What were the consequences of Israel's attack on the Gaza Aid Flotilla?

[TubbaBlubba]

I'm sure you've all heard about it - a substantial group of people, most of them being peace advocates and the like - have been attempting to ship some food, tents, concrete and other supplies to gaza via a completely peacefull convoy.

Of course, Israel's military doesn't like this, and attacked the vessels, I believe 6, on international waters. So far I've heard numbers of around 20 seriously injured people, some of them possibly being among the top muslim peace advocates.

I haven't heard very much specifics, and the Israeli military is very strict with letting any information out regarding injured, dead, etc.

To me, this basically constitutes an essential form of state terrorism. I don't know how much longer the west will condone Israel's actions, but I don't hope it's much longer. And I dread to see how Iran and the like will react to this.

It's just such a pity that they couldn't just get there and help people, instead the Israeli military has to turn this into some weaponized conflict...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/10195838.stm - BBC says "more than ten" dead.

 

[Geigerclick]

They had a blockade, and a group which knew this, had protesters ready before the ship ever "sailed" decided to do this. The IDF acted in typical fashion, which is to say, with jack-boots. The issue of who reacts here, is going to be Turkey, not Iran. Turkey is PISSED.

That said, these people who organized this "relief vessel" (read: propaganda tool) knew that the Israeli government couldn't afford to let this slide. They are getting exactly what they want, attention for their "cause", and the fact that they took this terrible risk to get it didn't stop them. The IDF used overkill, but the people who chose to set this into motion are ultimately to blame in this.

This is a political stunt at the expense of lives on the part of several pro-palestinian groups, who stood to win if Israel backed off their existing blockade, or win in the case of the use of force. Israel should learn that this is not an effective way to conduct business, but when a country has a military blockade and you sail into it... you're taking your life into your own hands.

This is a stunt by The Free Gaza Movement, and IHH, and I find it disgusting.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

I see your point. Obviously they were hoping for Israel to react this way, but that in no way condones Israel's actions.

 

[Geigerclick]

I see your point. Obviously they were hoping for Israel to react this way, but that in no way condones Israel's actions.

Agreed, it takes a degree of stupidity to play into the hands of groups such as this, and unless some proof of violence started by the ship's passengers is shown, this would seem to be a case of grotesque overkill. I don't understand why the IDF chose to board the ship, instead of using naval assets to keep it offshore.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

The problem in all of this is that the west tends to be RIDICULOUSLY apologetic to Israel to a point of sheer absurdity, in particular the US.

Whether this has to do with religion, holocaust guilt or just general hate of muslims, I don't know.Though it seems to have gotten to a point - Even our (Sweden's) foreign minister, Carl Bildt, in my opinion a rather egotistical and conservative man who's mostly interested in his own business in oil and weapon dealing, has been somewhat critical of Israel, and he supported the invasion of Iraq.

 

[OmCheeto]

I've been following the story for about a week on http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2010/05/22/israels-navy-will-have-its-work-cut-out". I'd seen no mention of it on any other news media until today. Here's what I know:

Both Israel and Egypt offered to allow the ships to land outside of Gaza, have the cargo inspected by UN officials, and allow non-weapons to enter.

The flotilla organizers refused the offers.

[Judgement]I'll let god decide who gets to go to hell over this mess.[/Judgement]

 

[signerror]

Complete lies. The "peace advocates" instigated the conflict with vicious assaults.

Israeli commandos: Gaza flotilla crew tried to lynch us

The commandos, who intercepted the Turkish ferry Mavi Marmara after it ignored orders to turn back, said they encountered violent resistance from activists armed with sticks and knives. According to the soldiers, the activists threw one of their comrades from the upper deck to the lower after they boarded.

Activists attacked a commando with iron bars as he descended onto the ship from a helicopter, the army said. The IDF said its rules of engagement allowed troops to open fire in what it called a "life-threatening situation".

The soldiers said they were forced to open fire after the activists struck one of their comrades in the head and trampled on him. A senior field commander ordered the soldiers then to respond with fire, a decision which the commandos said received full backing the military echelon.

...

The IDF confirmed that at least eight navy commandos had been wounded, at least two of them seriously, in a fight which apparently broke out after activists tried to seize their weapons.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...gaza-flotilla-crew-tried-to-lynch-us-1.293089

But you don't need to rely on their word alone: here's two separate video recordings. (WARNING: real violence). This is one is from an IDF helicopter at short range (excellent bird's-eye view):



(YouTube channel is official IDF representatives)

And here's a Turkish camera on the ship:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10195838.stm

See e.g. 0:10 and 0:22 to see IDF soldiers getting beaten with crowbars by "unarmed peace activists".

 

[waht]

9 people were killed

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100531/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians

and also another site reported that on that ship was a retired US army colonel, an 80 year old holocaust survivor, and a Nobel laureate. But we don't know whether or not they were killed.

 

[signerror]

By the way, none of this was unexpected. Here's a series of articles in Haaretz (Israeli newspaper), all of which predate the incident:

The IDF on Thursday completed its preparations for countering the international aid flotilla that is heading for the Gaza Strip. Israel announced Thursday that it will prevent the ships from reaching their destination, and warned that it will not hesitate to make use of limited force if it becomes necessary.

Israel considers the effort by international left-wing elements and Islamic organizations as intentional provocation under the guise of humanitarian aid.

...

The basic assumption is that the activists are looking for a clash, and perhaps even a little bloodshed, which will be captured in the media. As far as is known, there are no arms on board the ships.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/mess-report-aid-flotilla-won-t-alter-the-humanitarian-situation-in-gaza-1.292672"

(Prescient!)

...Flotilla organizers arranged the timing so that a potential encounter with the Israeli Navy would occur during the daytime hours, and not during the darkness of night.

...

The organizers had ignored Israeli offers for the flotilla to dock in its southern port of Ashdod, just north of Gaza, and to transport the 10,000 tons of aid to the coastal enclave from there, it said.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/hamas-flotilla-shows-whole-world-opposes-gaza-siege-1.292789"

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/idf-vows-to-block-freedom-flotilla-aid-convoy-to-gaza-1.292424"

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israel-will-try-to-block-flotilla-from-reaching-gaza-but-will-let-aid-through-1.292440"

 

[Count Iblis]

A stupid action by Israel. It is true that Israel was provoked, but then that's the whole point of all demonstrations/potests. Unless Israel can prove that this was a weapon shipment that would have posed a significant threat to Israeli security had it been allowed to go ahead, Israel has violated international law.

Compare what Israel has done to the actions we see off the coast of Somalia, where force is only used if it is really necessary and very often the Somali pirates are free to go after the are disarmed. I would then say that the Israeli action looks far more like the action of the Somali pirates than that of the NATO forces.

 

[waht]

Israel controls Gaza's coastline (legally or illegally) and so how does one reconcile the fact that a ship is heading to Gaza (legally or illegally)?

 

[Flat]

I'm sure you've all heard about it - a substantial group of people, most of them being peace advocates and the like - have been attempting to ship some food, tents, concrete and other supplies to gaza via a completely peacefull convoy.

Of course, Israel's military doesn't like this, and attacked the vessels, I believe 6, on international waters. So far I've heard numbers of around 20 seriously injured people, some of them possibly being among the top muslim peace advocates.

...

It's just such a pity that they couldn't just get there and help people, instead the Israeli military has to turn this into some weaponized conflict...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/10195838.stm - BBC says "more than ten" dead.

Here is the story from yesterday about the convy: http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/05/30/gaza.protest/index.html

Contacted by CNN, the IDF reiterated the Israeli government's offer for the flotilla to dock at Israel's Ashdod port, where supplies would be unloaded and transferred to Gaza.
...
The Israeli government said Thursday it would stop the convoy, and that the IDF has been given instructions to reroute the flotilla to Ashdod. The activists remain adamant that they are headed to Gaza.

Both sides insisted on Sunday they do not want a confrontation.

"We are determined. We are going to bust through the Israeli navy," Qashoo said. But "we are not seeking any confrontation ... we are simply a humanitarian mission."

He said the participants will defend themselves if they must.

So in other words this was more of a publicity to try to provoke Isreal (success).

 

[shoehorn]

So in other words this was more of a publicity to try to provoke Isreal (success).

I suppose that makes the murder of perhaps nineteen people okay then.

 

[tiny-tim]

I suppose that makes the murder of perhaps nineteen people okay then.

(nineteen or nine?)

Seems to have been self-defence …

the BBC has been running a video showing quite clearly, amongst other things, these "peace activists" beating one fallen israeli soldier with iron bars.

 

[pallidin]

Sometimes, cutting-off "humanitarian" supplies cut's-off a relief to terrorists.
I have no problem with that.
It's a bastard situation, after all.

 

[OmCheeto]

I suppose that makes the murder of perhaps nineteen people okay then.

Perhaps if the "Peace" activist's had not assaulted with steel pipes, stabbed, and shot the Israeli soldiers, there would have been no repercussive "murders".

Perhaps these "Peace" activist's should have taken some hints from American "Peace Activist's".

[PLAIN]http://www.english.illinois.edu/-people-/faculty/debaron/wolimages/flowerpower.jpg

 

[OmCheeto]

Sometimes, cutting-off "humanitarian" supplies cut's-off a relief to terrorists.
I have no problem with that.
It's a bastard situation, after all.

There never was a cut off of "humanitarian" supplies.
The United Arab Emirates routinely sends in truckloads of supplies to Gaza.

But I agree with your assessment, that this is a bastard of a situation.

 

[shoehorn]

Perhaps these "Peace" activist's should have taken some hints from American "Peace Activist's".

Indeed, because that clearly worked out so well for the Americans, didn't it?

 

[OmCheeto]

Indeed, because that clearly worked out so well for the Americans, didn't it?

I wasn't there, nor as an 11 year old at the time would I have been able to make much sense of the incident. So I found the mention of the preceding 3 days of violence leading up to the shootings in your wiki article interesting.

Hmmm... I wonder if the incident was burned into my brain...

the United States Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit ruled that authorities did indeed have the right to disperse the crowd.

The dispersal process began late in the morning with campus patrolman Harold Rice, riding in a National Guard Jeep, approaching the students to read them an order to disperse or face arrest. The protesters responded by throwing rocks, striking one campus Patrolman and forcing the Jeep to retreat.

It was just 5 days ago that I posted the following in the Al Jazeera-Facebook page regarding the lead up to today's Gaza incident:

Really Saad? For the last 20 years, the only videos "we've" seen were of Palestinian children throwing rocks at the Israelis. I saw the article you mentioned also. I thought to myself, hmmmm... Finally, the Israelis are throwing rocks back now. Or perhaps it is because of Al Jazeera that I now get the other side of the story.

But the story reminded me a bit of my 10 year old school mates. They were always throwing rocks at each other. I found it to be a very painful game, and didn't much care for it.

Perhaps everyone should put down the rocks. Eh?

 

[shoehorn]

I'm sure that the Palestinian civilians would be more than willing to put down their rocks if the Israeli military would put down their tanks, aircraft, and phosphorous munitions.

Just a thought.

 

[OmCheeto]

I'm sure that the Palestinian civilians would be more than willing to put down their rocks if the Israeli military would put down their tanks, aircraft, and phosphorous munitions.

Just a thought.

And I'm sure the Israeli military would not have had a reason to do so if the Gazan's had not lobbed nearly 9000 mortars and rockets at Israel over the last 10 years.

Awaiting obligatory lockdown...

Salam everyone.

 

[madness]

And I'm sure the Israeli military would not have had a reason to do so if the Gazan's had not lobbed nearly 9000 mortars and rockets at Israel over the last 10 years.

Awaiting obligatory lockdown...

Salam everyone.

This is just ridiculous. In the last major altercation there were around 25 times more Palestinian casualties than Israeli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli–Palestinian_conflict#Casualties), most of whom were civilians and many of whom were women and children. They attacked hospitals and schools and used white phosphorous gas which is illegal by international law (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7831424.stm).

 

[Count Iblis]

The same pro-Israel lobby in the US called the Russian attack on Georgia "brutal aggression", even though Georgia had fired real missiles into civilian areas in South Ossetia, killing hundreds of civilians and peacekeepers in a matter of hours.

 

[Geigerclick]

This is just ridiculous. In the last major altercation there were around 25 times more Palestinian casualties than Israeli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli–Palestinian_conflict#Casualties), most of whom were civilians and many of whom were women and children. They attacked hospitals and schools and used white phosphorous gas which is illegal by international law (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7831424.stm).

It's always women and children.

This is asymmetric warfare, get used to it; this is the way of the world for quite a while to come I would suspect. These people wanted a publicity stunt, and they were willing to pay a cost in blood. Done. Israel should have taken a more measured response for PR if nothing else, but then, when you get rocketed and bombed and peace seems to be a dream... maybe restraint isn't worth it?

Funny, I remember a Kuwaiti friend of mine, a Sheik, who told me just how unwelcome Palestinians are in Kuwait, and most Arab countries. They are considered useful political tools, but no one wants them and they are perceived as having become savage and insane. This is probably not helped by their election of Hamas.

By the way, who are these Palestinians, when there is no Palestine? Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah brother.

*waits for lockdown with OmCheeto*

 

[Geigerclick]

The same pro-Israel lobby in the US called the Russian attack on Georgia "brutal aggression", even though Georgia had fired real missiles into civilian areas in South Ossetia, killing hundreds of civilians and peacekeepers in a matter of hours.

I'm pro-Israel, and I have no problem with Russia slamming Georgia. That said, as with Israel their response is often grossly out of proportion with the provocation. The situation with Russia and its former satellites, is not simply analogues to the issues in the Middle East. It is intellectually dishonest to claim otherwise. Georgia wants to defend what they have, and Russia wants Georgia. That is a very different situation from a longstanding nation vs. a diaspora.

 

[Passionflower]

I'm pro-Israel

I am not.
The creation of that state was a big mistake and causes a lot of pain and suffering in the world.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Complete lies. The "peace advocates" instigated the conflict with vicious assaults.http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...gaza-flotilla-crew-tried-to-lynch-us-1.293089

But you don't need to rely on their word alone: here's two separate video recordings. (WARNING: real violence). This is one is from an IDF helicopter at short range (excellent bird's-eye view):



(YouTube channel is official IDF representatives)

And here's a Turkish camera on the ship:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10195838.stm

See e.g. 0:10 and 0:22 to see IDF soldiers getting beaten with crowbars by "unarmed peace activists".

Uh, yes. They boarded their ships with heavily armed soldiers. They had absolutely no right to do that. I'm not saying that violent resistance was a good idea, but Israel pretty much made an act of warfare by boarding their ships.

 

[Passionflower]

you also think that the USA staged the sinking of an SK vessel to keep a base in Okinawa

I indeed think that.
But perhaps the thought police will do something about that.

 

[russ_watters]

Uh, yes. They boarded their ships with heavily armed soldiers. They had absolutely no right to do that. I'm not saying that violent resistance was a good idea, but Israel pretty much made an act of warfare by boarding their ships.[emphasis added]

That's debateable at best and is for all practical purposes wrong, but at least your tune is changing since the OP!

I find these threads instructive in their predictability. I'm thankful that the Israelis were smart enough to videotape the incident, and I'm just as completely unsurprised that some people assumed the Israelis instigated the violence, as I am unsurprised by the fact that they didn't.

Of course the biggest irony in this issue is that Egypt's blockade of Gaza isn't criticized but Israel's is.

 

[russ_watters]

I indeed think that.
But perhaps the thought police will do something about that.

So I'm guessing you aren't impressed by the physical evidence in the form of the exploded North Korean torpedo?

 

[zomgwtf]

Uh, yes. They boarded their ships with heavily armed soldiers. They had absolutely no right to do that. I'm not saying that violent resistance was a good idea, but Israel pretty much made an act of warfare by boarding their ships.

Hm, I thought that the ship was welcomed to bring the aid to Gaza provided they landed first and had UN inspectors go through everything and remove all weapons. They refused to comply and in wartimes in a highly tense area of the war this is definitely seen as an act of aggression. Israeli soldiers were well within their rights to board the ship and the only way they would ever do that is with heavily armed commandoes.

 

[magpies]

I read that 2 of the israeli soldiers got killed...

 

[zomgwtf]

Of course the biggest irony in this issue is that Egypt's blockade of Gaza isn't criticized but Israel's is.

As well as the fact that the United States, European Union, and Russia are a huge part of this and supported sanctions against Palestinian territories after Hamas was elected into power.

Instead people just focus on Israeli sanctions and Israeli blockades. I think the majority of the world does not like the idea of Hamas having control. It sucks for Israel most because of previous tensions and proximity.

I agree though, russ, that these types of conversations normally go along the same tune. Especially when anti-Israel people begin to get involved.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Hm, I thought that the ship was welcomed to bring the aid to Gaza provided they landed first and had UN inspectors go through everything and remove all weapons. They refused to comply and in wartimes in a highly tense area of the war this is definitely seen as an act of aggression. Israeli soldiers were well within their rights to board the ship and the only way they would ever do that is with heavily armed commandoes.

As far as I understand, this was done on international waters. And once again, this was outside Gaza's shores, yes? You seem to act as if Israel is some sort of supreme justice in this. I don't see why I should have to comply to their standards when boarding Palestinian territory. But then again I find war to be a rather absurd matter. In my opinion, ASSUMING Israel has to check through everything, they should've done it while onloading it on the docks. Bording at sea with heavily armed commandoes is an obvious act of aggression.

 

[zomgwtf]

As far as I understand, this was done on international waters.

Even if that were true, so what?