Why Are Riots Escalating in London?

[drankin]

See http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/story/2011/06/17/calgary-vancouver-riot-athlete.html" from the recent Vancouver riots.

I imagine as people are identified in the London riots, we'll see that some of them are successful and were caught up in the mob-mentality.

That kid should get jail time and his scholarship revoked IMO. Social media is helping to identify these vandals.

 

[NeoDevin]

That kid should get jail time and his scholarship revoked IMO. Social media is helping to identify these vandals.

Agreed on the jail time, not so sure about the scholarship.

I only posted it here to show that even successful people will behave in this way.

 

[drankin]

Agreed on the jail time, not so sure about the scholarship.

I only posted it here to show that even successful people will behave in this way.

No question about it. Successful people are involved in criminal activity all the time. Their "successfulness" should not make their punishment any less IMO. I don't subsribe to "the riot made me do it" excuse.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

These events don't reflect the mentality of British youth. The participants come from poor neighborhoods and are mostly black, which also has an influence.

Almost overkill, since it is worldwide known that British skinheads and football hooligans only drink tea and play cricket, all day long ...

geez

 

[Ken Natton]

I only posted it here to show that even successful people will behave in this way.

I hear the point you are making NeoDevin, but again I would suggest that the circumstances are different. The Vancouver riot was borne of sporting defeat, and I suspect, at least partly fuelled by alcohol. Alcohol and drugs might have played a role in the riots in England but, when it all started, a few nights ago, some genuine – if unjustified and misguided – anger at the death of Mark Duggan lay at its root. What has happened since then, though, has nothing whatever to do with the death of Mark Duggan. Who knows, perhaps some people with more to lose have involved themselves in all that has followed, but I don’t think they are representative of the demographic involved. And further, such people are generally band-wagon jumpers. Someone else has to start the trouble and it has to take hold to a significant degree before such types find the courage to join in.

 

[Willowz]

Primitively disturbing.

 

[rhody]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/08/london-riots-blackberry-messenger-looting"

The maker of the BlackBerry, Research in Motion, said on Monday night that it would co-operate with a police investigation into claims that its popular BlackBerry Messenger service played a key role in organising the London riots.

Scotland Yard vowed to track down and arrest protesters who posted "really inflammatory, inaccurate" messages on the service, and the social networking websites Twitter and Facebook.

Patrick Spence, the managing director regional marketing at Research In Motion (RIM), confirmed that the BlackBerry manufacturer had contacted police to assist with the investigation.

Let's hope RIM carries through and makes good on their promise. Isn't London one of the most heavily video monitored places anywhere in the world as well ? If so, that can't hurt in tracking down the perpetraitors.

Rhody...

 

[CAC1001]

While there are some youth mobs forming to rob certain people and businesses, have we really seen any riots here in the U.S. yet? I mean I haven't seen anything here thus far that matches what's going on in the UK right now.

I don't know if I buy the poverty/unemployment/economic hardship argument, I mean we have far fewer social entitlements here in the U.S. in comparison to what they have in the UK, but we haven't seen riots like this. I wonder if any of these riots also have to do with a nanny state being too extensive...? Like turning too much of the society into adult adolescents...? Not trying to go off-topic, just wondering about the causes of all this.

 

[CAC1001]

Primitively disturbing.

How about those two women who were interviewed saying about how it's all the fault of "the rich" and "people with businesses." Since when are all people with businesses rich (and that's assuming even the truly rich are to blame in such an example)? Destroying all the businesses in a community, those are not rich people they're attacking.

 

[Evo]

While there are some youth mobs forming to rob certain people and businesses, have we really seen any riots here in the U.S. yet? I mean I haven't seen anything here thus far that matches what's going on in the UK right now.

I don't know if I buy the poverty/unemployment/economic hardship argument, I mean we have far fewer social entitlements here in the U.S. in comparison to what they have in the UK, but we haven't seen riots like this. I wonder if any of these riots also have to do with a nanny state being too extensive...? Like turning too much of the society into adult adolescents...? Not trying to go off-topic, just wondering about the causes of all this.

Have you read the fist page of this thread and the linked articles?

 

[CAC1001]

Have you read the fist page of this thread and the linked articles?

Yes...

 

[Evo]

Yes...

Here you go.

It's becoming a widespread problem. Philly now has problems too.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-14466369

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2011/08/09/for_flash_mobsters_crowd_size_a_tempting_cover/?rss_id=Boston.com+--+Latest+news

 

[CAC1001]

Here you go.

Yes I read those, but that was part of what I was writing about, we are seeing flash mobs occurring here in the U.S. in certain areas, but I mean we aren't seeing Philadelphia or Cleveland lit up on fire with police cars being torched, buildings set on fire, masses of small businesses destroyed, and so forth. No major U.S. cities with 14,000 police on the streets. So I mean I wouldn't say the rioting as we've seen in the UK and has come to the U.S. yet.

 

[Evo]

Yes I read those, but that was part of what I was writing about, we are seeing flash mobs occurring here in the U.S. in certain areas, but I mean we aren't seeing Philadelphia or Cleveland lit up on fire with police cars being torched, buildings set on fire, masses of small businesses destroyed, and so forth. No major U.S. cities with 14,000 police on the streets. So I mean I wouldn't say the rioting as we've seen in the UK and has come to the U.S. yet.

And chicago.

No, our police had inercepted a number of mob tweets and stopped them.

So maybe we are a bit more savvy, or lucky.

 

[Astronuc]

competing arguments used to explain the riots
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14483149

 

[jtbell]

A surprising number of the rioters appearing in court have turned out not to be the "unemployed yobs" that people have been focusing on:

Shock over 'respectable' lives behind masks of UK rioters (cnn.com)

 

[mheslep]

Seems to me that when some in the political leadership sowed the unrest over the University subsidies some months ago, i.e. when they tacitly or even actively encouraged those riots, so now have they reaped with this common criminal behavior.

 

[JesseC]

A surprising number of the rioters appearing in court have turned out not to be the "unemployed yobs" that people have been focusing on:

Shock over 'respectable' lives behind masks of UK rioters (cnn.com)

If you're interested in real data see this at the guardian.

I didn't do an accurate count, but looking at the spreadsheet I estimate at about 75% of those taken before court were unemployed or have no stated occupation. I am of course assuming that the 124 or so data points are a reliable measure of the whole.

So while its interesting to note that a significant minority of people were employed, preliminary data indicate that the majority don't seem to be. Hardly surprising...

 

[mheslep]

Why is not completely surprising that even a 1/4 of those arrested in mob violence for looting and/or arson were employed or even well off? Maybe that watched Clockwork Orange to many times?

 

[JesseC]

Why is not completely surprising that even a 1/4 of those arrested in mob violence for looting and/or arson were employed or even well off? Maybe that watched Clockwork Orange to many times?

Maybe they did, maybe they got caught up in the excitement... not like having a job means you're not going to be violent and disorderly. I re-read the list... looks like half of those listed as employed are actually students, the rest mostly in low paid jobs like: lifeguard, retail assistant, fork lift truck driver etc. etc.

The occasional mid-pay job like electrician, clerk, estate agent... that is somewhat surprising I agree.

Though hardly occupations to put you in Forbes 500.

Statistics dictates that in a crowd of thousands, you're definitely going to find some odd-balls that don't fit... I'm sure the Sun and other tabloids love to make a bit deal out of it, but its hardly representative.

 

[FeDeX_LaTeX]

It's 22:30 and my dad just came home from work and he said there was a Caucasian teenager wearing a hoodie just sitting outside on our doorstep, saying he was "waiting for somebody". My dad told him that if he didn't go away he'd call the police, and he did go away, but I still think there's a chance he'll come back in the middle of the night and try to break a window or something. In the hallway there's a bike and a motorbike and the roof is made of lead which people have tried to steal by breaking bits of it off during the night-time. It's scary to think that this person is about my age and was sitting literally 5 metres away from me outside my window, possibly looking at me, and I didn't notice.

Just had a quick check now and he isn't there but it's only been about 45 minutes so he could be back at any time. I've heard reports on the internet of innocent people's homes being broken into at night and having their stuff looted. Now it's getting really close to home and I'm admittedly scared.

Hoping this will be over soon... I'm sleeping with a baseball bat beside my bed tonight.

Also, I heard that one of the rioters is an undergraduate at the university of Exeter, who got 9A*s and 4As at GCSE and has 4 A-levels all at grade A, and another is the daughter of a millionaire? Weird...

EDIT: 23:13, just heard distant sawing outside my window. Manual saw, sounded like sawing through metal. Called my dad to see if he could see anything or if there was any trouble, couldn't see anything/the sawing stopped. Anybody sawing around my area at this time or night can't be good. What worries me is that it was quiet enough for me to be able to sleep through it...

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Amazon has removed several police-style telescopic truncheons from sale on its site as soaring sales of truncheons, baseball bats and other items that could be used as weapons sparked fears of vigilantism in the wake of widespread rioting.

Sales of one type of aluminium truncheon rose 50,000% within 24 hours, entering the top-10 bestselling items in the sports category. Before they were de-listed, two different "police-style" truncheons had seen sales increase more than 400-fold overnight, though from a low base.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/11/uk-riots-amazon-withdraws-truncheons

 

[Dotini]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...s-Lidl-water-thief-jailed-for-six-months.html

The mournful story of an electrical engineering student, no previous record, sentenced to 6 months in prison for nicking some water bottles.

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

 

[Evo]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...s-Lidl-water-thief-jailed-for-six-months.html

The mournful story of an electrical engineering student, no previous record, sentenced to 6 months in prison for nicking some water bottles.

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

How can the UK pull these people in and hand out instant jail sentences? WTH? I've been reading about this kangaroo court the last 2 days and I am astonished.

 

[I like Serena]

How can the UK pull these people in and hand out instant jail sentences? WTH?

I believe there are too many to do it any other way and they are applying zero-tolerance.

 

[Evo]

I believe there are too many to do it any other way and they are applying zero-tolerance.

I don't condone looting, the guy obviously failed to use common sense, but do the people in the UK have no right to a "fair" trial?

Shoplifting the water from an open store would have resulted in a warning. I'm all for nailing numbskulls, but this is even more than I can approve of.

 

[I like Serena]

I don't condone looting, the guy obviously failed to use common sense, but do the people in the UK have no right to a "fair" trial?

Maybe later, when the immediate crisis has been dealt with, and an example has been set.

 

[Hurkyl]

I've been reading about this kangaroo court

do the people in the UK have no right to a "fair" trial?

Eh? Did I miss something?

 

[Evo]

Eh? Did I miss something?

Yeah, like how many hours between arrest and sentenced to 6 months in jail for a first offense of shoplifting. If all they have on the guy is a case of water, nothing that ties him to the riots or the damage or the violence, I think allowing him out on bail would have been appropriate.

 

[I like Serena]

Shoplifting the water from an open store would have resulted in a warning. I'm all for nailing numbskulls, but this is even more than I can approve of.

Yeah, like how many hours between arrest and sentenced to 6 months in jail for a first offense of shoplifting.

It's not for shoplifting, it's for "looting".
Quite a different behaviour than the old lady who effectively countered rioting and looting.
We need more people like her who care.
Six months seems excessive though.

 

[ThomasT]

I've been through a few riots in my lifetime. Cincinnati in 1967 and 1968, and Miami in 1980. These were huge riots, fueled mostly by the random energy of young people, and involving mostly African Americans.
I think that it can be at least partly (maybe mostly?) attributed to youthful negative exuberance and opportunism.
It shouldn't be too surprising that communities of kids who grow up in a street culture of violence riot every now and then.
I don't think that there are any particular underlying political reasons for such outbursts.
But there's an extreme undercurrent of racial (coupled with economic?) tension in the US (maybe most everywhere that there are mixed ethnic/racial populations?).
Whether something akin to this is a primary reason for the UK riots is an open question afaik.
Certainly the problem is compounded by the ability to organize via social media, but that's not the root cause.

Just some thoughts on this regrettable recent turn of events from an old guy (me) who's experienced a good bit of this sort of thing first hand.

 

[Hurkyl]

Yeah, like how many hours between arrest

A speedy trial doesn't make it a sham.

and sentenced to 6 months in jail for a first offense of shoplifting.

I find it hard to judge. The normal rationale I see people give for being lenient towards crimes of opportunity really doesn't apply to the situation in London.

I think allowing him out on bail would have been appropriate.

Bail is for suspects that are being held in jail while awaiting trial, and has nothing to do with criminals that have been convicted and sentenced. Did you mean that you think he should have merely been fined rather than jailed?

 

[Evo]

A speedy trial doesn't make it a sham.

It does when emotions are high and there is pressure on to be tough, as it is right now according to the articles.

Bail is for suspects that are being held in jail while awaiting trial, and has nothing to do with criminals that have been convicted and sentenced. Did you mean that you think he should have merely been fined rather than jailed?

In the US, if you are arrested, you can be immediately released pending your court date. You can get bail *before* your trial and before sentencing (if convicted), it's your promise that you will appear at your appointed court date.

A person's first thought upon landing in jail is often how to get out -- and fast. The usual way to do this is to "post bail".

Bail is cash, a bond, or property that an arrested person gives to a court to ensure that he or she will appear in court when ordered to do so. If the defendant doesn't show up, the court keeps the bail and issues a warrant for the defendant's arrest.

How Bail Is Set

Judges are responsible for setting bail. Because many people want to get out of jail immediately (instead of waiting for a day or longer to see a judge), most jails have standard bail schedules that specify bail amounts for common crimes. An arrested person can often get out of jail quickly by paying the amount set forth in the stationhouse bail schedule.

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/bail-getting-out-of-jail-30225.html

He was arrested and in his case bail should have been offered so that he would have time to prepare a defense. Just my opinion, if he really was a fine, upstanding student that made a stupid mistake. But I'm the kind of person that would never steal, ever. I wouldn't even take a gift if I knew it had been stolen.

I understand that they want to crush what happened, but I think this particular sentence was too harsh, the sentences being handed down aren't uniform.

Fears of rough justice as courts rush to process riot arrestsOf more than 1,600 people arrested in connection with the riots and looting, more than 500 have already appeared in court.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/11/riots-arrests-courts-prisons-justice

 

[Hurkyl]

You can get bail *before* your trial and before sentencing (if convicted), it's your promise that you will appear at your appointed court date.

That was my point -- it doesn't make sense to suggest letting someone out on bail *after* they have been tried and sentenced.

He was arrested and in his case bail should have been offered so that he would have time to prepare a defense.

But from your elaboration I see that's not what you meant. You meant that the trial should have been postponed

 

[Evo]

But from your elaboration I see that's not what you meant. You meant that the trial should have been postponed

That's exactly what I meant, he should have been offered bail and released, not immediately sentenced.