What were the consequences of Israel's attack on the Gaza Aid Flotilla?

[TubbaBlubba]

I see. Most of what I've posted is basically what I've gathered from news reports and the like (We have independant government-funded news in Sweden as well; much like BBC), including the conceptions of the actual boarding. I do admit that I did perhaps not appreciate the sensitivity of the subject enough.As for what I understand the fact that it was on international waters was a really big deal. But I find it very dubious that the activists were actually violent terrorists (as I said, Israel are very, VERY cautious when it comes to dealing with terrorists) or anything of that sorts; At least the eleven Swedes that were on it were mostly intellectuals (among other, Henning Mankell, one of the most popular authors in Sweden, you might know him as the creator of Wallander). One of the women (A German, I believe) had her one-year-old baby with her (Yeah, kind of irresponsible, I agree), and said that while they of course expected confrontation, they would have imagined that they would prey their ship, not board it.

 

[arildno]

One of the women (A German, I believe) had her one-year-old baby with her (Yeah, kind of irresponsible, I agree), and said that while they of course expected confrontation, they would have imagined that they would prey their ship, not board it.

1. She was a Turk.

2. She is lying through her teeth.
HERE is how the "activists" thought of, and chanted about, the action prior to the confrontation:


And here is one jubilant theologian reflecting on martyrdom, and armed, muslim fleets:
http://www.memri.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/2490.htm

 

[TubbaBlubba]

1. She was a Turk.

2. She is lying through her teeth.
HERE is how the "activists" thought of, and chanted about, the action prior to the confrontation:


And here is one jubilant theologian reflecting on martyrdom, and armed, muslim fleets:

Regarding the first video, I don't speak Arabic, and the first comment is this:
#
Jallabadda99999
1 timme sedan 4
these translations are not even close to accurate, they're almost entirely false

So I wouldn't trust that one too much. I generally don't consider Youtube comments very reputable, but I'm completely unfamiliar with where the video comes from.

The second one appears to be the same. Did you mispaste?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/10208027.stm - What the people that were allowed to go home said. I can't speak for its accuracy, though, and it may obviously be skewed due to the inherent bias (as if Israel's reports aren't)

 

[arildno]

Regarding the first video, I don't speak Arabic, and the first comment is this:
#
Jallabadda99999
1 timme sedan 4
these translations are not even close to accurate, they're almost entirely false

So I wouldn't trust that one too much. I generally don't consider Youtube comments very reputable, but I'm completely unfamiliar with where the video comes from.

The second one appears to be the same. Did you mispaste?

Nonsense.

These are from the MEMRI instute, that a liar says they are falsely translated, is just his personal, sick way of fighting jihad.

 

[mheslep]

...
...
And here is one jubilant theologian reflecting on martyrdom, and armed, muslim fleets:

Same link?

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Doesn't exactly look like they're "protecting the blockade" here...

 

[arildno]

Same link?

Oops, the other should be:


http://www.memri.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/2490.htm

 

[estro]

I'm sure that the Palestinian civilians would be more than willing to put down their rocks if the Israeli military would put down their tanks, aircraft, and phosphorous munitions.
Just a thought.

They day we (I'm Israeli Jew) put our tanks, aircrafts etc down will be our last day upon earth...
I can't understand how one can be so blind to confuse radical blood thirsty muslim terrorists with peace activists...

Maybe one is so blind, because one's mind and heart is full with unfounded hatred just like those "peace activists"...

 

[TubbaBlubba]

They day we (I'm Israeli Jew) put our tanks, aircrafts etc down will be our last day upon earth...
I can't understand how one can be so blind to confuse radical blood thirsty muslim terrorists with peace activists...

Maybe one is so blind, because one's mind and heart is full with unfounded hatred just like those "peace activists"...

I have no hatred for Israel, the Israeli people, the Jewish people or the practitioners of Judaism. I do, and will, however, condemn the repeated actions of the Israel government, and militaries, who are the ones that create the opportunities for these extremists you speak of. Why do you think Hamas is gaining power among the Palestinians? Because they are desperate.

As for that theologian... Well, looking at the reactions from the reporter, I think he was a bit more zealous than they would have expected. However, note what he said by the end, "We hope that they will both reach the shores, and become martyrs." Are you sure we aren't misinterpreting martyr here (Might also be something lost in translation)? Martyr doesn't neccesarily mean you get killed in the name of Allah, you know. In a way, the 599 unharmed people from the convoys still in Israel are martyrs, even if they're still alive and well. They did (presumably) choose to stay of their free will.

 

[arildno]

I'm sure that the Palestinian civilians would be more than willing to put down their rocks if the Israeli military would put down their tanks, aircraft, and phosphorous munitions.

Just a thought.

Yeah, then the Palestinians can live beatifically, and honour-murder their errant girls and gayboys at their own pleasure.

What a wonderful culture Palestinians have to boast of!

 

[arildno]

I have no hatred for Israel, the Israeli people, the Jewish people or the practitioners of Judaism. I do, and will, however, condemn the repeated actions of the Israel government, and militaries, who are the ones that create the opportunities for these extremists you speak of. Why do you think Hamas is gaining power among the Palestinians? Because they are desperate.

As for that theologian... Well, looking at the reactions from the reporter, I think he was a bit more zealous than they would have expected. However, note what he said by the end, "We hope that they will both reach the shores, and become martyrs." Are you sure we aren't misinterpreting martyr here (Might also be something lost in translation)? Martyr doesn't neccesarily mean you get killed in the name of Allah, you know. In a way, the 599 unharmed people from the convoys still in Israel are martyrs, even if they're still alive and well. They did (presumably) choose to stay of their free will.

No, he wanted their blood to be spilled in the conquest of Al-Quds, i.e, Jerusalem (by the Al-Aqsa mosque).

A quite straightforward indication of his dream about annihilating Israel.

He is an evil death cultist, and nothing else.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

No, he wanted their blood to be spilled in the conquest of Al-Quds, i.e, Jerusalem (by the Al-Aqsa mosque).

A quite straightforward indication of his dream about annihilating Israel.

He is an evil death cultist, and nothing else.

He's also a crazy old guy. Look at how the reporter interrupted him when he started saying "jews". I don't think he would be the perfect image of these convoy's intention.So if the convoy inhabitants were terrorists, what about the Swedes on them? One of them is a prominent politician in the Environmentalist party of Sweden, another as I said a prominent author, one was a physician, etc. Not exactly the people you'd expect on a terrorist raid. Were they perhaps "fooled along" by the sly schemes of some terrorists?

 

[estro]

I have no hatred for Israel, the Israeli people, the Jewish people or the practitioners of Judaism. I do, and will, however, condemn the repeated actions of the Israel government, and militaries, who are the ones that create the opportunities for these extremists you speak of. Why do you think Hamas is gaining power among the Palestinians? Because they are desperate.
...

It is very easy to wear pink-glasses and condemn our "repeated" actions when you live you life far away of our situation.
I'm mobilized IDF soldier, and I can ensure you from "inside" that Palestinian people afraid more of their "Hamas Government" then of Israeli solders...

 

[magpies]

No they probably got kidnapped it's good thing israel saved them from their beheadings.

 

[estro]

He's also a crazy old guy. Look at how the reporter interrupted him when he started saying "jews". I don't think he would be the perfect image of these convoy's intention.


So if the convoy inhabitants were terrorists, what about the Swedes on them? One of them is a prominent politician in the Environmentalist party of Sweden, another as I said a prominent author, one was a physician, etc. Not exactly the people you'd expect on a terrorist raid. Were they perhaps "fooled along" by the sly schemes of some terrorists?

Have you seen the video? Or maybe you're blind?

 

[mheslep]

Regarding scepticism that noted professionals such as physicians can be caught up on Jihadist movements: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayman_al-Zawahiri" is a highly intelligent physician, a surgeon no less.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Have you seen the video? Or maybe you're blind?

No reason to be sarcastic here. I'm trying to piece this together for myself.

mhslep: There were 11 Swedes to there. From what I can see, only three of them are of Arabic origin. Two of them were jews (One of the Jewish guys is a physician who has treated my sister, actually).

Looking at a live press conference headed by the aforementioned politician in Sweden

 

[arildno]

So if the convoy inhabitants were terrorists, what about the Swedes on them? One of them is a prominent politician in the Environmentalist party of Sweden, another as I said a prominent author, one was a physician, etc. Not exactly the people you'd expect on a terrorist raid.

Why not?

The videos show unequivocally that
a) The "peace" activists were chanting battle songs
b) Had no qualms of attacking the Israelis.

Coming from a country where the leader of the Socialist Left, while being Minister of Finance, happily went along in a march where others quite clearly shouted "Death to the Joos!", and has never publicly regretted her participation, I have no illusions about the politicians of our neigbouring country.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Why not?

The videos show unequivocally that
a) The "peace" activists were chanting battle songs
b) Had no qualms of attacking the Israelis.

Coming from a country where the leader of the Socialist Left, while being Minister of Finance, happily went along in a march where others quite clearly shouted "Death to the Joos!", and has never publicly regretted her participation, I have no illusions about the politicians of our neigbouring country.

And the two jews? They were suicidal, I suppose? Maybe their hatred for their kinsmen fueled it?

 

[arildno]

As for the author Henning Mankell, he is an old Maoist, and has never regretted his support for one of the most evil regimes that has ever existed in modern history.

 

[arildno]

And the two jews? They were suicidal, I suppose? Maybe their hatred for their kinsmen fueled it?

Probably.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

He's become less extreme these days. But yes, he's a member of what you'd call the "intellectual left" in Sweden. Perhaps somewhat odd in certain views, but not violent extremists.

As opposed to the slightly-less-intellectual left, consisting of antifascist and other happy brick throwers.


No, I find it hard to see this as some sort of violent death convoy. Perhaps time will clear things up.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

..And who killed Yitzak Rabin?

A right-wing radical.

These are nearly all left-wingers, in case it wasn't clear enough. The Israel-Palestina conflict is one of the by far most prominent issues the left focuses on. (that is, the socialist party and the like, not the measly left we have in our parliament)

 

[Geigerclick]

A right-wing radical.

These are nearly all left-wingers, in case it wasn't clear enough. The Israel-Palestina conflict is one of the by far most prominent issues the left focuses on. (that is, the socialist party and the like, not the measly left we have in our parliament)

My point is that being Jewish doesn't somehow immunize you from being on the extreme right, OR THE LEFT.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Well, personally, I've got far too conflicting views of this at the moment. I think I'll have to step back and see what it looks like once things clear up.

Geiger: I thought your point was that the people on the boat were all muslim extremists? Doesn't seem to be the case to me, and this is why it confuses me.

 

[estro]

And the two jews? They were suicidal, I suppose? Maybe their hatred for their kinsmen fueled it?

We (Israel) have a problem, out nature is too soft and peaceful =)
But some take it to the unhealthy extreme bordering with self destruction.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

I would also please see people refrain from using statements like "evil", "death cult" or the like. It only serves to demonize and dehumanize people, and is meaningless in an actual discussion.

 

[EnumaElish]

Oops, the other should be:


http://www.memri.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/2490.htm

By posting these you're making the point that having access to all this information beforehand did not stop IDF from dangling a momentarily defenseless soldier from a helicopter into what they claim to be a lynch mob.

At that point the singular soldier is in mortal peril and has no option but use deadly force against the mob.

Something doesn't add up.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

By posting these you're making the point that having access to all this information beforehand did not stop IDF from dangling a momentarily defenseless soldier from a helicopter into what they claim to be a lynch mob.

At that point the singular soldier is in mortal peril and has no option but use deadly force against the mob.

Something doesn't add up.

Yes, this is another thing that confuses me. As I mentioned before, Israel's practice is surrounding suspected terrorist vessels with naval force, using torpedoes (or similar weaponry) to immobilize them, pouring a special oil on the ship making it impossible to keep your balance on, and THEN boarding the ship with troops wearing special shoes allowing them to walk on the surface.

 

[arildno]

By posting these you're making the point that having access to all this information beforehand did not stop IDF from dangling a momentarily defenseless soldier from a helicopter into what they claim to be a lynch mob.

At that point the singular soldier is in mortal peril and has no option but use deadly force against the mob.

Something doesn't add up.

Hmm..and why should IDF ASSUME that everyone on those boats wouldn't have their courage faltering once they had a real face-down?

1 out of 6 boat-crews were bent upon this type of altercation.

The other boats responded responsibly.

 

[arildno]

I would also please see people refrain from using statements like "evil", "death cult" or the like. It only serves to demonize and dehumanize people, and is meaningless in an actual discussion.

The man is self-demonizing, and doesn't need my assistance in de-humanizing himself.

He has already mutilated himself into this horror, years ago.

And no, it never hurts to actually know your..enemy.

It is, in fact, crucial.

 

[tiny-tim]

Doesn't exactly look like they're "protecting the blockade" here...

(referring to a map showing the ships opposite Tel Aviv, but three times the distance of israeli territorial waters)

You asked this question before, despite the fact that I had specifically dealt with it in my post which you claimed to be reading …

EDIT: Hold on, reading through tiny-tim's post. Also doing some further research before commenting.

Interesting. Would "Breaching a blockade" constitute any vessel reaching harbor?

… and I replied by quoting from that post …

"Breaching or attempting to breach a blockade" includes heading towards the blockade area with the declared intention of entering it …

which certainly includes these ships.

This was from

A ship is "attempting to breach a blockade" even before it reaches the declared blockade area … see for example paragraph 7.7.4 of the U.S.A.'s "[URL
Handbook on the Law of Naval Operations[/URL] …

7.7.4. … Attempted breach of blockade occurs from the time a vessel or
aircraft leaves a port or airfield with the intention of evading the blockade …

I could also have repeated that Paragraph 146 of the San Remo document specifically allows capture of ships in international waters (ie outside "neutral waters", which means waters of a neutral country) …

146. Neutral merchant vessels are subject to capture outside neutral waters if they …
(f) are breaching or attempting to breach a blockade.

Since the occupants of all the ships had publicly declared their intention of breaching the blockade, then (since after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refused to stop) international law entitled the Israelis to capture it anywhere along its route.​

To use your words, it certainly does 'look like the Israelis were "protecting the blockade".'

Please don't raise this issue again as if it hasn't been answered.

 

[TubbaBlubba]

I was referring to the fact that they were, at least from my perspective, very far from the blockade. But maybe that's standard; Naval warfare is as you have noticed not one of my areas of expertise.

 

[Count Iblis]

The last time someone tried to blockade Israel we got the Six Day war. A Turkish blockade would certainly trigger total war between the two countries. A country would have to be insane to invite that kind of violence because of an incident like this

Yes, but then other actions are possible. NATO has already condemned the Israeli action, so you can well imagine NATO supplying Gaza with goods that Israel won't currently let through.

 

[Count Iblis]

We (the USA) intercept ships en route to Iran and NK, and from them under this same law. Note the lack of international outrage. The issue here is poor PR on the behalf of the Israelis, and a successful stunt on the other side. The condemnation of Israel has become so trite and tired at this point that it is hard to take it seriously anymore.

Lets make this simple, this is the international equivalent of tossing puppies under a bus, catching it on camera, and generating outrage against the bus-driver.

No ships are intercepted in international waters by the US except for Somali pirate ships. Ships from North Korea have been inspected when they wanted to re-supply. Intercepting an Iranian or North Korean ship in international waters would likely trigger a war that no one wants.