What Have Educators Learned About Distance Learning?

[mathwonk]

I had an experience sort of like fake answers posted online while teaching complex analysis, and it did trap my student, but it was accidental. I gave a take home exam, which was open book. Apparently some students assumed this meant they could research answers online, although I had only meant that our designated book was open to them. When I handed back the graded work, one student complained that I had made a mistake by counting a particular answer as wrong. The reason they gave was that the online answer source for our book had a different answer from mine. I went ballistic: not only had the student copied the answer from an answer book, whose existence I had not suspected (why would anyone waste time writing out all the problem answers for a book when that does no one any good?), but they had disrespected my expertise, which hurt my ego. The answer in the answer book was wrong due to a basic error made by the graduate student writing the book, but I was insulted that my student did not think their professor was more reliable than some random online source. Allowing my ego to get involved was my error, and I almost missed the opportunity to teach my student.

By telling me openly that they had copied the answer from online, it is arguable that the student thought this was acceptable, and I now think I should have been more clear in my expectations. This is the sort of behavior you and I probably would think is so clearly out of line that it would not need clarification, but to some students, everything has to be spelled out. My opinion is that at least this one student probably would not again consult an answer book online if I said that was not permitted. I did not give the student credit for that problem, which was wrong, but i did not penalize them more severely for cheating, since I was convinced they really did not get the point that online research for answers was off limits. In teaching, and examining, it seems there is almost nothing one can safely take for granted. So no matter how faithfully you anticipate it will be abided by, I suggest making absolutely every expectation completely explicit in these circumstances.

 

[Andy Resnick]

So I came up with real-life situations, simplified them, and then came up with a problem. Even though there wasn't any Physics beyond what they knew, the students had trouble applying the Physics or math to that real-life situation though. I had to guide them a lot more. Almost no one cheated here. I graded leniently too, however when the test came most of them knew what to do or at least the first few steps. Almost no blank problems too. So coming up with completely new and different problems, if you guide them through, can actually help them understand the Physics better. I realized later that the reason they had so much trouble was because they couldn't just apply a formula (two-step problems)

Fantastic post! I wanted to highlight this in particular- that's exactly what I do in my classes :)

 

[Dr Transport]

I wonder if installing web cameras in the classroom to show the instruction and the behavior of the students would help.

In my experience of substituting, the school would try to enforce some discipline, the parents would react by taking the kid to a doctor who'd diagnose them with ADD or some other issue. The parents woudl demand a special curriculum and other paperwork for their child exempting them from any discipline of any kind. The kid would win and the class would lose.

 

[mathwonk]

@berkeman: "I wonder if installing web cameras in the classroom to show the instruction and the behavior of the students would help."

I once convinced an elementary/junior high teacher in rural Georgia to film her arithmetic class so we could discuss how various presentations worked. The camera was set up in the back of the room. When she reviewed the film, it revealed one student in the class taking out a gun and handing it to another one, so she was unwilling to let the film be used or viewed, and erased it.

This was part of a project funded by the Carnegie Foundation on precollege math education in the US. Even with this editing, the film of what was allowed to be viewed just flabbergasted the non southerners on the evaluative panel. It was one of those investigative projects that winds up with the researchers saying: "but we had no idea!" Meanwhile those of us in the trenches just deal with it.

 

[member 587159]

Yes, I would consider asking a question with no answer to be a lie in the context of an exam.

I was asked on an exam if the Jacobson radical of a polynomial ring is the polynomial ring of the jacobsonradical: $J(R[X])= R(J[X])$.
I responded that that was an open question in ring theory and that was the correct answer.

Some questions can be answered even if it is not the answer you expect.

 

[atyy]

I was asked on an exam if the Jacobson radical of a polynomial ring is the polynomial ring of the jacobsonradical: $J(R[X])= R(J[X])$.
I responded that that was an open question in ring theory and that was the correct answer.

Some questions can be answered even if it is not the answer you expect.

Fine points do not change the fundamental double deception of the scenario presented in post #24. What sort of society do we want our students to build?

 

[symbolipoint]

Fine points do not change the fundamental double deception of the scenario presented in post #24. What sort of society do we want our students to build?

The sort in which cheating on important things is discouraged. (I did take an extra look at post #24.)

Using an online search to find a cheat for a technical or scientific academic examination is a big-item cheat and this kind should not be allowed. The teacher or professor who wrote that quoted article was being very honest with the students about his method to catch cheaters.

 

[vela]

Teachers should detect cheating and ensure that exams are as fair as possible, but they should use honest methods.

Would you be fine with the tactic if a correct solution was posted but worded and completed in a rather unique way? I've noticed when students cheat, because they often don't know what they're doing, they copy everything in a solution—mistakes, unique notation, etc.—often even preserving the relative positioning of work on the paper.

I guess I'm wondering why you think the teacher is being deceptive here. Teachers aren't obligated to inform students about the anti-cheating methods they're using.

 

[atyy]

The sort in which cheating on important things is discouraged. (I did take an extra look at post #24.)

Using an online search to find a cheat for a technical or scientific academic examination is a big-item cheat and this kind should not be allowed. The teacher or professor who wrote that quoted article was being very honest with the students about his method to catch cheaters.

Yes, I agree that teachers must try to detect and prevent cheating. Teachers must try to make sure exams are fair. But I do not agree that the teacher in that scenario was honest.

Would you be fine with the tactic if a correct solution was posted but worded and completed in a rather unique way? I've noticed when students cheat, because they often don't know what they're doing, they copy everything in a solution—mistakes, unique notation, etc.—often even preserving the relative positioning of work on the paper.

I guess I'm wondering why you think the teacher is being deceptive here. Teachers aren't obligated to inform students about the anti-cheating methods they're using.

The teacher is dishonest because
(1) He deliberately set a flawed question
(2) He deliberately posted a flawed solution to Chegg
Setting flawed questions and posting flawed solutions are not dishonest in themselves - that happens, and when it does, one tries to correct the error. However, in this case, these were done purposefully, which makes it dishonest.

Please note that at this time no evidence has been presented here that such an incident actually took place.

 

[symbolipoint]

he teacher is dishonest because
(1) He deliberately set a flawed question
(2) He deliberately posted a flawed solution to Chegg
Setting flawed questions and posting flawed solutions are not dishonest in themselves - that happens, and when it does, one tries to correct the error. However, in this case, these were done purposefully, which makes it dishonest.

Please note that at this time no evidence has been presented here that such an incident actually took place.

One would intuitively understand that Chegg is not a primary source for knowledge and trustworthy answers, but maybe this is incorrect thinking.

 

[atyy]

One would intuitively understand that Chegg is not a primary source for knowledge and trustworthy answers, but maybe this is incorrect thinking.

Well, obviously a fake scenario, would have been more convincing if it had said PF

Joking here obviously (before I get sued by Chegg)

 

[ZapperZ]

Coming to more on-topic discussion, the semester is finally over for me, and I can take a big sigh of relief.

My physics class, for the first time ever, did not have a single "A" grade. It was disappointing considering that when we went to totally remote, I had 3 out of 7 who were in the A range. All 3 had their grades dropped considerably after we went online, even when I hounded after them for either missing assignments or struggling to complete certain tasks.

The only consolation here was that no one had a grade below a "C". I think the final exam that I gave (which all came out of my head and not found online or on Chegg... at least for now) was quite a challenge even for an open-book exam. It wasn't extra hard, just ... challenging .. since it incorporated stuff from not only from this semester, but also the previous physics course (this was a "Physics 2" course). So they had to solve a bit of mechanics as well that was part of the whole problem.

My Astro class was close to being a trainwreck. About 1/3 of the students failed, and most of them didn't even take the final exam. I think they were declaring a "No-Credit" to take up the school's offer to be able to retake the course during the next 3 semesters for free if they end up with either an "F" or "D".

There is an art and a science to teaching online. That much I know. Without understanding not only the techniques, but also the pedagogy and psychology of online education, your remote instruction may not be as effective as you think. As I've stated before, I've had some training to running a hybrid class. But this training was institution-specific. It doesn't transfer to another institution. So over the summer, I've decided to enroll in the online Quality Matters training that appears to have a wider accreditation for online instructors. I know that the school that I'm at accepts such training as evidence that someone has the credentials to run online and hybrid classes. So I've signed up for 3 minimum courses that I know are part of the requirement to be certified as an online/hybrid instructor. I'm just preparing myself for the worst case scenario that we won't be back in full force in the Fall. If the courses that I'll be teaching either got moved to 100% remote, or as a hybrid class, then I want to be well-prepared for it and not get blindsided like this past semester.

Speaking of Chegg, one of my colleagues told me that he designed his final exam so that each student had a unique set of questions. He said that while the final exam was going on (remotely), he was monitoring Chegg, and much to his surprise, within the first hour, 4 of his questions appeared there. And because they were unique to the individual students, he automatically could identify of the students who posted the questions there and sought help.

So certainly the issue of dishonesty in remotely-administered exams came up quite a bit during our faculty meetings. Many of us certainly tried to make it harder for a student to "cheat", but of course, there's nothing to prevent a student to ultimately have someone else do the exam for him/her, which is the hardest thing to catch and collect evidence for. As I've said before, this whole debacle has simply re-enforced my skepticism of the knowledge and skill of a student taking an online course in physics and other sciences. I don't know anything about other subject matter, but I know that TurnitIn has been extensively used by courses that require a lot of essay writing to prevent outright copying and plagiarism.

This is going to be a never-ending battle if we continue to have more remote learning.

Zz.

 

[atyy]

Speaking of Chegg, one of my colleagues told me that he designed his final exam so that each student had a unique set of questions. He said that while the final exam was going on (remotely), he was monitoring Chegg, and much to his surprise, within the first hour, 4 of his questions appeared there. And because they were unique to the individual students, he automatically could identify of the students who posted the questions there and sought help.

Was it a small class that he could manually word the question differently for each student, or did he have some software that would automatically vary the questions from student to student?

 

[symbolipoint]

I just now reported a LIKE for ZapperZ's post, #82, but one single LIKE is not enough for that post, by a great distance.

 

[mathwonk]

I'm not sure what to make of statements that the grades in my class were such and such without including some impression of who the professor is. I recall a grad student at my university who was from maybe Africa and he said the average grades in his undergrad classes had been around 55%, but he was a star in our program, easily getting A's, which for us was maybe 90%. I also was famous for having an average grade in my calculus class of say 50%, but one of my students placed highly in the departmental calculus competition, which was usually dominated by students from the advanced honors section. Indeed my student was the only one to place who was not in the advanced honors section. I was often criticized for disadvantaging my students in regard to departmental recognition for their relative grades, but I was trying to help them compete against students from the best schools. I may have been wrong, but I thought I meant well. My point is, I would be proud to have a B from ZZ.

 

[vela]

The teacher is dishonest because
(1) He deliberately set a flawed question
(2) He deliberately posted a flawed solution to Chegg
Setting flawed questions and posting flawed solutions are not dishonest in themselves - that happens, and when it does, one tries to correct the error. However, in this case, these were done purposefully, which makes it dishonest.

But if he had used a legit question and posted a legit solution, you'd be fine with the tactic? Some people feel that the tactic itself crosses the line. I don't think it does, but I doubt I'd go to that effort to try catch cheaters.

 

[atyy]

But if he had used a legit question and posted a legit solution, you'd be fine with the tactic? Some people feel that the tactic itself crosses the line. I don't think it does, but I doubt I'd go to that effort to try catch cheaters.

I'd have to think about it - it seems ok, but I still have my reservations as it seems to have an element of deception - I think one wants to be as straightforward as possible with the students - you know, do unto others as you would ... (ok, maybe different if I'm setting an entry exam for the NSA ). I think a clear cut case of something that is ok (and is already widely practiced) is to let your students know ahead of time that you will use Turnitin (or similar software) to check that they did the work and did not simply copy huge chunks of it from elsewhere. I think it is also fine to use things like Zoom to proctor an exam. The point is to be clear and completely transparent with the students ahead of the exam. Zoom proctoring, although ethically fine, is of course not without its downsides - students may already be stressed from having to suddenly switch to online courses, and having to cope with a complicated technological setup for an exam may add even more stress, eg. if they don't have good wifi at home.

There was an interesting article in APS News about moving courses online at short notice.
https://www.aps.org/publications/apsnews/202004/backpage.cfm
Moving Physics Courses Online on Short Notice
By Chandralekha Singh

 

[Andy Resnick]

[...]
So over the summer, I've decided to enroll in the online Quality Matters training that appears to have a wider accreditation for online instructors. I know that the school that I'm at accepts such training as evidence that someone has the credentials to run online and hybrid classes. So I've signed up for 3 minimum courses that I know are part of the requirement to be certified as an online/hybrid instructor. [...]

Great post- thanks for sharing! We have also encouraged instructors to make use of Quality Matters training that is available for them.

 

[ZapperZ]

Great post- thanks for sharing! We have also encouraged instructors to make use of Quality Matters training that is available for them.

A few of the instructors that had started the courses already from Quality Matters said that the courses were beneficial even for their face-to-face instructions, especially in incorporating various technologies as part of their instructions.

So I am definitely looking forward to such training.

Zz.

 

[anorlunda]

Josh Blackman is a prominent constitutional law professor. He just made a post about some universities announcing that they will reopen live classes in the fall and that they will handle all the COVID testing and contact tracing. Meanwhile, other universities say that they will continue with distance learning.

I think the pressure on these decisions must be intense.

https://reason.com/2020/05/13/the-logistics-of-testing-and-contract-tracing-on-campus/

Universities usually make changes at a glacial pace. Committees meet and discuss issues for months and months. And invariably, any new policy only slightly deviate from former policies. I am not confident that educational institutions can create public health infrastructures in the span of months. I am confident that attempting to create this infrastructure will be extremely expensive, and divert much needed funds from educational missions. Any tuition increase to cover these sorts of unpopular measures will be very unpopular. I am also confident these efforts will distract professors from their primary mission: improving educational opportunities for students. I do not have answers about the correct way forward.

 

[WWGD]

(@anorlunda knows this already, but for the info of others...) Here at the PF the Mentors have noticed an increase in the number of new posters who post schoolwork questions and seem to have little to no idea how to start working on the problem. In more normal times, posts that start with "I have no idea how to start this problem" were often deleted and the user was reminded to show their best attempt when re-posting.

But unfortunately, lately we are getting more young students who really don't have a clue on some of the things they are studying, often because of the difficult distance learning situation that they are finding themselves in. Some of the difficulties that @Andy Resnick mentions above certainly come into play, including not knowing yet how to use the Internet to do background reading (at Wikipedia, Hyperphysics, etc., and how to use good Google searches with directed search terms). They may also have very slow Internet access, which certainly hinders being able to use online learning and research to help with their schoolwork.

So we are consciously trying to be extra patient with such new posters, to help them start to develop the skills they need to be able to work their particular problem, but also to get better at finding the things that they need online to help them overall with their studies.

I may have been too harsh with some of these questions which ( to most adults) would reply by saying" just do a Google/Search engine search". I never seriously considered some of the younger students may not know this or sometimes it requires to filter through lengthy text answers not all of which are written clearly. I will reconsider how to reply to these. You just don't want to feel like an idiot by doing something ( you assume) others can do for themselves. But then you're in a damned if I do...situation in which you may be doing for someone work they can do for themselves.

 

[berkeman]

But then you're in a damned if I do...situation

Agreed. I think the good news is that in most of these cases we've seen lately, the student responds well to the first few hints offered. I haven't seen many cheating-type "I have no idea" posts lately. I wonder if it's related somehow...

 

[bhobba]

He also said that it works best when students watch the lecture on their own, repeating as they see fit, then reserve the classroom/interactive time for questions and working exercises.

Yes - that is my observation when I did my degree part time. It was like the tutorial method often used in England. There, instead you go to a big lecture, which could be online, to hear the material. You read the textbook, notes etc and then attempt the exercises. Then you have small, say 2 hour tutorials, once a week, with the lecturer, and you go through your work and discuss any issues. Students can't goof off under this system - it's too easy to identify those not doing the work. That is best done face to face, but if necessary could be done online. In the current situation the face to face tutorial could easily be appropriately socially distanced, but otherwise I like the idea of a Harkness table.

Thanks
Bill

 

[bhobba]

Lordy

Oh yes - some classrooms are a terrible environment these days. Kids even bring knives to school and threaten teachers. For offending students like that (of course the majority are fine) I have in mind a very special school built around a police station. They are the ones that can legally use force, and I will make it very clear - you get out of line - that's exactly what will happen. I would like to see some parents try the same tactics with police they do with teachers - they might find themselves forcibly thrown in the 'klink'. No attendance issues either - if you do not turn up the police find you and unless you have a legal excuse forcibly 'march' you to school.

There are issues that go the other way as well, the most common one is in public schools the education is supposed to be free. Yet many are forced to pay school fees (they are supposed to be voluntary - but if you do not pay them then you may find 'nasty' letters sent etc). Another common one is the school uniform rort. It works like this. Schools, in consultation with staff, the P&C association, and local community can mandate a school uniform. If you do not wear it then you are constantly given detention slips until you do. But the trick is to have only one place you can buy the uniform and the school gets a cut from the sales. It's all a big bluff because education department rules say if you have any reasonable objection you do not have to wear the uniform. I would, with a copy of Visible Learning by Professor Hattie, see the principle and show him the section on uniforms and that they make zero difference to educational outcomes. I will not spend money on education 'accessories' that make no difference. If they adopt reasonable school uniform policies, rather than use it as a rort, I wouldn't really care and simply go to K-Mart (or similar) and get one (thats what happened when I was a kid - they were all cheaply available at the local discount store) - but scamming parents is IMHO not on.

Thanks
Bill

 

[bhobba]

There are good reasons for colleges to close, but student safety is not one of them. Do you know how many people aged 15-24 died of Covid in the US? 37. Total. Out of a population of 43M. Given a college full-time enrollment of 12M, that means 10 or 11 college students. Compare that to ~50 students murdered per year.

Now, protecting faculty and staff, that's another issue. Liability concerns? Sure. Reducing the spread of disease? Fine. But the argument should not be "think about the children!"

You are being rational. There is no reason for colleges or schools to shut at all, providing appropriate measures are taken to protect staff and students such as a more 'tutorial' kind of model I spoke about before. But here in Australia it's a very very heated issue. Doctors nearly unanimously say, provided appropriate measures are taken, they should remain open. But much of the public, the whole teachers union, and many politicians, think they know better.

Thanks
Bill

 

[Vanadium 50]

There is no reason for colleges or schools to shut at all

I agree that this protects few, if any, students. But there are at least three reasons to shut:

1. Protect the faculty, many of whom are older and high-risk
2. Any school that has a student die from Covid will be sued into oblivion
3. If the expert class exempts itself from the lockdown, why not exempt factory workers, or landscapers, or barbers, or...

 

[anorlunda]

Any school that has a student die from Covid will be sued into oblivion

That applies to any business, not just schools. Many of them are seeking legislative immunity from liability before reopening.

When this crisis started 2 months ago, my sister said that her tech company's executives consulted with lawyers, not doctors. Liability rather than protecting employees was most important in their decision to lock down.

New laws granting immunity from COVID related lawsuits might make good sense.

 

[ZapperZ]

That applies to any business, not just schools. Many of them are seeking legislative immunity from liability before reopening.

When this crisis started 2 months ago, my sister said that her tech company's executives consulted with lawyers, not doctors. Liability rather than protecting employees was most important in their decision to lock down.

New laws granting immunity from COVID related lawsuits might make good sense.

But if the health department or agency has issued a set of guidelines, then all other entities will be legally exposed if they choose to ignore it. So of course businesses will consult attorneys on whether it is sensible for them to ignore such advice. I don't see why this is an issue.

One also does not consult a doctor or doctors in these matters. The issue of public health should not be decided anecdotally. Instead, medical professionals, researchers, epidemiologists, public health experts, etc. work together to provide such a recommendation. It is not and should not be an opinion of one person.

In our case, once the mayor and the governor of the state declared a stay-at-home order, it is no longer a matter of choice or even consulting any lawyers. There were no other options.

Zz.

 

[ZapperZ]

Coming back to the on-topic discussion, for those of you who had to teach remotely and had your first experience at teaching lessons online, after the semester/quarter/course is over, do you think you have gained knowledge and skills to teach courses online? Or do you think that you need more training to be more effective to run online classes? If it is the latter, are you doing anything about it? Does your institution provide you with the opportunity to get the necessary training to run remote classes?

Zz.

 

[bhobba]

I agree that this protects few, if any, students. But there are at least three reasons to shut:

1. Protect the faculty, many of whom are older and high-risk
2. Any school that has a student die from Covid will be sued into oblivion
3. If the expert class exempts itself from the lockdown, why not exempt factory workers, or landscapers, or barbers, or...

Oh yes - you need measures to mitigate those things. The medical advice we keep hearing in Aus is they are manageable, just like they are in many other occupations that have continued working in the pandemic. That's where the debate gets very hard. We have people going to work with the same risks, and in some cases greater risks, than those in the education sector, but some want out. When I say go to work, those in any kind of risk category do not - its done from home. If it can't be done from home then, and nothing else is available, they are put on $1500 per fortnight from the government and wait it out. It's costing our government a fortune, but there seems no alternative. We keep hearing we need to get back to normal fast, but I consider that very irresponsible. Government debt can be paid back - human lives never can.

Thanks
Bill

 

[atyy]

Coming back to the on-topic discussion, for those of you who had to teach remotely and had your first experience at teaching lessons online, after the semester/quarter/course is over, do you think you have gained knowledge and skills to teach courses online? Or do you think that you need more training to be more effective to run online classes? If it is the latter, are you doing anything about it? Does your institution provide you with the opportunity to get the necessary training to run remote classes?

One of the things I use is PollEverywhere, which is the online version of the old-style clickers for students to respond to questions in class. I finished most of my teaching before classes went online, so I didn't have to figure out how to do that online, but I see there are courses from my institution about how to do that, so will probably take one of those courses before next semester.

 

[anorlunda]

Salman Khan. https://www.khanacademy.org is a pioneer in and perhaps the foremost practitioner of distance learning. His opinions on that topic are worth listening to. Here are his TED talks.

 

[ZapperZ]

Salman Khan. https://www.khanacademy.org is a pioneer in and perhaps the foremost practitioner of distance learning. His opinions on that topic are worth listening to. Here are his TED talks.

This is fine and dandy in principle, but how has it been practiced in reality?

I often teach a General Physics class for pre-med, bio, life-science majors who would rather stab their hands than take a physics class if they have the option. They just want a "C" so that they can move on and apply to med school and take their MCAT exam. That's their goal. Now try motivating that type of students and tell them that I'm teaching them how to learn and the amazing wonders of physics.

And btw, it is still debatable if Khan Academy videos are as effective as many have perceived. First of all, it has flaws, be it minor or significant. I've written about one that is right in my wheelhouse. But there have been studies where their effectiveness is still being questioned. See here, here, and here, for example. As a supplement, sure! Even I use one or two of them now and then. But as a replacement for primary source of teaching? Nope!

So his idealism and effectiveness are not commensurate with one another.

Zz.

 

[jedishrfu]

I really like Salman's approach especially the notion of watching a video as homework instead of having to really struggle with no help at home and going to school with the anxiety of not getting your homework completed and having to then scramble with friends to figure it out.

Then again maybe that was a good thing as it taught collaboration under fire and little time.

In my school days, we had none of these resources and had to rely solely on what we remembered from class, what we wrote down as notes (math notes were the hardest to write) and what we could figure out from the book always doubting if the book answer was right.

I had one classmate who did really well in English, History classes taking extensive notes of everything that was said. I couldn't do it, my mind would focus on the notes and then I didn't hear what was said or what was written and why. In contrast, I did well in math because I didn't take notes, I watched and learned. My friend did poorly in math because he couldn't make sense of all the notes he took.

 

[bhobba]

Was it a small class that he could manually word the question differently for each student, or did he have some software that would automatically vary the questions from student to student?

I have given thought to the best way of preventing cheating and the best I have come up with is individual and different assignments for each student (they can even suggest one - that happened a few times in my degree). And the thing I hate is creative thinking on a exam - make the questions similar to tutorials. The creative part should consigned to the assignments.

Thanks
Bill