Where did all the physics ladies go?

[b.shahvir]

The question is, why don't many women win the Nobel prize?? The fact is gender equality is motivated by gender politics and an increasing media marketing trend. How many female engineers even do pursue engineering in future?!

 

[TheSodesa]

No reaction to this one! Was it a bad thing to say?

There was nothing really bad about your statement, except that I don't really get what you mean by non-physical differences. Don't we all act differently exactly because we are different physically? Aren't out actions the consequence of the chemical reactions going on in our brains?

Personally I'd call those physical phenomenon, but that's just me, and if we start delving too much into this topic, this thread is going to get sidetracked.

 

[Jarfi]

I was in the "Physics I" field in college, lol we were 10 guys and one girl... I kind of felt bad for that girl and sometimes the guys would tease her, a large portion of the guys was socially inept too and many of them were kind of annoying. There were a few good looking guys that were funny and fun to be around, but most were some sort of weird. So I DO understand why most "average" women who are not super nerdy don't go into physics,

The guys in physics tend to be socially inept/annoying, not all, but a large portion in my experience, and this is the stereotype, women are like it or not very social creatures, and women need a healthy nurturing surrounding to enjoy themselves. This is why they don't go into physics I think.. because the COMMUNITY is 90% men and out of these men many are not that great or fun to be around women.

Oh and btw, that girl .. she was into astronomy too hehe, don't ask me why.

(if any of you creeps think I am that girl then the answer is no, so don't message me)

 

[RonL]

Without my glasses, I can't be sure. She bears some similarity to Linda Park from "Star Trek: Enterprise", but the clothing and graphics don't seem to be from that show. She played a Dr. in the "Chemistry" episode of "Legends". Could that be it? (I've never seen the show.)

Thanks Danger, woke up at 3 AM and saw your post, a little research put me close I think, the series was named "Legend" by Richard Dean Anderson of Stargate and MacGuyver fame, he (Richard) had a girlfriend that looked a lot like the picture of this physics girl.
Anyway it's been a little bit of fun, I'm getting sleepy again, going back to bed:)

 

[RonL]

No reaction to this one! Was it a bad thing to say?

IMO, It might be just short of the perfect thing to say, there's a reason for the saying "men are from Mars and women are from Venus". I have lived enough to see changes in how women see themselves in relation to male/female qualities.:)

 

[zoki85]

Women Nobel laurates : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_Nobel_laureates
Really small number. That's bad

 

[BiGyElLoWhAt]

Women Nobel laurates : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_Nobel_laureates
Really small number. That's bad

Eh, when you consider the fact that there arent that many women pursuing careers in those fields (topic of this thread), it makes sense that there would be less women winning Nobel prizes as well.

 

[Monique]

This is the "Science Vision 2025: future choices" report of the Dutch government (cover image), do I detect a gender bias? Their excuse: only Dutch nobel laureates were picked. Well, I would've picked the current top Dutch scientists with the highest national distinction (you could make a cover with only women). A missed chance, imo.

 

[PeroK]

This is the "Science Vision 2025: future choices" report of the Dutch government (cover image), do I detect a gender bias? Their excuse: only Dutch nobel laureates were picked. Well, I would've picked the current top Dutch scientists with the highest national distinction (you could make a cover with only women). A missed chance, imo.

View attachment 76086

I agree with your point, more or less. I was thinking, however, that if these men were the most notorious Dutch criminals, would you request that they find 16 notorious Dutch women to replace them?

 

[Nikitin]

This is the "Science Vision 2025: future choices" report of the Dutch government (cover image), do I detect a gender bias? Their excuse: only Dutch nobel laureates were picked. Well, I would've picked the current top Dutch scientists with the highest national distinction (you could make a cover with only women). A missed chance, imo.

View attachment 76086

Are really all the current top Dutch scientists women? Who are they?

 

[Monique]

I agree with your point, more or less. I was thinking, however, that if these men were the most notorious Dutch criminals, would you request that they find 16 notorious Dutch women to replace them?

That is a strange question? Of course, it should be a reflection of society. I'm not saying all should be female, but at least let a few female scientists represent the science vision of the future. The least one can do is select people who are still alive.

Are really all the current top Dutch scientists women? Who are they?

No they are not, just like not all top Dutch scientists are male. A selection of 3/16 faces would represent the ratio of the "Dutch Nobel prize" (aka Spinozopremie) and that would already satisfy me. If you're really interested: http://www.nwo.nl/onderzoek-en-resultaten/programmas/spinozapremie/spinozalaureaten/alfabetisch+overzicht

 

[Nikitin]

Yeah I got confused when you said "you can make the top Dutch scientist cover made up of women only", but never mind that I see what you meant now. Anyway, really Monique, what's more probable:

a) It just so happens they chose the nobel prize as the best measure of scientific prowess, and, as a side effect there are no women on that cover. They meant nothing by it.

or

b) It's a conspiracy aimed at keeping women oppressed.

?

I don't think calling stuff like this out will help your cause tbh. Hell, IMO the only scandalous thing about that cover is that they count Andre Geim as Dutch.

 

[b.shahvir]

Since this thread has already taken on political color (gender is more of a political issue then human rights) so wonder what keeps one from asking where have all the Blacks, Muslims, Asians, Gays, Lesbians the differently-abled... you name it in physics go? Sorry for being blunt.

 

[lisab]

Since this thread has already taken on political color (gender is more of a political issue then human rights) so wonder what keeps one from asking where have all the Blacks, Muslims, Asians, Gays, Lesbians the differently-abled... you name it in physics go? Sorry for being blunt.

For all we know, one (or more) of those guys on the cover could Muslim, gay, differently-abled, etc.

 

[b.shahvir]

For all we know, one (or more) of those guys on the cover could Muslim, gay, differently-abled, etc.

Thank you!... for now this completes the political spectrum.

 

[Monique]

a) It just so happens they chose the nobel prize as the best measure of scientific prowess, and, as a side effect there are no women on that cover. They meant nothing by it.

The ministry defends itself by saying they were looking for examples of excellent science. Sure, Nobel Prize winners have done excellent science. However, the document is about the future of science. Only portraying men is damaging, especially without explaining why only men are shown. It's an example of how history still limits a positive portrayal of female scientists (who are doing excellent science).

 

[b.shahvir]

Thanks Monique for liking my post. I thought I did be trolled :P

 

[Nikitin]

The ministry defends itself by saying they were looking for examples of excellent science. Sure, Nobel Prize winners have done excellent science. However, the document is about the future of science. Only portraying men is damaging, especially without explaining why only men are shown. It's an example of how history still limits a positive portrayal of female scientists (who are doing excellent science).

You can inspire kids for the future by bringing up examples from the past. Truly, the nobel prize winners were probably the most accomplished scientists in the history of the Netherlands, so it's a fair measurement to use.

If you think that science is presented as a male field by the media, you should start doing observations and make an unbiased (if at all possible) paper on it. Cherrypicking stuff like this, which clearly are not sexist, will just discredit you. In my opinion women are just as welcome into STEM as men here. Indeed, a woman at my university recently won a nobel prize and nobody cared at all about her sex.

 

[jz92wjaz]

Most people are going to cheer for an underrepresented minority in science. There are a few people who are sexist and racist and want to keep those they don't like from succeeding, but most of us think those people are idiots. Some studies suggest that (as a result of bias) scientists of both genders tend to unintentionally and unwittingly perceive an equally qualified man as being better at science than the woman. If these Dutch men are indeed the top scientists, there is nothing wrong with the list. If there are women (or other minorities) who've had their work overlooked or unfairly marginalized (unintentionally or otherwise) who belong on that list, there's a problem. We don't have enough information to say for sure which it is.

 

[Monique]

You can inspire kids for the future by bringing up examples from the past. Truly, the nobel prize winners were probably the most accomplished scientists in the history of the Netherlands, so it's a fair measurement to use.

The text nowhere mentions those are Nobel Prize winners, or what their names are. It's a picture of all men in a document about the future of science. That's going to raise some eyebrows. How is it inspiring or bringing up examples, when there is no caption?

If you think that science is presented as a male field by the media, you should start doing observations and make an unbiased (if at all possible) paper on it. Cherrypicking stuff like this, which clearly are not sexist, will just discredit you. In my opinion women are just as welcome into STEM as men here. Indeed, a woman at my university recently won a nobel prize and nobody cared at all about her sex.

I don't have to write a paper, there are people whose expertise are these issues and they have spoken up. Curt Rice (Committee leader on Gender Balance and Diversity in Research in Norway) wrote: "It is true (I guess) that all the men in the pictures are Nobel winners, but that is not stated anywhere in the report, so to the extent that is supposed to be a justification, it's odd that one didn't even feel the need to explicitly make note of that in the report. Why not? Perhaps because those who put it together didn't find anything odd about their little collage. This is actually what they think science (and the future of science) in the Netherlands looks like."

It would discredit me when I point to a discrepancy? Four female Professors have written a newspaper article that the Netherlands should also be proud of female scientists and I admire them for it: they are setting an example.

Women just as welcome to STEM as men? I can tell you about the times I was denied based on prejudices, the sexist comments I receive. I rather not go there. Equal opportunity? No, definitely not.

To go back to the uncaptioned image, at the beginning of the year Elsevier was criticized for a similar image. Their response: Elsevier agrees with criticism about the lack of gender diversity in a recent email campaign. Raising awareness is good.

 

[Nikitin]

The text nowhere mentions those are Nobel Prize winners, or what their names are. It's a picture of all men in a document about the future of science. That's going to raise some eyebrows. How is it inspiring or bringing up examples, when there is no caption?.

Uhm I haven`t seen this document, so fair enough, I don`t know.

I don't have to write a paper, there are people whose expertise are these issues and they have spoken up. Curt Rice (Committee leader on Gender Balance and Diversity in Research in Norway) wrote: "It is true (I guess) that all the men in the pictures are Nobel winners, but that is not stated anywhere in the report, so to the extent that is supposed to be a justification, it's odd that one didn't even feel the need to explicitly make note of that in the report. Why not? Perhaps because those who put it together didn't find anything odd about their little collage. This is actually what they think science (and the future of science) in the Netherlands looks like."

It would discredit me when I point to a discrepancy? Four female Professors have written a newspaper article that the Netherlands should also be proud of female scientists and I admire them for it: they are setting an example.

Women just as welcome to STEM as men? I can tell you about the times I was denied based on prejudices, the sexist comments I receive. I rather not go there. Equal opportunity? No, definitely not.

To go back to the uncaptioned image, at the beginning of the year Elsevier was criticized for a similar image. Their response: Elsevier agrees with criticism about the lack of gender diversity in a recent email campaign. Raising awareness is good.

Gender research in Norway is a joke. They are the force behind highly politicized research on stuff like a person`s brain is a tabul rasa from birth, that parents should raise their children gender-neutral and so on. In addition to to silly research, they are responsible for stuff like Norway`s top technological schools are letting less qualified women enter before more qualified men because "it should be 50-50, otherwise the society is unfair".

Of course the Netherlands should be proud of their female scientists, they should be proud of all their scientists! But overreacting over some picture in some document will just make you look extreme. How important was that document anyway? I would spend my time fighting real sexism. Educate immigrants, create groups that give women a place to come for advice in case of discrimination and so on.

I don`t know what you went through, and I am sorry if it was discrimination, but here in Norway from my POV the opportunities are equal in STEM. At least in my university. I have many female friends, and not once have I heard a complaint about this. Actually, the only hyper-feminist I met was a guy.

 

[Monique]

Gender research in Norway is a joke.

The person is a committee member of Gender Balance and Diversity in Research, that's different from gender research :)

Of course the Netherlands should be proud of their female scientists, they should be proud of all their scientists! But overreacting over some picture in some document will just make you look extreme. How important was that document anyway? I would spend my time fighting real sexism. Educate immigrants, create groups that give women a place to come for advice in case of discrimination and so on.

The document is highly important: it's the scientific agenda for the next 10 years and should be read by every policy maker and scientist.

It's hard to change gender imbalance. Even if it is up-in-your-face, there is nothing that can be done. Unless you have suggestions? How about a job application with the following oral rejection: "you can't apply, we're not considering females".

Or how about of a pool of postdocs, of whom >50% are female. Ask group leaders to nominate excellent postdocs and end up with <10% females. Excellent females were even 'randomly' kicked out, because there was a surplus of candidates. When you ask "how is that possible", the reply is "we're also surprised that so few females were nominated".

The only thing to do is point to discrepancies and hope people will change their way.

 

[Nikitin]

Do you know the exact circumstances behind that post-doc thing? How do you know it's not a unique case outside of the norm? But indeed it is true that women are less loud and aggressive than males in general, so the probability of a woman to be less noticed in group-work settings would be higher I expect.

 

[jz92wjaz]

A female with a Physics GRE score of 700 is more likely to be successful in college than a male with a GRE of 700. A black student with a GRE of 700 is much more likely to be successful than a white student with a GRE of 700. For whatever reason, women and black students tend look worse on paper than they actually are, so if you're looking for the students who are most likely to succeed in your program, it makes sense to loosen the standards for certain minorities.

 

[Monique]

Do you know the exact circumstances behind that post-doc thing? How do you know it's not a unique case outside of the norm? But indeed it is true that women are less loud and aggressive than males in general, so the probability of a woman to be less noticed in group-work settings would be higher I expect.

The norm is that the number of females decreases the higher you get up the academic ladder, that's clearly documented. Not only for historic reasons, but also when you follow the current generation. I'm not sure what you mean with the exact circumstances.

 

[Monique]

About picking your battles, I've managed to keep my mouth shut about this commercial, where the little girl gets a vacuum cleaner and the little boy a science set. The commercial was create with racial sensitivity in mind (no Black Pete, St Nicholas gets a face of soot). Whether it is gender neutral... I'll look the other way ;)

 

[b.shahvir]

[QUOTE="Gender research in Norway is a joke. They are the force behind highly politicized research on stuff like a person`s brain is a tabul rasa from birth, that parents should raise their children gender-neutral and so on. In addition to to silly research, they are responsible for stuff like Norway`s top technological schools are letting less qualified women enter before more qualified men because "it should be 50-50, otherwise the society is unfair".[/QUOTE]

I would have to agree with Nikitin. In Nordic countries there is 30% reservation for women in every sector due to political pressure...equal opportunity for both genders?? IMO, both genders would be equal when man becomes pregnant! Until that time we should acknowledge the difference & leave it to nature.

[QUOTE="How about a job application with the following oral rejection: "you can't apply, we're not considering females".[/QUOTE]

This is not entirely true. It would come as a surprise to many on this forum but I have read several job classifieds in our local newspapers stating the following;
"Required Female only Marketing Engineers/Managers for a reputed company..."
"Required Female only Production Engineer for a reputed company..."
"Required young, dynamic, Female candidates of not more than 25 years of age for the post of Admin assistant and Secretary to CEO of reputed company", etc.

Above are just few examples of such job adverts which I happen to encounter frequently. Unfortunately (or fortunately for women) nobody has objected to such adverts despite their sexist nature. I feel gender diversity & equality issues are only appealing till the time it retains political hue else it would never gain prominence in society, the same goes for minorities. I don't see any black scientist in the list, guess why nobody is objecting to that!

 

[jz92wjaz]

The CEO of said reputed company in the last one sounds like a predatory creep. I think women would be wise to be wary of any job description that asks for a female applicant, especially a young one.

 

[b.shahvir]

On face value to say men & women are equal is like saying electrons = protons, negative charge = positive charge, North pole = South pole, gravitational force = centrifugal force...

 

[b.shahvir]

The CEO of said reputed company in the last one sounds like a predatory creep. I pity any woman who has to work with him. I think women would be wise to be wary of any job description that asks for a female applicant, especially a young one.

True, but I wonder why you have refrained from commenting on the first two adverts!

 

[jz92wjaz]

I did comment on the first two adverts, because I think it is wise for people to avoid applying for a position that is unnecessarily restricted to a race or gender. Those things shouldn't matter. Those adverts are problematic and none of them should exist.

 

[b.shahvir]

I did comment on the first two adverts, because I think it is wise for people to avoid applying for a position that is unnecessarily restricted to a race or gender. Those things shouldn't matter. Those adverts are problematic and none of them should exist.

Wisely said indeed but from personal experience I have observed several companies bend the rules in the name of gender diversity to 'accommodate' females in traditionally male dominated jobs. For eg. female engineers are mostly restricted to report making/desk jobs or sales marketing jobs, etc. and not given odd shifts or made to operate heavy electrical equipment without supervision. (some HV switchgears are really tough to operate even for men and forces one to re-evaluate one's fitness levels)This may not be the case everywhere or in all industries but from personal observation. So mostly it's just a PR exercise to satisfy the HR dept.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Women just as welcome to STEM as men? I can tell you about the times I was denied based on prejudices, the sexist comments I receive. I rather not go there. Equal opportunity? No, definitely not.

Monique, I have a few questions to ask you about this:

(1) Had you known beforehand that you would experience the instances of prejudices and sexist comments while working in science, would you still have considered pursuing a science career?

(2) One could argue that women in almost every professional field have experienced prejudice, sexist comments, and other such issues of some sort, with the exception of the few female-dominated jobs/professions. Are STEM jobs worse in this respect compared to other professional fields?

(3) To your knowledge, would you say that certain STEM fields are more hostile to women in terms of potential career advancement or a hospitable work environment than others?

 

[Monique]

I did comment on the first two adverts, because I think it is wise for people to avoid applying for a position that is unnecessarily restricted to a race or gender. Those things shouldn't matter. Those adverts are problematic and none of them should exist.

I fully agree.

 

[Monique]

(1) Had you known beforehand that you would experience the instances of prejudices and sexist comments while working in science, would you still have considered pursuing a science career?

Yes, because it's all I ever wanted. Now having experienced it I am seriously beginning to doubt a future, but then I'm faced with a lot of politics and legal stuff that is completely distracting me from the science. I'm feeling like dropping out, which I never could have imagined.

(2) One could argue that women in almost every professional field have experienced prejudice, sexist comments, and other such issues of some sort, with the exception of the few female-dominated jobs/professions. Are STEM jobs worse in this respect compared to other professional fields?

I have no way of knowing. I did work in a garage repairing car bodyworks for a while, I can imagine that is a tough world to get accepted in. I do notice that at social events with many people in -for instance- the marketing field / advertisement present, that there is not a single person who wants to know what I do for a living. The question does gets asked, but only to males. I'm sure it is present everywhere.

(3) To your knowledge, would you say that certain STEM fields are more hostile to women in terms of potential career advancement or a hospitable work environment than others?

I have no way of knowing.

Those are good thought-provoking questions, thanks for asking.