be more about anti-Israeli government policies rather than anti-Jewish religion or people. It doesn't qualify as antisemitism per se. In the same way that critiquing the Spanish Inquisition isn't insulting christianity. A large number of Israeli citzens also feel that what Sharon is doing is wrong.

Thanks...I think I am pretty clear in my views, unless someone is so Rabidly pro-Israel that their perspective is skewed. I couldn't care less if they are Jewish, Methodist, or Jerry Springer worshippers.


I don't have a perfect answer to the problem...in the same way that, while I don't know how to perform open-heart surgery, I feel safe in saying that a rusty fork shouldn't be used in the procedure.

 

[drag]

Originally posted by FZ+
A large number of Israeli citzens also feel that what
Sharon is doing is wrong.

Yeah... A large number of Israeli citizens - the
settlers and their supporters, recently began protesting
and threatening him personally for Akaba and his
agreements with the Palestinians as well as his
pathetic (to them) actions against the terrorists.
Most of the rest are pretty much content.
As for the Israeli arabs, they're pretty much always not.

Peace and long life.

 

[Zero]

Well, since the settlements are in violation of a UN resolution...

 

[drag]

Originally posted by Zero
Well, since the settlements are in violation of a UN resolution...

I don't think people care much about the UN in the middle
east or in most other places btw. What is, however,
true is that the settlements are apparently the obstical
for peace. Not an agreed upon peace since after over a decade it seems that Israel can not seriously hope to reach any real and maintained agreement with the Palestinians.
But rather a peace that will be enforced and
protected by Israel by building a whole and complete border
with the Palestinian territories. Unfortunetly, the settlers
make the construction of this border very difficult and slow
and force the IDF to remain in order to protect them. These
people are and have been the direct obstical for peace (one
way or another) in Israel for a long time and it is unfortunate
that the Israeli governments are unwilling to take desicive
action against the settlements. Of course, it is well
known that the arabs will see any such one-sided move as
a clear sign of weakness - as they view any kind of retreat.
However, an Israel with defined single borders will be able
to prevent penetration of suicide bombers and missile attacks
can then be regarded as direct acts of war of the entire
Palestinian athority and treated very well accordingly without
any surface intervention. (Just my opinion, of course.)

Peace and long life.

 

[Laser Eyes]

Raven, that was an excellent post you made on the first page of this thread.

 

[kat]

Originally posted by Zero
Well, since the settlements are in violation of a UN resolution...

I'm getting a strange sense of deja vu here...but, I'll ask anyway. Pray tell, which UN resolution is that, Zero?

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by kat
I'm getting a strange sense of deja vu here...but, I'll ask anyway. Pray tell, which UN resolution is that, Zero?

Actually, we have done this before...several times. Wanna skip all this and thumb-wrestle for it?


Better yet, I re-submit the idea of paving over all of israel, so that no one can have it. It IS just dirt, after all...let's make it all a parking lot, so people stop killing each other over it.

 

[kat]

Originally posted by Zero
Actually, we have done this before...several times. Wanna skip all this and thumb-wrestle for it?

Uhh, no, I prefer that you actually answer the questions and support your statements...since you are the one making them.

 

[kat]

Originally posted by drag
What is, however,
true is that the settlements are apparently the obstical
for peace. Not an agreed upon peace since after over a decade it seems that Israel can not seriously hope to reach any real and maintained agreement with the Palestinians.
But rather a peace that will be enforced and
protected by Israel by building a whole and complete border
with the Palestinian territories. Unfortunetly, the settlers
make the construction of this border very difficult and slow
and force the IDF to remain in order to protect them. These
people are and have been the direct obstical for peace (one
way or another) in Israel for a long time and it is unfortunate
that the Israeli governments are unwilling to take desicive
action against the settlements.

At 7 million a foot, with a width of 2 to 3 hundred feet, snatching up palestinian farm land, dividing palestinian towns, forcing them to permanentlyuse checkpoints in order to get from home to farmland..this fence is a permanent obstacle to peace settlement in a way that outpost have never been. How do you build a permanent "fence" on borders that have yet to be negotiated?

 

[Zero]

Originally posted by kat
Uhh, no, I prefer that you actually answer the questions and support your statements...since you are the one making them.

No, you really don't want answers. At least6 not teh kind I can give you.