Where is English the Official Language ?

[StevieTNZ]

?

Is this a language for the deaf, or a silent alternative to the Maori language?

Langauge for the deaf.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Sign_Language

 

[KrisOhn]

Eh? Unless something has changed since the time I was in school (graduated in 2000), I don't believe there was any requirement for French (or any other language).

I could see it being optional in a larger school (if you went to a larger school that is) where more courses are being offered, but my experience is consistent with Kevin's where it was mandatory between grades 1-9.

 

[zoobyshoe]

English is better than the official language in Turkey.
no one can find any job without speaking English.

Why on Earth is that?

 

[zoobyshoe]

Langauge for the deaf.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Sign_Language

The spoken language seems to have been made "official" to somehow try and prevent it from disappearing altogether, and the sign language seems to have been made official to highlight the rights of the deaf.

 

[epenguin]

BTW it's obvious to Brits that English is not the official language of the US. They can't spell it, they can't pronounce it, and even the grammar has "gotten" mangled

Nah, we just corrected the flaws and added enhancements.

I'm so happy we don't say "Aluminium". The revolution was worth that one improvement by itself.

We do take up a lot of useful bits of American. There might be some words or expressions that have completely supplanted our own. In the nature of this one would mostly not be aware of them, however I think they are not many. I think we are mostly aware of the imports. At the extreme they can be like deliberately using other foreign words and even a kind of affectation. I think we are somewhat aware of their strata, of what is real old American, what is folksy or MarkTwainese, what is more modern or up to date modish journalese etc. I certainly do use some for some shades of meaning or effect.

There has also been some increment in the last decade or two because forums etc. tend to have incorporated American spellchecks - this one for example.

 

[AlephZero]

Nah, we just corrected the flaws and added enhancements.

Not always. Some Americanisms are leftovers from 16th century British English. For example "gotten" is in the King James Bible (e.g. Genesis 4:1).

 

[256bits]

I could see it being optional in a larger school (if you went to a larger school that is) where more courses are being offered, but my experience is consistent with Kevin's where it was mandatory between grades 1-9.

Education falls under provincial jurisdiction so any blanket statement about the curiculum for the schools in Canada cannot be considered a valid statement. What is decided for British Columbia or Alberta, for example, as being the best for their students to develop intellectually, cannot be transferred over to another province such as Newfoundland and Labrador or Quebec, where other criteria may be considered of importance by the provincial government.

Official bilingualism and the designation of two official languages, is under the jurisdiction of the Canadian government and as such encompasses the whole country. To repeat myself, it covers that which is only under Canadian gouvernment jurisdiction. It was implemented so that a citizen could be offrered services in the language of choice be it either English or French. Education does not fall under Canadian jurisdiction.

 

[zoobyshoe]

We do take up a lot of useful bits of American. There might be some words or expressions that have completely supplanted our own. In the nature of this one would mostly not be aware of them, however I think they are not many. I think we are mostly aware of the imports. At the extreme they can be like deliberately using other foreign words and even a kind of affectation. I think we are somewhat aware of their strata, of what is real old American, what is folksy or MarkTwainese, what is more modern or up to date modish journalese etc. I certainly do use some for some shades of meaning or effect.

There has also been some increment in the last decade or two because forums etc. tend to have incorporated American spellchecks - this one for example.

Yes. Here in the US regional accents are constantly being ironed flatter and flatter by television. Each new batch of kids wants to talk like their TV heros, for one thing, and American TV personalities exhibit less and less diversity of accent with each new decade. Britishisms, Australianisms, and Canadianisms are occasionally entrained into the mix, adopted at first as spice, then, after a couple passes of the iron, the wrinkles of their foreign-ness are gone and kids repeat them without knowing they are supposed to sound affected for effect.

Obviously, we're approaching a limit of zero, and at some point, say in a thousand years, everyone in the world will speak the same language, all with the accent-less accent of The People's Democratic Republic of Northern South Jersey.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Yes. Here in the US regional accents are constantly being ironed flatter and flatter by television.

Even as a kid I realized that Southern Californian is the only true American English, dude. And it was easy to tell; even the people on the Evening News out of New York talked like Californians.

Presumably it was the Hollywood influence on national television that made it so. For example, Tom Brokaw started with NBC in Los Angeles, as did Connie Chung and many of the top anchors [with one of the three networks] of their day. Incidently, I met Connie Chung once when she was just a local girl.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Even as a kid I realized that Southern Californian is the only true American English, dude. And it was easy to tell; even the people on the Evening News out of New York talked like Californians.

Presumably it was the Hollywood influence on national television that made it so. For example, Tom Brokaw started with NBC in Los Angeles, as did Connie Chung and many of the top anchors [with one of the three networks] of their day. Incidently, I met Connie Chung once when she was just a local girl.

It's hard to trace the origin of the Standard American Accent. When I lived in Minnesota it was often claimed it originated there, and, indeed the average Minnesota native has no noticeable accent. (What's strange is that every Minnesotan can imitate the funny Minnesota accent that everyone ascribes to Minnesota, but no one actually authentically talks that way. At least, not in Minneapolis.)

If you watch any very old movie you notice they speak with this distinct and slightly peculiar accent that I have never been able to place. It's vaguely, just vaguely East Coast, without being NY, Bostonian, or otherwise specifically locatable to any East Coast city. I sometimes wonder if it wasn't an invention: "actor's diction", maybe. It got carried into early TV, sometimes cropping up on episodes of the original Twilight Zone, but it was pretty much gone by the 60's. Anyway, I never actually heard anyone speak with that accent in real life, despite it being ubiquitous in early American movies.

At some point that was overthrown and guys like Johnny Carson and Dan Rather were considered to be speaking the "standard" American accent. All newscasters and talk show hosts now speak in that general way. They all glom* in Southern California because that's where the TV and Film industry glommed, but that is not necessarily where the accent came from.

*I checked and the word "glom" is perfectly cromulent.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

It's hard to trace the origin of the Standard American Accent. When I lived in Minnesota it was often claimed it originated there, and, indeed the average Minnesota native has no noticeable accent. (What's strange is that every Minnesotan can imitate the funny Minnesota accent that everyone ascribes to Minnesota, but no one actually authentically talks that way. At least, not in Minneapolis.)

If you watch any very old movie you notice they speak with this distinct and slightly peculiar accent that I have never been able to place. It's vaguely, just vaguely East Coast, without being NY, Bostonian, or otherwise specifically locatable to any East Coast city. I sometimes wonder if it wasn't an invention: "actor's diction", maybe. It got carried into early TV, sometimes cropping up on episodes of the original Twilight Zone, but it was pretty much gone by the 60's. Anyway, I never actually heard anyone speak with that accent in real life, despite it being ubiquitous in early American movies.

At some point that was overthrown and guys like Johnny Carson and Dan Rather were considered to be speaking the "standard" American accent. All newscasters and talk show hosts now speak in that general way. They all glom* in Southern California because that's where the TV and Film industry glommed, but that is not necessarily where the accent came from.

*I checked and the word "glom" is perfectly cromulent.

I don't really see how one could separate the SC accent from the region. As much as the US is a melting pot for the world, California was a melting pot for the US. Just in my immediate neighborhood as a kid, we had a pretty global mix of Americans who were mostly 1st and 2nd generation California transplants, but for the most part we all spoke alike [except for recent immigrants, obviously].

I thought the notion of a Standard American Accent is contrived. It only seems to exist because of Hollywood. When I traveled around the US a lot, it was obvious that there are still vast differences in dialect. I actually hated working in some States in the South because I couldn't understand a damned thing half the people were saying. That is a real problem in my line of work.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I thought the notion of a Standard American Accent is contrived. It only seems to exist because of Hollywood.

That's what I'm saying. But Hollywood and TV aren't contrivedly disseminating a "standard" accent that originated in California. They are contrivedly disseminating an accent that originated in the Midwest.

Here we go:

Regional home of General American

It is commonly believed that General American English evolved as a result of an aggregation of rural and suburban Midwestern dialects, though the English of the Upper Midwest can deviate quite dramatically from what would be considered a "regular" American Accent.[citation needed] The local accent often gets more distinct the farther north one goes within the Midwest, and the more rural the area, with the Northern Midwest featuring its own dialect North Central American English.[citation needed] The fact that a Midwestern dialect became the basis of what is General American English is often attributed to the mass migration of Midwestern farmers to California and the Pacific Northwest from where it spread.


The area of the United States where the local accent is most similar to General American

The Telsur Project[3] (of William Labov and others) examines a number of phonetic properties by which regional accents of the U.S. may be identified. The area with Midwestern regional properties is indicated on the map: eastern Nebraska (including Omaha and Lincoln), southern and central Iowa (including Des Moines), and western Illinois (including Peoria and the Quad Cities but not the Chicago area).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_American

The accent of the average white person you encounter on the street in Minneapolis is indistinguishable from the average white person you encounter on the street in San Diego and LA. The movement of this accent was from the midwest to California, though, not the other way around.

TV and film, by disseminating that accent as "standard" are, in fact, slowly causing it to be so.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

You can take the girl out of Texas, but you can't make her stop referring to Spanish as "Mexican". Hehe.

The Spanish spoken in Mexico is considered a dialect of Spanish spoken in Spain. There are apparently even differences between the language as spoken by people in and from Mexico versus those who grew up with Spanish in the US.

 

[D H]

It's hard to trace the origin of the Standard American Accent. When I lived in Minnesota it was often claimed it originated there, and, indeed the average Minnesota native has no noticeable accent. (What's strange is that every Minnesotan can imitate the funny Minnesota accent that everyone ascribes to Minnesota, but no one actually authentically talks that way. At least, not in Minneapolis.)

I too was raised in Minnesota and I too heard that tripe. It's tripe. People from outside Minnesota think that the Minnesotans they run across have a marked accent. Maybe not as strong as that exemplified in the movie Fargo, but definitely there.

Think of it this way: You probably played duck, duck, gray duck as a kid rather than play duck, duck, goose (that's the name of the game in the other 49 states). The peculiarities of the way Minnesotans talk, think, and act are not apparent until you move away. They are immediately apparent to someone who moves in.

According to wikipedia (standard caveats appy), here is "where the local accent is most similar to General American:"

According this article at pbs.com, http://www.pbs.org/speak/seatosea/standardamerican/,

The "unaccented" variety that is sometimes called Standard American or Standard Speech is one taught by accent coaches. This form is actually an idealized dialect - meaning, it's not really spoken anywhere, but instead is acquired through professional training. Actors and professional communicators (including some from the Midlands!) often take classes in "accent reduction" to lose any regional or social sounds in their speech. It takes a lot of work.​

 

[cbetanco]

The Spanish spoken in Mexico is considered a dialect of Spanish spoken in Spain. There are apparently even differences between the language as spoken by people in and from Mexico versus those who grew up with Spanish in the US.

Its still referred to as Spanish, not Mexican.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Its still referred to as Spanish, not Mexican.

True, but it is also the reason why some refer to the dialect as "Mexican".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Spanish

 

[I like Serena]

There has also been some increment in the last decade or two because forums etc. tend to have incorporated American spellchecks - this one for example.

This forum gives me a British spell check.
I've been wondering why that is (I'm from the Netherlands).
It's certainly unexpected that someone in the UK would get an American spell check.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

This forum gives me a British spell check.
I've been wondering why that is (I'm from the Netherlands).
It's certainly unexpected that someone in the UK would get an American spell check.

I didn't even realize this forum had a spell check...

 

[I like Serena]

I didn't even realize this forum had a spell check...

Don't you get red wiggly lines under your words when you type a post?
When typing for instance color or colour?

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Don't you get red wiggly lines under your words when you type a post?
When typing for instance color or colour?

I do but only because Chrome has a spell check and I've set it to [strike]proper[/strike] UK English. Judging by some of the awful quality of posts that crop up from time to time it surprises me that there's a spell check.

 

[I like Serena]

I do but only because Chrome has a spell check and I've set it to [strike]proper[/strike] UK English. Judging by some of the awful quality of posts that crop up from time to time it surprises me that there's a spell check.

Right!

I have Firefox for Ubuntu.
It turns out that it came with default en-GB.
I just changed it to en-US and now the spell check is American.

 

[epenguin]

The idea all is flattening towards a world language is not necessarily true, there are counter-tendencies as well.

Maybe will come back on that but now I can't resist mentioning 'European English' the lingua franca that develops for communication between non-English speakers, many with a limited command of it.

The kind of expression in this language can be something like "I fakely have known actually he assists to a reunion". All the words are English but hardly any are used correctly - the above means "I have been vaguely informed that right now he is participating in a meeting".

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The idea all is flattening towards a world language is not necessarily true, there are counter-tendencies as well.

We can all just wear a universal translator made by Google.

 

[Monique]

The idea all is flattening towards a world language is not necessarily true, there are counter-tendencies as well.

Unfortunately, peanut butter. What I see is that English is more and more becoming a dominant language.

Maybe will come back on that but now I can't resist mentioning 'European English' the lingua franca that develops for communication between non-English speakers, many with a limited command of it.

Make that the cat wise! What I mainly see is that people make a lot of spelling mistakes in words, not necessarily switch the meaning of words.

The kind of expression in this language can be something like "I fakely have known actually he assists to a reunion". All the words are English but hardly any are used correctly - the above means "I have been vaguely informed that right now he is participating in a meeting".

That's a monkey-sandwich story, I've never seen that before

We do like to joke around with idioms though, that stands as a pole above water

 

[fuzzyfelt]

So pf does or doesn't have spell-check? I'd find it very useful!

 

[zoobyshoe]

I too was raised in Minnesota and I too heard that tripe. It's tripe. People from outside Minnesota think that the Minnesotans they run across have a marked accent. Maybe not as strong as that exemplified in the movie Fargo, but definitely there.

Think of it this way: You probably played duck, duck, gray duck as a kid rather than play duck, duck, goose (that's the name of the game in the other 49 states). The peculiarities of the way Minnesotans talk, think, and act are not apparent until you move away. They are immediately apparent to someone who moves in.

I wasn't born there. I just lived there eight years. Once in a while I'd notice a funny phrase, a funny vowel sound. If I mentioned it, they'd launch into their full blown imitation of a Minnesota accent, trying to be humorous. No one I met actually had that (Fargo) accent, though. In Mpls/St.Paul everyone on the street talks pretty much the way the cast of any TV show talks. Go down to the Rainbow Bar on Hennepin and Lake (if it's still there) and you might as well be listening to the cast of ER or the cast of NCIS for all anyone's accent stands out.

Yes, there'll be terminology surprises, like pop verses soda, but terminology is a consideration separate from accent. Now, I can't speak for Shakopee or Grand Marais, or any town outside the Twin Cities. If you're from a place like that, it could be you do have an accent.

People can judge for themselves. Who better epitomizes Minnesota than Garrison Keillor, and does he really, in real life, have an accent worth mentioning? :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FBBet3RLPI

According to wikipedia (standard caveats appy), here is "where the local accent is most similar to General American:"

Yes, this same map is in the article I linked to in my post to Ivan. The amoebic area described is just south of Minnesota, of course, and there's no reason it shouldn't have a pseudopod reaching up to include the twin cities.

According this article at pbs.com, http://www.pbs.org/speak/seatosea/standardamerican/,

The "unaccented" variety that is sometimes called Standard American or Standard Speech is one taught by accent coaches. This form is actually an idealized dialect - meaning, it's not really spoken anywhere, but instead is acquired through professional training. Actors and professional communicators (including some from the Midlands!) often take classes in "accent reduction" to lose any regional or social sounds in their speech. It takes a lot of work.​

This probably explains what I was saying to Ivan about the accent in old movies. I think what has happened over time is that the "ideal" accent being taught has merged with the Midwest/California accent, such that you actually can find millions of people who speak it in real life.

 

[zoobyshoe]

True, but it is also the reason why some refer to the dialect as "Mexican".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_Spanish

No, Texans calling it "Mexican" doesn't emerge from awareness of it as a dialect or any such academic insight. They call it "Mexican" just because it's what Mexicans are speaking. There are a lot of people here in San Diego who do the same thing. It drives Mexicans bonkers because they universally think of themselves as speaking Spanish, just as Americans think of themselves as speaking English, not "American".

 

[I like Serena]

We do like to joke around with idioms though, that stands as a pole above water

That's a truth like a cow. ;)

 

[D H]

In Mpls/St.Paul everyone on the street talks pretty much the way the cast of any TV show talks.

I can still hear it. The accent is admittedly reduced, but it is still there. There's nothing special there; accents tend to be attenuated in many large cities.

Now, I can't speak for Shakopee

Its a suburb of St. Paul, so they're going to speak more or less the same as people from St. Paul (which is a bit different from Minneapolis).

or Grand Marais

They don't have a Minnesota accent. They have a Ranger accent. Very distinct.

Ranger accent:





Minnesota accent, except he doesn't think he has one:

Who better epitomizes Minnesota than Garrison Keillor, and does he really, in real life, have an accent worth mentioning?

Well, yes, he does. It is diminished, but he is a radio personality after all. As far as who better epitomizes the Minnesota accent: Sarah Palin, of course!

Yes, this same map is in the article I linked to in my post to Ivan. The amoebic area described is just south of Minnesota, of course, and there's no reason it shouldn't have a pseudopod reaching up to include the twin cities.

Minnesotans speak a different dialect from the Midlands dialect. Minnesotan is a variant of what wikipedia calls North Central American English.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

That's a truth like a cow. ;)

That's a Robin Hood point but I fin' it aint wot was Damien Hirst meant by the bleedin' spread of engish.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

the mass migration of Midwestern farmers to California

The dustbowl, I presume? So bad farming practices led to the national standard language?

Had it not been for the farmers, I guess I would be calling you amigo?

And I agree with your comment regarding Spanish. Mexicans are the first to tell you that there is no such thing as "speaking Mexican".

 

[zoobyshoe]

The idea all is flattening towards a world language is not necessarily true, there are counter-tendencies as well.

Counter tendencies, meh, yes, but the flattening force will prevail, unless peoples are cut off from each other to develop in isolation. The current trend is toward unification. I'm sitting here talking about language with people from all over the world without leaving my house, for Cripe's sake*.

Maybe will come back on that but now I can't resist mentioning 'European English' the lingua franca that develops for communication between non-English speakers, many with a limited command of it.

The kind of expression in this language can be something like "I fakely have known actually he assists to a reunion". All the words are English but hardly any are used correctly - the above means "I have been vaguely informed that right now he is participating in a meeting".

Pidgin. Linguistics gives pidgin a one generation life. It will either die, or the next generation will have a creole worked out.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidgin

*A New Hampshirism created to avoid taking the Lord's name in vain, while still expressing the same degree of emphasis. (Actually its use may extend to Vermont and Maine as well, I'm not sure.)

 

[zoobyshoe]

The dustbowl, I presume? So bad farming practices led to the national standard language?

Had it not been for the farmers, I guess I would be calling you amigo?

No soy seguro que es fue "El Dustbowl". I think the mass migration actually started before that. The population of LA rose from 5000 in the 1870's to 100,000 around 1900. The underhanded water dealings that were worked into the film "Chinatown" actually seem to have taken place circa 1900 as well. (All that from the wiki article on the history of LA.) I do know that John Steinbeck wrote many stories about immigrants to a California Valley; people drawn there because the farming was good, though not particularly from the midwest.

http://www.edstephan.org/Steinbeck/past.html

At any rate, you're right that before this migration the predominant culture here was Spanish and Catholic. It was, in 1870, not that far removed from Mission Culture, i.e. the Mexicans managing the Indians. In the 1830's White people only came to San Diego to buy cow hides from the Mexican Ranchos round about. The bay was a good place to shelter a merchant ship, so the Mexican cattle ranchers brought their hides here from all around to sell them to the Gringo shippers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Years_Before_the_Mast

Now, in 2011, you don't run into cows much anymore in San Diego.

Point being, though, Southern California doesn't have a very long history of English speaking, compared to most other parts of the country. English wasn't established and already evolving here for centuries the way it was anywhere you pick on the East Coast and in the South.

 

[cbetanco]

Point being, though, Southern California doesn't have a very long history of English speaking, compared to most other parts of the country. English wasn't established and already evolving here for centuries the way it was anywhere you pick on the East Coast and in the South.

You can't live in the past

 

[zoobyshoe]

That's a monkey-sandwich story, I've never seen that before

We do like to joke around with idioms though, that stands as a pole above water

Unique children of a Monique mother.