What Do American Girls Look for in a Man?

[TheStatutoryApe]

Pay attention and take notes as to who likes what.

Already started.

And don't start with - "So what would you girls like?"

Lol.. I may be a male but I'm not that dense.

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

I also happen to like red wines. If you are happy with white, and your 'girls' like white too, by all means continue to drink white wine. But this American female prefers red, in particular, merlots.

"I am NOT drinking merlot! If anyone orders f------ merlot, I'M LEAVING!"

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

Quite frankly, I'm not fond of any terms of endearment

Bad-tempered little cross-patch.

"Blondie" started out entirely as a joke in response to my complaints about terms of endearment; he used it purposely to ruffle my feathers and we both knew that was his intent, but somehow it morphed then into our inside joke, that when I had a bad day and he wanted to cheer me up, he'd call me that just to get me mad, which got me to forget what was bothering me before that, and then he'd offer to kiss and make up, and then the bad mood went away.

Little too much detailed information, Blondie.

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

FTR: I didn't mean "sweetheart" in a casual manner. I meant as a term of endearment. LOL - I am imagining Mike saying "Would you get me the remote, girl?" vs. "Would you get me the remote, sweetheart?" And that is the context that I offered the substitution, in. Still LOL.

Tell him to get off his ar-e and get his own damn remote.

 

[brewnog]

Quite frankly, I'm not fond of any terms of endearment, but my last boyfriend got away with calling me "blondie."

Boyfriend? Boyfriend??!

No wonder he used to call you silly things if you called him a boy...

 

[Astronuc]

Wolram, does this thread answer your question?

Don't generalize!

Everyone is different - and be especially careful with regard to "terms of endearment". Choosing the wrong one could be fatal.

 

[russ_watters]

Except her examples weren't of usage of "boy" or "baby" as a term of endearment, but as patronization.

Those are counterexamples and they make my point: the fact that some words often have different meanigns does not mean that there has to be a problem knowing which meaing is bein used.

The word is in common usage as a carryover from times when women were less respected than men, and continues to be used in that context.

I really don't think that's true. If it were, why do women use it?

To use a term that is patronizing, even if you don't intend insult, is still insulting. It implies a dominant/subordinate or superior/inferior relationship to refer to someone else by a name usually reserved for a child.

But its not patronizing in most contexts! Are you saying you don't refer to your female friends that way?

But it's not endearing at all. I have very rarely heard it used as a term of endearment. I've many times heard it used in the context of, "Give that to one of the girls to type." It's not being used as a term of endearment there. It ranks right up there with the professor in the dept I got my degree from who used to call me "lady," not as a term of endearment or because I did anything ladylike, but because he couldn't be bothered to remember my name. It wasn't until the day I had heard it one too many times and told him if he couldn't say my name, I could give him lessons on how to pronounce it. I told my mentor about the incident and he told me it was about time one of the women stood up to him because he did that to all of them.

Moonbear, I really think you are focusing on what is both a different and a rarer context and not acknowledging that it really is a term of endearment in the most common usage. Evo's example is another good one:

I just think of that tear jerking movie with the couple in their 90's and she's dying in the hospital and she asks him if she's still his girl and he tells her she will always be his girl and she dies, and he loses it. There is nothing wrong with being someone's girl if it is meant lovingly.

I hate to play the pshrink, but I think you had one or two bad experiences that you are projecting onto every other time you hear the term and you aren't listening to what is actually being said.

The definition I'm using is in the dictionary and if the context is clear enough to know which definition is being used, there really shouldn't be a problem:

1. A female child.
2. An immature or inexperienced woman, especially a young woman.
3. A daughter: our youngest girl.
4. Informal. A grown woman: a night out with the girls.
5. A female who comes from or belongs to a particular place: a city girl.
6. Offensive. A female servant, such as a maid.
7. A female sweetheart: cadets escorting their girls to the ball.

For "the girls in the secretary pool" it can go either way, but that's why its a matter of how well you know them - if you know them well enough to be informal, then there is no reason to assume that the usage is anything other than #4/5.

And if a person with dark skin coloring told you that a certain term that begins with the letter N is insulting, yet you meant no insult in using it, does that make it any less insulting or okay to continue using the term?

Waaaay, different. Historically, that word was all bad and its only recently that its been used any differently. Frankly, I don't understand why people would refer to themselves that way, but I'd never use the word.

 

[russ_watters]

I think part of our not seeing this issue the same way is that Russ and I are approximately the same age and tend to interact mainly with females around our own age. In my experience most females don't tend to start prefering to not be referred to as girls until they are 40+. At our age most females just don't care. Once you've earned the "title" is when it starts to matter.

That's what's most confusing to me about this. Like I said, my mom refers to her friends that way and she's one of the ones who was in the secretary pool and was treated badly (she complains about it a lot). So if its not a word that should be used as a term of endearment, she of all people shouldn't be using it. So it doesn't seem to me like she has a problem distinguishing the context.

Anyway... I happen to like red wine myself and merlot especially. I'm beginning to crave some now.

Me too.

 

[russ_watters]

Quite frankly, I'm not fond of any terms of endearment, but my last boyfriend got away with calling me "blondie." "Honey" or "sweetheart" were not well-received...I told him that's just so he can call all his girlfriends the same thing and not worry about confusing names of who he was with.

Ouch. You're a real teddy-bear, aren't you?

 

[wolram]

Wolram, does this thread answer your question?

Don't generalize!

Everyone is different - and be especially careful with regard to "terms of endearment". Choosing the wrong one could be fatal.

I have read all the comments and can understand why some get in a huff
when addressed incorectly, the usage of girl is ambiguous and dangerous,
when used without knowing the one, ones befor hand.
I can not help thinking though that rank has a part to play in the way people
expect to be addressed ,Pro, Doc, cap, ladies, gentlemen, and can not
tolerate an address that to them is a lower rank, when in reality the term
could be a compliment.

 

[pattylou]

Tell him to get off his ar-e and get his own damn remote.

Should I call him "boy" while telling him this? You know, so he knows I'm saying it affectionately?

 

[Moonbear]

Are you saying you don't refer to your female friends that way?

I do not refer to them that way. They are my friends. I don't distinguish between my female friends and my male friends, they are all friends. I have some I refer to as "best" friends, but I have both male and female best friends too. But, unless you are trying to ensure you clarify the appropriate sex for your own preferences for dating, I see no need to specify the gender of my friends at all.

Moonbear, I really think you are focusing on what is both a different and a rarer context and not acknowledging that it really is a term of endearment in the most common usage.

Try it on the woman you are currently dating and find out. Instead of using whatever other terms of endearment you would normally use, insert "girl" and see how she responds. "Girl, come sit with me." "Where would you like to go for dinner, girl?" "Girl, while you're up, would you bring me a glass of water?"

Evo's example is another good one: I hate to play the pshrink, but I think you had one or two bad experiences that you are projecting onto every other time you hear the term and you aren't listening to what is actually being said.

No, I think the men here aren't listening to us women when we are telling you that you are just so accustomed to using the term, you don't even see why it is offensive to us.

The definition I'm using is in the dictionary and if the context is clear enough to know which definition is being used, there really shouldn't be a problem:

But the problem is that the context is most often NOT clear enough. Note the first two definitions, especially #2. It's the association with inexperience that is the biggest issue.

For "the girls in the secretary pool" it can go either way, but that's why its a matter of how well you know them - if you know them well enough to be informal, then there is no reason to assume that the usage is anything other than #4/5.

If you know them well, why don't you send someone to a specific one by name? How much familiarity can you have if you need to refer to them as a collective group in the first place? You're referring to the entire secretarial pool, not one person you have a friendship with. And, how much familiarity does the person have with them whom you are instructing to seek their assistance? It tells me you don't know them well enough to even know their names or to know who might be available to help. If it was all men working as secretaries, could you ever picture yourself saying, "Give it to one of the boys in the office?"

Hmm...since the men seem to think it's just a term of endearment, perhaps I should just start substituting the term "boy" when referring to them in every context where I hear them use the term "girl" to refer to women. What do the boys here think? What's good for the goose is good for the gander, right?

Ouch. You're a real teddy-bear, aren't you?

Yep, complete with claws and teeth.

 

[russ_watters]

I do not refer to them that way. They are my friends. I don't distinguish between my female friends and my male friends, they are all friends. I have some I refer to as "best" friends, but I have both male and female best friends too. But, unless you are trying to ensure you clarify the appropriate sex for your own preferences for dating, I see no need to specify the gender of my friends at all...

If you know them well, why don't you send someone to a specific one by name? How much familiarity can you have if you need to refer to them as a collective group in the first place?

What do you say when you walk into a room with a large group of people in it [pictures the "doctor" scene from "Spies Like US"]? 'Hi, people?' If I walk into a party and say, 'Hey, guys, the beer's here!' should the females assume I'm implying they are manly?

Try it on the woman you are currently dating and find out. Instead of using whatever other terms of endearment you would normally use, insert "girl" and see how she responds. "Girl, come sit with me." "Where would you like to go for dinner, girl?" "Girl, while you're up, would you bring me a glass of water?"

Well, I've only been out with the girl ( ) I'm currently dating 4 times, so its a little early to be using any such term. However, there should be no difference in how one interprets "baby" or "girl" in those contexts (if "girl" is bad, "baby" should be worse, right?). I suspect if I start substituting "girl" for "babe" with my female friends, I may get some funny looks because of the change (if they even notie at all), but it won't be taken as an insult - I'll try it this weekend, though. Regardless, you said you're not a fan of any such term of endearment, so the question of substitution is kinda irrelevant. You don't think that's the least bit unusual, though?

No, I think the men here aren't listening to us women when we are telling you that you are just so accustomed to using the term, you don't even see why it is offensive to us.

I've acknowledged that it can be offensive in certain contexts - in fact, there is little argument on the point about "the girls in the secretary pool", but you are focusing on professional contexts (where I acknowledge it is inappropriate) and don't seem to want to acknowledge that there in social circumstances it can be perfectly appropriate. Regardless, knowing your sensitivity on the subject, I'd never make the mistake with you.

But the problem is that the context is most often NOT clear enough.

[shrug] Like I said, I use it all the time and I've never once had it misinterpreted as an insult. I have two very close female friends (teachers) in their upper 20s and I say "goodnight girls" or "hey babe, while you're up could you get me a beer?" all the time.

Hmm...since the men seem to think it's just a term of endearment, perhaps I should just start substituting the term "boy" when referring to them in every context where I hear them use the term "girl" to refer to women. What do the boys here think? What's good for the goose is good for the gander, right?

You're comparing something that you know is meant to be offensive with something you know is meant not to be offensive. But if you honestly meant for it to be a term of endearment, you could call me pretty much whatever you want. I don't have preconceived connotations for things like that.

 

[Astronuc]

Just don't use 'girl' in reference to an adult woman (18 and older), unless it's one's wife or significant other, and then only if one gets permission.

Seriously - the knowledge of basic etiquette/manners (or just basic consideration for another human's feelings) seems lost on some people.

 

[russ_watters]

It probably seems like I'm beating this to death, but its a real big pet peve of mine when people know something is not meant to be offensive but get offended anyway. To me its exactly the same as getting bumped by a passer-by on the street, assuming it was intentional even after getting an apology, and picking a fight. My default assumption is always that someone does not mean to offend me unless proven otherwise.

 

[pattylou]

If the same person bumps you repeatedly, every day, on the street, would you consider speaking up about it eventually? Even if, not once, they intended to offend you?

That is the nature of the scenarios Moonbear has drawn.

 

[Lisa!]

I think it couldn't be so important how a man call a woman ,"baby " or "girl"...! the important thing is what the man really think about you.does he respect you as a human or no?
when someone calls you "baby",you may think "does he think I'm as wise as a child!or I'm not mature enough!
what really irritates me is, sometimes men think women are created because of them.they don't have an independane existence.they always need to be supported by men. and men are more intelligent than women in general.
we don't have these kind of men around here,do we?

 

[Moonbear]

It probably seems like I'm beating this to death, but its a real big pet peve of mine when people know something is not meant to be offensive but get offended anyway. To me its exactly the same as getting bumped by a passer-by on the street, assuming it was intentional even after getting an apology, and picking a fight. My default assumption is always that someone does not mean to offend me unless proven otherwise.

And a pet peeve of mine is when someone knows a term is offensive to people and continues to use it anyway.

When you make the example about your specific group of friends, then if they are okay with it, that's fine. I'm not talking about whatever nicknames or language you use with your best friends as long as you are all comfortable with the usage, I'm talking about general usage with people you do not know that well.

Yes, I do realize I am not usual in being bothered by terms of endearment in general, though most I don't find offensive, just annoying or nauseatingly cutesy or entirely over-used. I don't have a problem with others using terms of endearment with each other if nobody objects, other than I still find it nauseating to listen to , but as soon as you're dealing with someone who is not your best friend (I'd extend close relationship to include close friendship, not to be confused with just those you are dating or partnered with), then they are no longer appropriate. And, in an office or professional setting, they really aren't appropriate even with those who are your close friends unless nobody else is around. In that case, it can be bad for two different reasons: 1) it may be perceived as favoritism or that professional decisions are based on your personal relationship rather than your professional relationship, or 2) may set a bad example for others regarding the authority of that person and the degree of respect they should be given in a professional setting. Generally, it's just uncomfortable for those around you. The same would extend to two male colleagues who are friends outside of work. If the big bosses were around, you wouldn't refer to each other by some goofy nicknames you had for each other, you'd stick with your proper names. So, even when it's not offensive to the person you are speaking to or about, it can still be inappropriate. Here's another example that gets at the inappropriateness issue: I like to hug my friends when I greet them (I know, I know, this sounds totally at odds with my dislike for cutesy endearments), and I do consider some of the people I work with to be good friends; however, when I am at work, or when I run into other friends at conferences, we do not hug to greet in that setting. I don't even want to know how people would interpret that. Likewise, I've been known to have intimate relationships with men I've known, and certainly such intimacy is not offensive to either of us, but if someone I'm dating comes to visit me in the office, or if we go out to dinner, we're sure not going to be behaving the same way in front of other people as we do in the privacy of our own homes.

 

[Moonbear]

You're comparing something that you know is meant to be offensive with something you know is meant not to be offensive.

But that's exactly my point. Why is it offensive to use the term boy but not girl if you're telling me it is only being used in a non-offensive context as a term of endearment? You've been arguing all along that we should know the intent by the context, so if the context is the same, you should know the intent is the same. So, if the context is the same, how could you be confused about the intent? Why do you think women need to put up with it and just understand that you mean no offense even when it is offensive to use the term "girl" for a grown woman, but on the other hand, you expect women to accommodate men's preferences not to be called a "boy" even if no offense was intended? This is what we call a double-standard.

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

Hmm...since the men seem to think it's just a term of endearment, perhaps I should just start substituting the term "boy" when referring to them in every context where I hear them use the term "girl" to refer to women. What do the boys here think? What's good for the goose is good for the gander, right?

Absolutely. I have no problem with you calling me 'boy', just as long as you insert the word 'big' in front of it.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

LOL--- Nope. Sorry. That qualifier doesn't get you out of the "common in Aussie men" implication. In fact, I didn't make the connection til you added that part. -Pattielou

Can never find the edit button when I really need it.

G'day fi. I'm an atypcial Aussie male - Astronuc

G'day Astronuc, pleasure to make your aquaintance. I'd guessed you weren't typical! How's Sunny Uluru today?

Oh, you poor woman. I take it he's not an ocker. - Astronuc

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal...
I'm not sure when Robert A. Heinlein, (quoted from a post by Janus in another thread), met my husband, but he was able to give quite an accurate description!

Try maybe a Penfolds bin 386 if you like Aussie wines.

And lastly, if someone wouldn't mind reminding me how to do the blue quote boxes my responses may be more timely.

 

[brewnog]

Just stick [/quote] after everything you want to quote,

And stick

before!

You can also put

in the first one, to quote whoever you'd like to quote.

 

[pattylou]

Try maybe a Penfolds bin 386 if you like Aussie wines.

In honor of you, your accomplished husband, my mother (who grew up in Australia - Perth perhaps?) and Astronuc, I settled on two Australian reds at the store today.

Currently enjoying Nugan Family 2000 Cabernet. Didn't see Penfolds, but the Nugan Family was one of the ten top picks. It's tasty.

 

[Evo]

And lastly, if someone wouldn't mind reminding me how to do the blue quote boxes my responses may be more timely.

The easiest way to "quote" is to hit the green "quote" button in the far bottom right corner of the post that you want to quote. Just delete whatever text you don't want included in your quote.

Or you can quote manually as Brewnog suggested.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

That's what's most confusing to me about this. Like I said, my mom refers to her friends that way and she's one of the ones who was in the secretary pool and was treated badly (she complains about it a lot). So if its not a word that should be used as a term of endearment, she of all people shouldn't be using it. So it doesn't seem to me like she has a problem distinguishing the context.

Same here. My mum and grandmothers and aunts all like to refer to "the girls". I have avoided mentioning it but there is another term that many women don't like that I have a tendency to use, mostly because of the people I am around. All of the women I have dated use it, my mom and aunts, even the majority of the various women I have been around socially use it, younger and older. This would be the infamous "chick(s)". Maybe it's a Southern California thing, the only women I have ever seen take offense to it have been from else where I believe.

Moonie, when I talk about the females at my work I refer to them as girls because they are, most of them are between the ages of 18 and 20. At work and in a professional capacity some of my co-workers, and bosses, will refer to them as girls, though I will generally refer to them as "young women" or "young ladies". When I write my reports it is invariably the term "female" that I use. It definitely depends on the context. Russ and I both agree with you about professionalism.

 

[Astronuc]

How's Sunny Uluru today?

As far as I know, it's still there where you left it.

 

[Moonbear]

Same here. My mum and grandmothers and aunts all like to refer to "the girls". I have avoided mentioning it but there is another term that many women don't like that I have a tendency to use, mostly because of the people I am around. All of the women I have dated use it, my mom and aunts, even the majority of the various women I have been around socially use it, younger and older. This would be the infamous "chick(s)". Maybe it's a Southern California thing, the only women I have ever seen take offense to it have been from else where I believe.

Really? I know far more women who really take major offense at the term "chick." I've never heard another woman use that term, other than to say, "Can you believe that jerk just called me 'chick?'"

Moonie, when I talk about the females at my work I refer to them as girls because they are, most of them are between the ages of 18 and 20. At work and in a professional capacity some of my co-workers, and bosses, will refer to them as girls, though I will generally refer to them as "young women" or "young ladies". When I write my reports it is invariably the term "female" that I use. It definitely depends on the context. Russ and I both agree with you about professionalism.

Hmm...yeah, I think when I was in that age range, "girl" was okay sometimes. That was pretty much when in some contexts I'd use "women" and others I'd switch back to "girls," sort of that transition into adulthood thing (or "gals" worked because the 18-20 males were the "guys"; of course in college, we also had the "sorority girls" and "frat boys"). By the time I was in my mid-20's though, the women were women and the men were men. I really can't think of any situation where I would use the term "girl" to refer to someone over 21 or so unless I was wholly unimpressed with them...perhaps I'd call someone a girl if they were the sort who looks all pink and fluffy and seems to have pink fluff for brains too; Paris Hilton might still be a "girl." But I'm certainly not being nice by saying that.

 

[The_Professional]

Quite frankly, I'm not fond of any terms of endearment, but my last boyfriend got away with calling me "blondie." "Honey" or "sweetheart" were not well-received...

So Moonie is out of the question?

Ohh-kay...<slowly backs away>

 

[Moonbear]

So Moonie is out of the question?

Ohh-kay...<slowly backs away>

TheStatutoryApe already asked permission for that one. Since it's not the generic, "I don't want to be bothered remembering your name" term, it's okay. Besides, nicknames are different from terms of endearment. Though, I'm still finding it amusing that my nickname has a nickname.

 

[Evo]

chick? Ohhhh. Not since I was in my teens. Same fate as saying "babe".

chickie babe will get you an even slower, more painful death.

 

[Moonbear]

chickie babe will get you an even slower, more painful death.

How do you suppress the reflexive response so you can inflict a slower, more painful death? That one calls for my handy dandy elastrator.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

chick? Ohhhh. Not since I was in my teens. Same fate as saying "babe".

chickie babe will get you an even slower, more painful death.

I'm always careful to adjust my language to the people I am around. It wasn't until I was 22 or 23 that I cussed in front of my mum, and she cussed in front of me quite often by that time. Even then it was only because I was really angry with a lawyer.

 

[The_Professional]

chick? Ohhhh. Not since I was in my teens. Same fate as saying "babe".

I love chex! especially in the morning. I usually eat them with milk, they come in rice, corn and sometimes wheat. They're delicious.

 

[russ_watters]

So I got a chance to test the theory earlier than expected last night. When I got home from the gym, I had a message waiting from one of my female friends that she wanted to hang out, drink, and play poker last night. When I got out of the shower, she called again, so I answered the phone by saying "Hey, girl, you're really ready to get your drink on, aren't you?" Her response was a giggle, but she was calling back so soon to postpone it until tonight. I will conduct further experiements...

Thinking about it more, though I've never referred to the girl I'm dating (sorry, saying "woman" sounds too formal - I just can't do it, even though she's 30) as a "girl" as a term of endearment, I probably have as a familiar/informal reference (ie, "you're a nice girl and I'd like to see you again"). I'm not sure though, so I'll try it next time I talk to her or see her. Since she's 5'1" and slightly sensitive about people thinking she's younger than she is, I won't call her a "cute girl" though (that is a phrase I use every now and then). That's a just in case thing though - I'm slightly sensitive about the same thing (once when I was around 24, I had a bartender start referring to me as "Doogie Howser" and my friends got years of mileage out of that one), but I'd never misinterpret a girl referring to me as a "cute boy" as being an insult.

 

[russ_watters]

chick? Ohhhh. Not since I was in my teens. Same fate as saying "babe".

chickie babe will get you an even slower, more painful death.

"Chick" is a term that guys should only use around other guys, but I've found that a lot of chicks like being referred to as "babe". And the two girls I'm good friends with refer to me as "babe" all the time. I only rarely refer to them as "chicks" ('either of you chicks need another beer?').