What Does the Russian Word Poshlost Really Mean?

[symbolipoint]

I guess not. What about three words: "yes", "no" and "maybe"?

Should someone tell us what is the meaning of "language"?

 

[symbolipoint]

Still no. Here's a hint: words are not the sole component of a language.

You see this is why we should have an emoticon indicating "Interesting!".

 

[symbolipoint]

Here is a thought on Translation.

If a sentence is originally made in two words, then a translation should be in no more than three words. If a sentence originally is made in three words, then a translation might be done in three or four or five words. We may have some increased size sentences onward describing the same claim. At some point we should reckon that if an original sentence is made using for example, three words, then if the translation must be done in 25 or more words, then either this is a bad translation, or the original sentence is not translatable.

Now, go ahead and pick at that if you want.

 

[green slime]

That sucks.
What about Neanderthalians? Wikipedia states, with references, that we do not know the complexity of their languages, if they had any.
In any case, I do not think homo sapiens is different from all other creatures if we consider the now extinct other modern humans.

There is a lot of speculation around this in Linguistic circles.

One thing modern humans have, that earlier hominids and the other great apes do not, is have a mouth cavity and tongue constructed in such a way, that we are far more likely to swallow our tongue. This of course is quite dangerous; you can die from asphyxiation. It is currently believed, that this evolutionary trait that humans possesses must therefore be connected to some greater advantage: that is, our ability to make a wider array of sounds, especially vowels. Yes, there are linguists examining the skulls of dead ancestors and writing papers on the topic. There are, however, examples of languages with few vowels still existing in the world, such as Khoisan.

Personally, I do not believe language sprung into being with the advent of Homo sapiens 130,000-200,000 years ago (this is merely the minimum age that language must be).

I'm of the opinion, that Neanderthals probably did have a language; I'd go even further, and suggest it goes even further back in time, to around 1,5 - 2 million years during Homo Erectus. But that is just me. I base that purely on fire, tool use: surely these developed alongside the ability to communicate ideas. As I said, a lot of speculation, and utterly no proof, beyond the vast rich complexity of all human languages. The example of fire use is also controversial; little evidence remains after 1,5 million of years, as you can imagine... so even that is debated.

 

[pinball1970]

Sure
View attachment 289137


Ps.: to avoid confusion: I don't know if that cow on the picture is 'real' (I hope not), but I did hear childcare staff complaining about children knowing cows to be purple (due the chocolate, yes: since that's the only form of cow they have seen that age).

I did not anticipate a purple cow on pf, spherical? Yes. Purple. No.

colours of the rainbow?

So assuming the purple cow is real, that colour on the cow is that little bit there on the rainbow, A Bolivian kid will agree an Australian kid who will agree with me.

Purple is purple.

However we have to remember purple is still vague in that it does not tell you what kind of purple it is. How much red does it have?

Same with Green and blue when does green gain so much blue it just becomes blue? Think mixing paint

Yellow gaining red to become orange then just red?

I have destroyed my own argument to an extent.

Colour are ball park.

Shapes. A square is always a square right?

 

[symbolipoint]

pinball1970,
Colors should usually for the most part be translatable. What do people in different places recognize depends on what colors they have seen or experienced. Best is, one person show a sample to someone else; and as long as neither these people are color-blind, the person shown can learn that color and name of color.

There were a few brief posts somewhere in Physicsforums telling of Purple Cow as something the author and Mathematician Spivak created idea for. Something which is unlikely, or ridiculously impossible can be called a "Purple Cow". "So you want this, this, and this too? That just won't happen; you're asking for a purple cow."

I did see a purple dog, once.

 

[BillTre]

Colors should usually for the most part be translatable. What do people in different places recognize depends on what colors they have seen or experienced. Best is, one person show a sample to someone else; and as long as neither these people are color-blind, the person shown can learn that color and name of color.

Word for particular colors is a verbal description of the internally observed mental sensation.
The nervous system gets involved and it is no longer simple. Internally observed colors are based on nervous system signals that make "corrections" for things like an objects surroundings or illumination.

The idea of color as a descriptive word starts to lose its meaning for people with varying derees of color blindness. What about for blind people. If they have never seen, it may have no meaning at all.

There were a few brief posts somewhere in Physicsforums telling of Purple Cow as something the author and Mathematician Spivak created idea for. Something which is unlikely, or ridiculously impossible can be called a "Purple Cow". "So you want this, this, and this too? That just won't happen; you're asking for a purple cow."

Clearly, you guys need to dye a cow purple, or use photoshop.

 

[Rive]

There were a few brief posts somewhere in Physicsforums telling of Purple Cow as something the author and Mathematician Spivak created idea for.

Well, on one side I'm glad that the issue with translating colours got such a good example.
On the other side this feels like quite a failure, so please tell me what word would you use to describe this colour:

 

[symbolipoint]

Rive, the color there looks like light blue with a tiny bit of red in it. The STRENGTH of the color changes when I view it from different positions.

 

[Rive]

For me it's in the range of purple, a bit on the blue side.
By Wiki it's 'lilac', which is described as 'a pale violet': violet is closely associated with purple.
By raw search it's often described as pale/light/soft shade of purple.

Well, good luck, translators!

 

[pinball1970]

Well, on one side I'm glad that the issue with translating colours got such a good example.
On the other side this feels like quite a failure, so please tell me what word would you use to describe this colour:
View attachment 289173

I don't have a calibrated screen and presumably we are all using different devices to view the image. On my tablet it's purple on the cow and a pale dull purple round the outside

 

[BWV]

Someone told me once that one way to understand Finnegan's Wake was to get a translation and what the translator had done gave a big clue to what it all meant. I recall he had a French translation, rather than Chinese.

I should say I've never tried to read it myself.

John V. Kelleher, one of my professors at Harvard, was a prominent Joyce scholar. He had grown up in Dublin so he could understand it. But he thought FWake was just a mishmosh of in jokes so he didn't like it at all.

I personally couldn't get past the first page. I think Dubliners is one of the greatest works of fiction, but it was all downhill from there. I guess that was too easy for him so he got bored with it. Kelleher's favorite was Portrait of the Artist.

John Coltrane was like that too. I don't know that anyone listens much to his late stuff. Respect yes, listen not.

I made an attempt at FW this summer, got about halfway through. I enjoyed Book 1 then got lost and frustrated in Book 2. My goal was just to read it through and enjoy it and not try to analyze every passage. I would read short chapter summaries to sort of know where it was going. The book is written in a sort of dream language, with a heavy nod toward Jung - its a night's sleep for a Scandinavian immigrant pub-owner worried about his ruined reputation after committing some unspecified sex offense in a park. Interestingly for a book written in the 30s, Joyce references television in multiple passages, seemingly prescient on its later importance.

Given the importance of puns (often multilingual) in the book, its hard to see how it works in Mandarin. Chinese puns, as far as I know, are all about either pure homophones or changing the tone of a certain syllable. (this is interesting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homophonic_puns_in_Standard_Chinese).

Im not a huge fan of free Jazz and prefer Wayne Shorter to Coltrane, but the key is just to listen without expectations - most of peoples disconnect with any type of music is not meeting it on its own terms (of course it does not mean you have to like it)

 

[gmax137]

Sure
View attachment 289137


Ps.: to avoid confusion: I don't know if that cow on the picture is 'real' (I hope not), but I did hear childcare staff complaining about children knowing cows to be purple (due the chocolate, yes: since that's the only form of cow they have seen that age).

This one is real, I've seen it in person...

 

[sbrothy]

Should someone tell us what is the meaning of "language"?

Robert Sapolsky has some interesting things to say about the connection between the FOX2P gene and language. Appearently pidgin languages all have similar grammar. I can't remember which lecture I heard it in but this would probably be a good start (this one and "Schizophrenia"):



btw, he has a wonderful articulate way of speaking. He never says "er", or "um". He just "drones" on. :)

Robert Sapolsky.Angry, but surprisingly articulate.

 

[symbolipoint]

post #119 from @sbrothy
A little hard to follow and seems to cover too many topics, and that is just up to about 18 minutes through the video timeline. I hope we do not have a quiz afterwards.

I asked for it; hoped a linguist would give us some answers about things been discussed. I wished they could be simpler. In that video, Dr. Sapolsky is a neuroendocrinologist, not a linguist. At least we should be aware, Linguistics is multidisciplinary.

About 30 minutes in, Sapolsky talks about brain damage and strokes and aphasia but I am stopping now; can not keep up...

 

[sbrothy]

post #119 from @sbrothy
A little hard to follow and seems to cover too many topics, and that is just up to about 18 minutes through the video timeline. I hope we do not have a quiz afterwards.

I asked for it; hoped a linguist would give us some answers about things been discussed. I wished they could be simpler. In that video, Dr. Sapolsky is a neuroendocrinologist, not a linguist. At least we should be aware, Linguistics is multidisciplinary.

About 30 minutes in, Sapolsky talks about brain damage and strokes and aphasia but I am stopping now; can not keep up...

Yeh. I realized after watching most of it myself (I actually fell asleep at the end! ) swear I heatd that guy talk at length about language. Funny it's not the one marked "Language". I guess he talk *a lot*!

 

[pinball1970]

I don't think there ever could be an untranslatable word into English (speaking for my people) . There are enough words in the language to capture whatever that word is. What is lost is a nuance that I as the non native speaker of the UTW have not encountered. The History, literature, religion, culture behind it. That's been pointed out by previous posters reading a book in one language then the original language.
Laughing at someone's misfortune hits the spot I think. Schadenfreude.
Comedy is based on it, the English had well attended public executions in the past so we should have had a word for it.
The fact we don't and the Germans do is an example of that nuance , in my opinion.
@fresh_42 has discussed this word previously.

 

[Hornbein]

A popular song from Japan is entitled 'My Love Is A Stapler'. I think this is because the Japanese word for a stapler is hotchkiss. Hotchkiss was the first brand to make it there. I'd guess it is a bilingual pun on hot kiss.

 

[Keith_McClary]

A popular song from Japan is entitled 'My Love Is A Stapler'. I think this is because the Japanese word for a stapler is hotchkiss. Hotchkiss was the first brand to make it there. I'd guess it is a bilingual pun on hot kiss.

The name Hotchkiss was brought to England in the great wave of migration following the Norman Conquest of 1066. It comes from the Norman personal name Roger. Hotchkis was a baptismal name which means Roger.

 

[BWV]

The name Hotchkiss was brought to England in the great wave of migration following the Norman Conquest of 1066. It comes from the Norman personal name Roger. Hotchkis was a baptismal name which means Roger.
View attachment 289315

That site cracks me up - is there any surname that does not have an exalted noble lineage?

found this surprising - no one I ever met with the surname Patel looked like a Viking:

The roots of the Patel surname reach back to the language of the Viking settlers who populated the rugged shores of Scotlandin the Medieval era. The Patel surname comes from someone having lived any of several place names in England, such as Battle in Sussex. Contrary to what one would expect, the name is not a nicknameor occupational name derived from the word battle.

 

[Jonathan Scott]

While living in Sweden, I tried to say something about a "chicken leg bone" on my plate. The problem was that the word for "leg" and the word for "bone" are both "ben". I never did solve that one.

I also had difficulty translating "grandparents" or even "grandmother" to Swedish because (as in some other languages) there are different terms for father's parents or mother's parents, and similarly for father's father, father's mother, mother's father and mother's mother.

 

[Hornbein]

That site cracks me up - is there any surname that does not have an exalted noble lineage?

found this surprising - no one I ever met with the surname Patel looked like a Viking:

View attachment 289318

The roots of the Patel surname reach back to the language of the Viking settlers who populated the rugged shores of Scotlandin the Medieval era. The Patel surname comes from someone having lived any of several place names in England, such as Battle in Sussex. Contrary to what one would expect, the name is not a nicknameor occupational name derived from the word battle.

I'm quite suspicious of DNA heritage too. Many are told they are descended from Ghenghiz Kahn.

Professor Kelleher related that his father said of a similar situation : there never was a Kelleher coat of arms. If there were it would be a wheelbarrow full of earth.

 

[green slime]

I don't think there ever could be an untranslatable word into English (speaking for my people) . There are enough words in the language to capture whatever that word is. What is lost is a nuance that I as the non native speaker of the UTW have not encountered. The History, literature, religion, culture behind it. That's been pointed out by previous posters reading a book in one language then the original language.
Laughing at someone's misfortune hits the spot I think. Schadenfreude.
Comedy is based on it, the English had well attended public executions in the past so we should have had a word for it.
The fact we don't and the Germans do is an example of that nuance , in my opinion.
@fresh_42 has discussed this word previously.

Except people speaking English use the word "Schadenfreude." I heard it yesterday in a BBC podcast. IOW it is on its way to being adopted into the language. Just as Smorgasbord, ombudsman, and a whole host of other words have been.

 

[green slime]

While living in Sweden, I tried to say something about a "chicken leg bone" on my plate. The problem was that the word for "leg" and the word for "bone" are both "ben". I never did solve that one.

I also had difficulty translating "grandparents" or even "grandmother" to Swedish because (as in some other languages) there are different terms for father's parents or mother's parents, and similarly for father's father, father's mother, mother's father and mother's mother.

Kycklinglårben? Usually you are eating the thigh of the hen. Generally, they are sold as "kycklinglår," and not "kycklingben." :)

"mor- och farföräldrar" or "far- och morföräldrar" is the common construction.

 

[Jonathan Scott]

Kycklinglårben? Usually you are eating the thigh of the hen. Generally, they are sold as "kycklinglår," and not "kycklingben." :)

"mor- och farföräldrar" or "far- och morföräldrar" is the common construction.

Thanks for helping to refresh my Swedish (it was about 35 years ago that I was living in Göteborg).

I had thought that "kycklinglårben" was another way to refer to the whole thing, not just the bone.

I realize that if you want to refer to all four grandparents, you can use one of those constructions, but the reference was to someone having grandparents (i.e. just one pair) staying with them, and I didn't know which it was. I think I settled for "far- eller morföräldrar".

 

[PeroK]

Except people speaking English use the word "Schadenfreude." I heard it yesterday in a BBC podcast. IOW it is on its way to being adopted into the language. Just as Smorgasbord, ombudsman, and a whole host of other words have been.

Many years ago I was speaking (in German) to the German Railways in connection to electronic file transfers. The German used the word die Variable-block-size.

One interpretation of this is that German has no word for variable block size, so uses the English. And, in that sense, it's untranslatable. The other interpretation is that variable block size can be translated into German - you just adopt the English as a new German word.

Logically these are equivalent; although, of course, politically and pseudo-scientifically you can argue about it.

 

[green slime]

Many years ago I was speaking (in German) to the German Railways in connection to electronic file transfers. The German used the word die Variable-block-size.

One interpretation of this is that German has no word for variable block size, so uses the English. And, in that sense, it's untranslatable. The other interpretation is that variable block size can be translated into German - you just adopt the English as a new German word.

Logically these are equivalent; although, of course, politically and pseudo-scientifically you can argue about it.

Or, that there is an expression, but that it didn't come to mind, because the speaker is so imbedded with reading literature in English or that the German is so close to the English, precisely because it is not English to start with...

In Swedish, it would be "Variabel blockstorlek", and that is correctly spelled and translated. I'm guessing it's something similar in German. Listeners can often hear what they expect, which is yet another fascinating aspect of human communication. How do we really manage to communicate at all?!?

Variable" comes from a Latin word, variābilis, with "vari(us)"' meaning "various" and "-ābilis"' meaning "-able", meaning "capable of changing".

"Block" is in itself a very old word from Germanic or old French ('bloc' ca 1300), feel free to argue.

"Size" is another word borrowed from French (1300s) ...

 

[pinball1970]

Yes words are adopted and hi-jacked but that is not what I was getting at.

Do I “feel” the same as a German when I say the word? what does the word evoke? What is lost in translation? What am I meant to get from the word?

Any in terms of untranslatable …

Bulldozer is a good one is one that went over the channel in the other direction, to France.

The word does not really make sense at all, What does a bull have to do with a truck? Dozing in English means sleep, that what I though it was as a kid.

Just looked it up and it has connections to the industrial revolution, a machine that bends metal and also the “dose” of a bull ie being big, presumably a large pile moved by the digging part.

Having explained all that to the French powers that be (in the 19C presumably when they decided they could do with a few) they must have turned round and said, nope that’s stupid cannot be bothered with all that well just call it Le Bulldozer.

Ease, speed and a little bit of laziness may have played apart besides just being deemed untranslatable

Potato faired better

 

[green slime]

bulldoze (v.)​

by 1880, "intimidate by violence," from an earlier noun, bulldose "a severe beating or lashing" (1876), said by contemporary sources to be literally "a dose fit for a bull," a slang word referring to the intimidation beating of black voters (by either blacks or whites) in the chaotic 1876 U.S. presidential election. See bull (n.1) + dose (n.). The bull element in it seems to be connected to that in bull-whip and might be directly from that word.

bulldozer (n.)​

"person who intimidates others by threats or violence," 1876, agent noun from bulldoze (q.v.). Meaning extended to "an engine-powered ground-clearing caterpillar tractor" in 1930.

From
https://www.etymonline.com/word/bulldozer

 

[pinball1970]

bulldoze (v.)​

by 1880, "intimidate by violence," from an earlier noun, bulldose "a severe beating or lashing" (1876), said by contemporary sources to be literally "a dose fit for a bull," a slang word referring to the intimidation beating of black voters (by either blacks or whites) in the chaotic 1876 U.S. presidential election. See bull (n.1) + dose (n.). The bull element in it seems to be connected to that in bull-whip and might be directly from that word.

It is not that the word has multiple cryptic or crystal etymology it is the fact the word was taken wholesale rather than do a potato on it.

 

[symbolipoint]

Or, that there is an expression, but that it didn't come to mind, because the speaker is so imbedded with reading literature in English or that the German is so close to the English, precisely because it is not English to start with...

In Swedish, it would be "Variabel blockstorlek", and that is correctly spelled and translated. I'm guessing it's something similar in German. Listeners can often hear what they expect, which is yet another fascinating aspect of human communication. How do we really manage to communicate at all?!?

Variable" comes from a Latin word, variābilis, with "vari(us)"' meaning "various" and "-ābilis"' meaning "-able", meaning "capable of changing".

"Block" is in itself a very old word from Germanic or old French ('bloc' ca 1300), feel free to argue.

"Size" is another word borrowed from French (1300s) ...

I say, all English native-speakers return to the use of the Anglo-Saxon language!(that is supposed to be a humorous remark.)

 

[CelHolo]

I think you can explain most words of course, but that's not really the same as a practical translation and there are certainly words with complex cultural connotations that even with a long explanation one will not fully understand their scope and use. Rather you'd need long term immersion in that language. So in this sense there would be untranslatable words.

 

[green slime]

I think you can explain most words of course, but that's not really the same as a practical translation and there are certainly words with complex cultural connotations that even with a long explanation one will not fully understand their scope and use. Rather you'd need long term immersion in that language. So in this sense there would be untranslatable words.

In that sense, every word is untranslatable. Take that a step further, and that just means no humans can ever really understand each other, even when attempting to do so in what appears to be the same language. Differing cultures and interpretations exist within each country.

 

[CelHolo]

In that sense, every word is untranslatable. Take that a step further, and that just means no humans can ever really understand each other, even when attempting to do so in what appears to be the same language. Differing cultures and interpretations exist within each country.

I don't see any connection between needing immersion in a second language to nail down advanced vocabulary use and "no humans can ever understand each other". The former is just a basic aspect of language learning, the latter is an unrelated overblown non-sequitur.

If you learn a language different enough from your native language(s) it's often the case that some words take a long time to learn the correct usage of, so clearly any short explanation or footnote in a translation is usually not entirely enough and you need immersion. Doesn't mean people can't understand each other.

 

[fresh_42]

I think what really makes different languages different are not specific words that may not have a one-to-one correspondence, it is the metaphors, aphorisms, and idioms. We have expressions that everyone understands, but which do not make any sense at all if translated.