What Does the Russian Word Poshlost Really Mean?

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In summary, this conversation discusses the untranslatable words "poshlost" and "saudade", and Milan Kundera's belief that there is no English equivalent for either word. Kundera also discusses the key emotion word "saudade", which has no direct equivalent in English. He also mentions the German word "dawai" and the Russian word "kartoffel".
  • #141
CelHolo said:
I don't see any connection between needing immersion in a second language to nail down advanced vocabulary use and "no humans can ever understand each other". The former is just a basic aspect of language learning, the latter is an unrelated overblown non-sequitur.

If you learn a language different enough from your native language(s) it's often the case that some words take a long time to learn the correct usage of, so clearly any short explanation or footnote in a translation is usually not entirely enough and you need immersion. Doesn't mean people can't understand each other.
Because at the stage of understanding that you are talking about, it's not really the language you are immersing in, it is the culture. Langauge is part of the culture.
 
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  • #142
CelHolo said:
some words take a long time to learn the correct usage of
And sometimes there is no other way than to learn them as complete expressions, or even: handful of expressions (still belonging to the same word).
 
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  • #143
green slime said:
Because at the stage of understanding that you are talking about, it's not really the language you are immersing in, it is the culture. Langauge is part of the culture.
Yeah and some words denote cultural concepts, thus requiring immersion for a full understanding.

Anyway I think I've said all I can.
 
  • #144
Another funny phenomenon is that between the Dutch and Belgium language (the Flanders part). They are actually the same languages (the winner of the yearly Dutch national spelling contest is usually Belgian...) but the Dutch have some, I don't know, lack of collective self esteem?!? They (we... I'm Dutch...) always think a new untranslated word from English (or France a couple of decades back) is way cooler/fancier/urban? than coming up with a new word.

Our Belgian neighbors actually do come up with new words, and that sounds sometimes really funny for a Dutchman... :) Some examples (Guess only funny for the Dutch people around here):

Flanders - Dutch:
Droogzwierder/ droogslingeraar/ droogkast – Centrifuge (from French I guess...)
Pompelmoes – Grapefruit (English)
Valschermspringer – Parachutist (French)
Wipzaag – Decoupeerzaag (French)
Zelfklever – Sticker (English)
Zwerfauto – Camper (English)

Ps: And Belgium have the tendency to turn words and expressions around...
appelsien - sinasappel
zeker en vast - vast en zeker
fauna en flora - flora en fauna

Pps:
Another example, maybe even more funny is between Dutch and African:
Amperbroekkie - string (same as English word)
Hysbak - lift (again, same as English)
Yuppiegriep - burn-out (again...)
Stokkielekker - lolly (...)
 
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  • #145
A nice discussion of this at
https://www.deviantart.com/forum/devart/general/2651614/
 
  • #146
Arjan82 said:
Guess only funny for the Dutch people around here
This was also fun for a half-Dutch, half-Belgian reader.
 
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  • #147
S.G. Janssens said:
This was also fun for a half-Dutch, half-Belgian reader.
And I observed that Flanders is closer to its German origin whereas Dutch imports new English terms.
 
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  • #148
Here is another untranslatable German word: egal.

It obviously stems from French égal which is from Latin aequalis (equal). We use it as an adjective, but it does not mean equal. It means: I don't care (bother), anyway, equally valid, up to you. One can say that something is egal (anyway, equally valid), or it is egal to me (don't care, up to you as an answer to an or question). What makes it untranslateable is the inherent lethargy, so egal that even a single word is almost one too many (let alone a sentence in order to capture the meaning).
 
  • #149
fresh_42 said:
Here is another untranslatable German word: egal.

It obviously stems from French égal which is from Latin aequalis (equal). We use it as an adjective, but it does not mean equal. It means: I don't care (bother), anyway, equally valid, up to you. One can say that something is egal (anyway, equally valid), or it is egal to me (don't care, up to you as an answer to an or question). What makes it untranslateable is the inherent lethargy, so egal that even a single word is almost one too many (let alone a sentence in order to capture the meaning).
Yeah, whatever!
 
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  • #150
PeroK said:
Yeah, whatever!
Close, but we have whatever, too.
 
  • #151
fresh_42 said:
Here is another untranslatable German word: egal.
Presumably that is the root of egalitarian?
 
  • #152
fresh_42 said:
Close, but we have whatever, too.
When I learned the expression mir ist egal, it was a bit of a shock that the Germans could ever be that relaxed about anything! I would have thought that Nein, mir ist nicht egal!, would be more common. :wink:
 
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  • #153
  • #154
PeroK said:
When I learned the expression mir ist egal, it was a bit of a shock that the Germans could ever be that relaxed about anything! I would have thought that Nein, mir ist nicht egal!, would be more common. :wink:
Have a look at what we sent to the ESC:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPZX7EZIFD0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lddoHQIZQto
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1SG2wWcDlk


And the country is full of Monty Python fans. We even celebrate a British sketch every year (31 days to go from now on) which has long been forgotten in the UK:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk1Uul6cQhk


My German teacher once gave the best definition of egal I ever heard. Unfortunately, I cannot tell here.
 
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  • #155
Kokoro implies one's intellectual responses, or, in other situations, implies one's emotional reactions, and in many cases, it connotes inclusively the mental, emotional and spiritual states of all sentient beings. Since it is an intangible and elusive word, it is difficult to analyze its meaning and define even in the Japanese language. https://japanhouse.illinois.edu/education/insights/kokoro
Indeed after visiting this web page I felt I knew even less. Maybe it really is an untranslatable word.
 
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  • #156
Hornbein said:
Indeed after visiting this web page I felt I knew even less. Maybe it really is an untranslatable word.
Equals "gestalt."
 
  • #157
I felt this gave me insight into the meaning of kokoro.
 
  • #158
French has no word for "lime". It's a "green lemon" instead.
 
  • #159
Vanadium 50 said:
French has no word for "lime". It's a "green lemon" instead.
And German has no separate word for "glove", which is "Handschuh".
 
  • #160
Bystander said:
(kokoro) Equals "gestalt."
"Strike your opponent's gestalt with your gestalt!" ... I don't know...
 
  • #161
PeroK said:
And German has no separate word for "glove", which is "Handschuh".
It seemed hilarious to me when I learned that "ertrunken" means drowned, knowing by then that "trinken" meant to drink.
 
  • #162
Swamp Thing said:
It seemed hilarious to me when I learned that "ertrunken" means drowned, knowing by then that "trinken" meant to drink.
Prefect: "It's rather unpleasantly like being drunk."
Dent: "What's so wrong with being drunk?"
Prefect: "Ask a glass of water."
 
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  • #163
Vanadium 50 said:
French has no word for "lime". It's a "green lemon" instead.
PeroK said:
And German has no separate word for "glove", which is "Handschuh".
Chinese is filled with words like this. “Tomato” is “western red persimmon.” And “panda” is “bear cat,” but “panda” isn’t a Chinese-English transliteration of “bear cat” (which is “xiongmao” in Mandarin). Apparently the English etymology of “panda” runs through some Nepali language.
 
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  • #164
Chinese : Back in 1850 or so Western currency was "little beards." A US citizen was a "second rate Englishman."

The word for horse is "kudu" both in Nepali and Indonesian. I'm fairly sure the cultures have a common ancestor, not so much because of the languages though. The way the people look and live is similar.
 
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  • #165
Youtube knew I was interested in the meaning of kokoro so it helpfully sent me this little gem. Rocks a ton. You may be put off by the sleaze but don't bail out before the surprise ending. Though I can't claim it taught me anything about kokoro.
 
  • #166
TeethWhitener said:
Chinese is filled with words like this.
I guess it's some definite clue that how seriously can the 'alphabet' affect the 'openness' of a language.
Hard to borrow words from different languages when you just won't have the right 'letter' to write them down...
Compared to that other languages are full of borrowed words.
 
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  • #167
Rive said:
I guess it's some definite clue that how seriously can the 'alphabet' affect the 'openness' of a language.
Hard to borrow words from different languages when you just won't have the right 'letter' to write them down...
Compared to that other languages are full of borrowed words.
Chinese has plenty of borrowed words. “Coffee” is “ka fei” (where the characters are meaningless on their own), “chocolate” is “qiao ke li” (literally translates to something along the lines of “clever strong restraint”) “party” is “pai dui” (literally “river answer,” although now the character “pai” has become incorporated into a number of different words associated with groups of people, including political parties), etc.

Many foreign place and person names are transliterated into something borderline meaningless (“Biden” is “bai deng”—pronounced “buy dung,” but before the conservatives laugh too hard, “Trump” is “te lang pu”—pronounced “to long poo.” Interestingly, “trump” used as a noun is “wang pai,” literally “king card”).
 
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  • #168
Hornbein said:
Youtube knew I was interested in the meaning of kokoro so it helpfully sent me this little gem. Rocks a ton. You may be put off by the sleaze but don't bail out before the surprise ending. Though I can't claim it taught me anything about kokoro.
My 11th grade lit teacher had a thing for Japanese literature and assigned us this book (translated into English). Highly recommend.
 
  • #169
TeethWhitener said:
Chinese has plenty of borrowed words.
I really wonder how would that 'plenty' look on statistical level.

We got no restraints from written language for quite long, and the history here is kind of like a whole bar smashed into a barrel of beer, so at the end while in everyday speech around 60-80% of the words has (at least partial) ancient roots, the known number of our ancient root-words is only around a thousand...
 
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  • #170
DennisN said:
We have a new, pretty funny, word in Swedish: skämskudde (which roughly means "embarrassement pillow".
From wiktionary:
I also remember reading a fun article about Japanese words that don't translate well. I will see if I can find it again.
Maybe "cringeworthy"
 
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