What Do American Girls Look for in a Man?

[fuzzyfelt]

sorry, couldn't bring myself to write it in exact words, either!

 

[bor0000]

The more i read these topics the more i realize that there is a greater difference between professions(class) than between cultures(usa vs england). For example on this forum, you are all leading logical and genial discussions, while on a premed forum most people are rude and judgemental and not nice.
I think the classiest girls are the ph.d. students. may argue that physics ph.d's are better than english ph.d's and vice versa, but can definitely say they're all better than premeds.

 

[Moonbear]

The more i read these topics the more i realize that there is a greater difference between professions(class) than between cultures(usa vs england). For example on this forum, you are all leading logical and genial discussions, while on a premed forum most people are rude and judgemental and not nice.
I think the classiest girls are the ph.d. students. may argue that physics ph.d's are better than english ph.d's and vice versa, but can definitely say they're all better than premeds.

You know, once upon a time, I was pre-med. Think you might want to revise that statement? Any attempt at lumping people into categories is going to fall short of reality.

 

[Astronuc]

Hello,
A little bit on that last note, and a little bit to do with transatlantic custom discrepencies - an American friend assures me there is quite a difference in one respect, a custom prevelent in America and not so in England, that left her a little surprised originally, but regardless, happily married to a Pom for many years. This is information I'm not personally privy to(with regard to these two counties), nor am I aware of any statistics, nor if it is age related, nor do I have an opinion as to whether it is mutilation or hygenically sound and better looking! Anyway, forewarned may be forearmed!

It would seem that this is a reference to piercing of certain body parts, beyond that of pierced ears.

Besides ears, many younger folk seem to be into piecing tounges, nose, eye brows, and certain intimate parts. Personally, I consider this mutilation, and it does seem to raise issues of hygiene.

This mostly seems be a phenomenon for those in the early 40's down to teenagers, having evolved over the last 20-25 years from the Punk culture.

 

[russ_watters]

That's my issue about using the term "girl." It's a diminutive and shows a lack of respect. If you're using the term to emphasize someone's lack of maturity, then it makes your point (just like I will use the term "boys" to refer to adult men who are immature in their behaviors and act like boys), but it will be interpreted that way if you're not intending to use it that way either.

My mother calls her friends "the girls" and I refer to some of my female friends that way too. Its not meant to convey lack of maturity, but youthfulness. It happens with guys as well, but not as often - as maturity is generally more of an issue with guys, they want to be called "men" at an earlier age.

 

[Moonbear]

My mother calls her friends "the girls" and I refer to some of my female friends that way too. Its not meant to convey lack of maturity, but youthfulness.

If you are close enough friends with someone, generally you know them well enough to know what you can or can't call them, and since a certain level of mutual respect is already established, can even tease each other with terms that might otherwise seem offensive.

But, would you use such a term in an office setting, or when referring to a woman you only know as a casual acquaintance or in a business environment? The setting it really is noticeable is in an office environment. You'll hear men refer to the women in management but the girls in the secretarial pool.

It would seem that this is a reference to piercing of certain body parts, beyond that of pierced ears.

That's not what I thought he meant. I was pretty sure he was referring to circumcision. But, it was somewhat ambiguous.

 

[Moonbear]

It happens with guys as well, but not as often - as maturity is generally more of an issue with guys, they want to be called "men" at an earlier age.

You added this after I quoted your post!

So, why do you think it wouldn't it be just as much of an issue for women? And, when we just ask for the same level of respect in terminology that men ask for themselves, why do men get upset or think we're being too demanding?

 

[russ_watters]

You added this after I quoted your post!

Yes, I do that...

If you are close enough friends with someone, generally you know them well enough to know what you can or can't call them, and since a certain level of mutual respect is already established, can even tease each other with terms that might otherwise seem offensive.

But that's just it - since it isn't meant to be offensive, so its not a matter of knowing someone well enough to tease them, but simply a matter of understanding what is meant when it is said.

But, would you use such a term in an office setting, or when referring to a woman you only know as a casual acquaintance or in a business environment? The setting it really is noticeable is in an office environment. You'll hear men refer to the women in management but the girls in the secretarial pool.

Well, the difference there is a causal vs formal address - its still not about teasing. And this isn't an office, this is an internet forum - socially, about the same as a bar.

So, why do you think it wouldn't it be just as much of an issue for women?

Because men are chauvanistic, insecure, and immature socially. Women like to present the fun-loving aura socially but seldom come off as immature while doing it: You don't think "Girls Just Wanna Have Fun" was about teenagers, do you? Or Tom Petty's song, "American Girl"? And the title of this thread too...

And, when we just ask for the same level of respect in terminology that men ask for themselves, why do men get upset or think we're being too demanding?

This has never been an issue for me - in either direction. This isn't a business meeting where protocol is important, this is a casual social situation - if you want to refer to me as "boy", "buddy", "dude", or even "babe", as long as I can read from your tone that the intent is not condescending, its simply not an issue to me.

 

[pattylou]

I don't think this is a "make or break issue" in a relationship. That being said,

But that's just it - since it isn't meant to be offensive, so its not a matter of knowing someone well enough to tease them, but simply a matter of understanding what is meant when it is said.

You are putting the onus on the female, to change her understanding of "what is meant." Moonbear and I have simply communicated our understanding as it presently stands. I think this preference (to be referred to as a woman) is more common with age and education. You can see our feedback as informative, or not, but my personal preference is unlikely to change simply because some men think I shouldn't be offended or that I should change how I "hear" the term "girl."

Well, the difference there is a causal vs formal address - its still not about teasing. And this isn't an office, this is an internet forum - socially, about the same as a bar.

Let's say you approach me in a bar. Your friend walks up and says he's taking off, and do you need a ride? You respond that you've just met a girl, and could he hang around for ten more minutes? If this happened, I would silently take (negative) note of your use of the word 'girl.' If I thought you were a great guy anyway, it wouldn't matter. If I had my doubts, it could be just enough to convince me that you're probably not for me.

You may find this tip useful. (Or you may just think I'm a weirdo on the internet and happily continue to meet "girls" in bars. If it works for you, more power to you.)

Because men are chauvanistic, insecure, and immature socially. Women like to present the fun-loving aura socially but seldom come off as immature while doing it: You don't think "Girls Just Wanna Have Fun" was about teenagers, do you? Or Tom Petty's song, "American Girl"? And the title of this thread too...

Don't understand all of that... but the title of the thread was what got me to read it.

This has never been an issue for me - in either direction. This isn't a business meeting where protocol is important, this is a casual social situation - if you want to refer to me as "boy", "buddy", "dude", or even "babe", as long as I can read from your tone that the intent is not condescending, its simply not an issue to me.

Surely you recognize "boy" as carrying a different connotation than "buddy?"

"You are a good buddy." vs.

"You are a good boy."

Or...

"You're a babe." vs.

"You're a baby."

You get the intent of a sentence from the words.

Bottom line, trust your instincts. And when in doubt, go with more respect than you might otherwise.

 

[Evo]

Well, at my age, I don't mind being called a girl. Just don't call me "ma'am".

 

[brewnog]

Well, at my age, I don't mind being called a girl. Just don't call me "ma'am".

Yes, m'lady.

 

[Astronuc]

That's not what I thought he meant. I was pretty sure he was referring to circumcision. But, it was somewhat ambiguous.

Ah, I didn't think of that, since circumcision is fairly normal in the Judeo-Christian tradition. I guess one may consider it a form of mutilation, and the hygiene issue is still debated.

 

[Astronuc]

So, why do you think it wouldn't it be just as much of an issue for women?

I don't think women addressing women as 'girls', or men addressing men as 'boys' is as big a deal as is one referring to the opposite gender.

Historically, most men it seems have treated women with less respect than deserved. My parents, grandparents, teachers and many others taught me to respect people - without differentiation to gender, nationality, race, creed, culture, etc.

A little sensitivity is not too much to ask!

Because men are chauvanistic, insecure, and immature socially. Women like to present the fun-loving aura socially but seldom come off as immature while doing it: You don't think "Girls Just Wanna Have Fun" was about teenagers, do you? Or Tom Petty's song, "American Girl"? And the title of this thread too...

Some men that is. Perhaps most, but not all.

Again I would offer the examples of my father and grandfathers, and many other adult males I know.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Moonbear - was pretty sure he was referring to circumcision

Hi, Astonuc sorry to be ambiguous. Moonbear was right about what I said, but not about my sex, I'm female, happy to be called a girl or woman. I do happen to know circumcision in Aussie men is common.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Should say, I'm married to one

 

[pattylou]

Should say, I'm married to one

LOL--- Nope. Sorry. That qualifier doesn't get you out of the "common in Aussie men" implication. In fact, I didn't make the connection til you added that part.

 

[russ_watters]

Surely you recognize "boy" as carrying a different connotation than "buddy?"

"You are a good buddy." vs.

"You are a good boy."

Or...

"You're a babe." vs.

"You're a baby."

You get the intent of a sentence from the words.

That's exactly my point: if its virtually always a term of endearment and the intent is clear, what's the problem? - which is why I don't agree with this:

You are putting the onus on the female, to change her understanding of "what is meant."

Well, yeah - that's how communication works, isn't it? Its up to the person making the comment to be clear in their intent (which is why I said in the previous post that knowing someone well enough to know they will understand what you are saying is important), but the person hearing it and reacting has an equal responsibility to make sure they understand before reacting. You seem to be saying that even if someone knows they aren't being insulted (and they know that how a word is being used is a common usage) they can still react as if they are being insulted. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

Bottom line, trust your instincts. And when in doubt, go with more respect than you might otherwise.

Of course - but I must say I'm very surprised by the friction this has caused. I've never even heard of anyone having a problem with this before. And I'm having trouble thinking of common contexts where it would be insulting - it seems to me that it is by far most commonly used as a term of endearment.

 

[Moonbear]

That's exactly my point: if its virtually always a term of endearment and the intent is clear, what's the problem?

Except her examples weren't of usage of "boy" or "baby" as a term of endearment, but as patronization.

You seem to be saying that even if someone knows they aren't being insulted (and they know that how a word is being used is a common usage) they can still react as if they are being insulted.

The word is in common usage as a carryover from times when women were less respected than men, and continues to be used in that context. To use a term that is patronizing, even if you don't intend insult, is still insulting. It implies a dominant/subordinate or superior/inferior relationship to refer to someone else by a name usually reserved for a child.

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Of course - but I must say I'm very surprised by the friction this has caused. I've never even heard of anyone having a problem with this before. And I'm having trouble thinking of common contexts where it would be insulting - it seems to me that it is by far most commonly used as a term of endearment.

But it's not endearing at all. I have very rarely heard it used as a term of endearment. I've many times heard it used in the context of, "Give that to one of the girls to type." It's not being used as a term of endearment there. It ranks right up there with the professor in the dept I got my degree from who used to call me "lady," not as a term of endearment or because I did anything ladylike, but because he couldn't be bothered to remember my name. It wasn't until the day I had heard it one too many times and told him if he couldn't say my name, I could give him lessons on how to pronounce it. I told my mentor about the incident and he told me it was about time one of the women stood up to him because he did that to all of them.

 

[pattylou]

Of course - but I must say I'm very surprised by the friction this has caused. I've never even heard of anyone having a problem with this before. And I'm having trouble thinking of common contexts where it would be insulting - it seems to me that it is by far most commonly used as a term of endearment.

IMO there is no friction.

Someone asked what American girls liked.

I replied that I prefer to not be referred to as a girl. It's hardly the case that I went on a rampage and demanded that people stop using the term "girl." Opinions were solicited, and I obliged.

I also happen to like red wines. If you are happy with white, and your 'girls' like white too, by all means continue to drink white wine. But this American female prefers red, in particular, merlots. Had the thread been "What white wines do American prefer" I would have said "Please don't serve me white; I prefer red."

If you think this is a source of friction, ... ? Have another glass of wine maybe?

I hope my preference for red wines doesn't qualify as "problem." Even if you've never heard this preference before.

-Patty

p.s. incidentally I have also never heard "girl" used as a term of endearment in conversation, except parental endearment of their children. Hardly an equal relationship there! Try "sweetheart."

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Oh lordy... I have to agree with Russ that the responsability in communication is a two way street. If someone has not made an insulting comment yet uses a word you happen to find insulting there is nothing to be gained by regarding the comment as insulting. Really it only serves to hinder the communication and add stress onto yourself. Your reaction to the word is your responsability just as much as trying to make sure to use the proper words is the reponsability of the person speaking.

I think part of our not seeing this issue the same way is that Russ and I are approximately the same age and tend to interact mainly with females around our own age. In my experience most females don't tend to start prefering to not be referred to as girls until they are 40+. At our age most females just don't care. Once you've earned the "title" is when it starts to matter.

Anyway... I happen to like red wine myself and merlot especially. I'm beginning to crave some now.

 

[Astronuc]

Hi, Astonuc sorry to be ambiguous. Moonbear was right about what I said, but not about my sex, I'm female, happy to be called a girl or woman. I do happen to know circumcision in Aussie men is common.

Moonbear - was pretty sure he was referring to circumcision

G'day fi. I'm an atypcial Aussie male, but I can vouch for the custom/tradition to which you were referring.

No ambiguity on my part. I figured you were female.

Should say, I'm married to one

Oh, you poor woman. I take it he's not an ocker.

LOL--- Nope. Sorry. That qualifier doesn't get you out of the "common in Aussie men" implication. In fact, I didn't make the connection til you added that part.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

p.s. incidentally I have also never heard "girl" used as a term of endearment in conversation, except parental endearment of their children. Hardly an equal relationship there! Try "sweetheart."

I've met a number of women, and even some girls, that don't like to be referred to as sweetheart. It really just comes down to the individual.

 

[Astronuc]

As for red wines, Lembergers are very good, particularly from Washington State (Columbia and Yakima Valleys) and apparently now Oregon, which one might like if one likes Merlots. I haven't been out there recently, but 10-15 years ago, they had some outstanding wines.

Australia produces some outstanding Shiraz (as well as Lemberger and others), but these are more like Cabernet Sauvignon than Merlot.

I had a bottle of Black Swan Shiraz (sorry forgot what year), and it was pretty good. I have a bottle of Amaroo Shiraz 2002, that I've been waiting to try. Sounds like a good time.

 

[Astronuc]

I've met a number of women, and even some girls, that don't like to be referred to as sweetheart. It really just comes down to the individual.

I think it comes down to the relationship and familiarity.

For example, in an office, I think it highly inappropriate in a peer-to-peer relationship for a man to call a woman 'sweetheart', 'babe', or any other so-called term of endearment. On the other hand, if the couple has established a dating relationship, which does happen in some organizations, then perhaps such terms of endearment are acceptable.

I don't think men should be saying sweetheart, babe or whatever to a woman they hardly know.

I think part of our not seeing this issue the same way is that Russ and I are approximately the same age and tend to interact mainly with females around our own age. In my experience most females don't tend to start prefering to not be referred to as girls until they are 40+. At our age most females just don't care. Once you've earned the "title" is when it starts to matter.

There does seem to be some merit to this statement, but I think it more the case since the 1990's than say the 1960's or 1970's. Not only is it generational, but also seems to be a recent development.

 

[Evo]

Oh, don't EVER dare to call me "babe". It will be like in the Indian Jones movie where the pagan priest shoves his bare hand into the guy's chest and rips his heart out and shows it to him...

Only one former Chicago "Italian Stallion" ex-boyfriend ever got away with calling me that in a joking manner. It was only because he would intentionally say it in such a funny way that he was allowed to live.

 

[Moonbear]

Oh lordy... I have to agree with Russ that the responsability in communication is a two way street. If someone has not made an insulting comment yet uses a word you happen to find insulting there is nothing to be gained by regarding the comment as insulting. Really it only serves to hinder the communication and add stress onto yourself. Your reaction to the word is your responsability just as much as trying to make sure to use the proper words is the reponsability of the person speaking.

And if a person with dark skin coloring told you that a certain term that begins with the letter N is insulting, yet you meant no insult in using it, does that make it any less insulting or okay to continue using the term?

I think part of our not seeing this issue the same way is that Russ and I are approximately the same age and tend to interact mainly with females around our own age. In my experience most females don't tend to start prefering to not be referred to as girls until they are 40+. At our age most females just don't care. Once you've earned the "title" is when it starts to matter.

I hate to break it to you, but I'm pretty close to your age too, and it has mattered to me for a good 10-15 years already, as it mattered to the other women at my college who continually corrected the men in our classes.

Anyway... I happen to like red wine myself and merlot especially. I'm beginning to crave some now.

Well, there you have it, it must be associated with wine preference. I prefer white wine, but not chardonnay. Occassionally I enjoy a shiraz or pinot noir (never merlot), but generally I lean toward white wines.

 

[Astronuc]

A man might consider - "How would I like some guy (or man or boy) to behave toward my mother, sister or daughter?"

 

[Evo]

I just think of that tear jerking movie with the couple in their 90's and she's dying in the hospital and she asks him if she's still his girl and he tells her she will always be his girl and she dies, and he loses it. There is nothing wrong with being someone's girl if it is meant lovingly.

I don't agree with the demeaning use such as "it's girl's work", "give it to the girl at the front desk to do" that girl can get you some coffee". Then it's just a label for a common worker. But endearing forms such as a guy beaming with pride saying "that's my girl", or "you'll always be my girl, or "will you be my girl? are meant with love and respect.

 

[pattylou]

As for red wines, Lembergers are very good, particularly from Washington State (Columbia and Yakima Valleys) and apparently now Oregon, which one might like if one likes Merlots. I haven't been out there recently, but 10-15 years ago, they had some outstanding wines.

Australia produces some outstanding Shiraz (as well as Lemberger and others), but these are more like Cabernet Sauvignon than Merlot.

I had a bottle of Black Swan Shiraz (sorry forgot what year), and it was pretty good. I have a bottle of Amaroo Shiraz 2002, that I've been waiting to try. Sounds like a good time.

Rosemont.

We have a friend from grad school - and he called on day. He said simply "I have two words to say." Mike replied "I know what they are. Australian wines." He said "Yes!"

Cabs and shiraz(es) (and pinot noirs) are all nice, too. Merlot is no fail for me, but the others have rarely let me down.

 

[Moonbear]

I think it comes down to the relationship and familiarity.

For example, in an office, I think it highly inappropriate in a peer-to-peer relationship for a man to call a woman 'sweetheart', 'babe', or any other so-called term of endearment. On the other hand, if the couple has established a dating relationship, which does happen in some organizations, then perhaps such terms of endearment are acceptable.

Quite frankly, I'm not fond of any terms of endearment, but my last boyfriend got away with calling me "blondie." "Honey" or "sweetheart" were not well-received...I told him that's just so he can call all his girlfriends the same thing and not worry about confusing names of who he was with. (Or I responded with some nauseating term, like, "Yes snookypookums?" and threatened to stick him with that name if he kept using those generic "endearments.") If he wanted to use a term of endearment, it had to be more original. "Blondie" started out entirely as a joke in response to my complaints about terms of endearment; he used it purposely to ruffle my feathers and we both knew that was his intent, but somehow it morphed then into our inside joke, that when I had a bad day and he wanted to cheer me up, he'd call me that just to get me mad, which got me to forget what was bothering me before that, and then he'd offer to kiss and make up, and then the bad mood went away. Over time, it stopped bugging me but he only ever used it when something was bothering me and I needed cheering up.

But, outside of a close friendship or relationship, such terms sound like nails on a blackboard to me. If I'm not best buddies with someone, I don't want them talking to me like we are, especially if we are supposed to be maintaining a professional relationship, not a social one.

 

[pattylou]

FTR: I didn't mean "sweetheart" in a casual manner. I meant as a term of endearment. LOL - I am imagining Mike saying "Would you get me the remote, girl?" vs. "Would you get me the remote, sweetheart?" And that is the context that I offered the substitution, in. Still LOL.

 

[Moonbear]

I had a bottle of Black Swan Shiraz (sorry forgot what year), and it was pretty good. I have a bottle of Amaroo Shiraz 2002, that I've been waiting to try. Sounds like a good time.

Black Swan is pretty good...no idea what year it was. I've also been enjoying a very tasty Jacob's Creek Reserve Shiraz (2000). It's a modestly priced one too. But I think I only have one bottle left, and I didn't like the 2001 as much. Haven't tried the more recent years (if they are out yet). Jacob's Creek also makes a tasty Reisling. But, you have to get their Reserve wines; the other cheaper ones they make are not very good at all (I'm not afraid to try inexpensive wines - I've come across some very tasty ones that way and then I can afford to splurge on a case to enjoy them longer).

Although I really don't care for Chardonnay, I do like Yellow Tail chardonnay and shiraz (that's another Australian winery). Maybe I just don't like California chardonnay.

 

[Astronuc]

I just think of that tear jerking movie with the couple in their 90's and she's dying in the hospital and she asks him if she's still his girl and he tells her she will always be his girl and she dies, and he loses it. There is nothing wrong with being someone's girl if it is meant lovingly.

Couple, husband and wife, are wholly appropriate for terms of endearment, like darling, sweetheart, dear, honey, . . .

I don't agree with the demeaning use such as "it's girl's work", "give it to the girl at the front desk to do","that girl can get you some coffee". Then it's just a label for a common worker.

It's unprofessional, and in some cases 'intentionally' demeaning.

But endearing forms such as a guy beaming with pride saying "that's my girl", or "you'll always be my girl", or "will you be my girl? are meant with love and respect.

As in the couple in the first example.

If I'm not best buddies with someone, I don't want them talking to me like we are, especially if we are supposed to be maintaining a professional relationship, not a social one.

Definitely.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

And if a person with dark skin coloring told you that a certain term that begins with the letter N is insulting, yet you meant no insult in using it, does that make it any less insulting or okay to continue using the term?

That's quite a different story. Anybody should know that such a word is going to bother that person. I think maybe a closer analogy would be the word "nigga". Lots of people use it, black or not now adays, and it's generally considered to be ok, though a white person shouldn't generally start using it with a black person he doesn't know. At any rate I have met plenty of people who don't like either form of the word, and I apologize to anyone I may have offended using it here. Either way a word only has the power you give it and the responsability is still even between the speaker and the listener.

I hate to break it to you, but I'm pretty close to your age too, and it has mattered to me for a good 10-15 years already, as it mattered to the other women at my college who continually corrected the men in our classes.

That's why I tend not to use absolutes when I speak/write. There are always exceptions. What I stated is just my experience.

Well, there you have it, it must be associated with wine preference. I prefer white wine, but not chardonnay. Occassionally I enjoy a shiraz or pinot noir (never merlot), but generally I lean toward white wines.

So you don't care from red and it gives Evo headaches. I certainly hope that there are those in the sisterhood that like red because I will be very sad if I ever am lucky enough to have drinks with you ladies and there is none.

 

[Astronuc]

So you don't care from red and it gives Evo headaches. I certainly hope that there are those in the sisterhood that like red because I will be very sad if I ever am lucky enough to have drinks with you ladies and there is none.

Pay attention and take notes as to who likes what.

And don't start with - "So what would you girls like?"