Why Are Riots Escalating in London?

[Hurkyl]

Are you suggesting that Peter Oborne was soapboxing on some unrelated topic? Because if you were I am not sure that is fair.

Yes, that is exactly my intent.

At best, he was taking advantage of the current crisis to provide a segue into the topic he really wanted to talk about.

At worst, he is using the technique of juxtaposition to try and get you to mentally associate his topic of interest with the horrors of the current crisis.

That seems to me to be a valid point to have raised.

I said nothing about the point that was raised. My criticism is entirely upon the method he uses to get you to listen and to believe.

 

[arildno]

I hardly consider myself to be leftist, I also doubt that a classification like that makes sense. You did change the topic in my perception since you want to blame 'leftists,' whoever they are.

I pointed out that you oversimplified the riots beyond what is a credible analysis. As far as we know, this was a heterogenous group of mostly young social lower class, but also working people and even the daughter of a millionaire.

What is interesting about these riots is that mostly, in cases of social unrest, people riot against the government, whereas here people turned to looting shops. Criminality, recreational violence, gangculture, materialism, the financial crisis, social tension, lack of moral guidance - take your pick. But to reduce it to 'people who aren't grateful for hand-outs' -a materialist argument- fed by a leftist conspiracy? Horsedung.

actually, leftists are the materialist ones, blathering on and on about "entitlements" to fair shares. That this erodes the sense of civic responsibility in other layers than the underclass ought to be quite understandable.

 

[MarcoD]

actually, leftists are the materialist ones, blathering on and on about "entitlements" to fair shares. That this erodes the sense of civic responsibility in other layers than the underclass ought to be quite understandable.

Man, how many fallacies can one group into two sentences?

There is no homogenous group of 'leftists.' Only people with opinions. The left/right divide is mostly arbitrary, and people tend to have beliefs which fall on both sides.

There is a group of people who believe in social, or welfare, states. They see that as a moral obligation, some on the 'far right' even believe so.

Blathering is not the same as voicing an opinion.

There is no reason to assume that people's civic responsibility is eroded by others voicing an opinion.

You changed the topic again with a new argument: now it's not the lower class which lacks morality, but the upper class, and you still blame that on 'leftists'. A qualification which I find can only serve one purpose: to stop all meaningful debate and a deeper understanding of problems at hand.

Here, I give to you that part of the reason society is disintegrating is that it has become near impossible to have any meaningful discussion on how to fix problems since everyone (politicians) has only become interested in stating the most meaningless platitudes.

 

[mheslep]

I've seen no claims in thread that leftists are homogeneous. Leftists need only espouse leftist policies to earn the name, whatever else they may think or do.

 

[arildno]

Man, how many fallacies can one group into two sentences?

There is no homogenous group of 'leftists.' Only people with opinions. The left/right divide is mostly arbitrary, and people tend to have beliefs which fall on both sides.

There is a group of people who believe in social, or welfare, states. They see that as a moral obligation, some on the 'far right' even believe so.

Blathering is not the same as voicing an opinion.

There is no reason to assume that people's civic responsibility is eroded by others voicing an opinion.

You changed the topic again with a new argument: now it's not the lower class which lacks morality, but the upper class, and you still blame that on 'leftists'. A qualification which I find can only serve one purpose: to stop all meaningful debate and a deeper understanding of problems at hand.

Here, I give to you that part of the reason society is disintegrating is that it has become near impossible to have any meaningful discussion on how to fix problems since everyone (politicians) has only become interested in stating the most meaningless platitudes.

Yes, I fully understand that according to your view, it is the closing of youth clubs that propelled these desperate unhappy youths into an orgy of violence&robbery.

And again, it is YOU who constantly bring up new facets (in this case emphasizing the heterogeneity of the offenders, a fact I never have contested), so then again, I have to address that point.
That is NOT to "change" the topic in any ilegitimate manner, it is to follow YOR train of thought, however disjointed and silly it may seem.Furthermore, constant drivel spouted forth from social workers, pseudo-academics, politicians DO have effect on peoples' outlook on the world.

Just as a barrage of solid arguments can affect peoples' outlook.
So, yes, blathering can perfectly well shape other peoples' outlook, as long as there is a sufficient amount of blather tending in one direction.

 

[arildno]

I've seen no claims in thread that leftists are homogeneous. Leftists need only espouse leftist policies to earn the name, whatever else they may think or do.

MarcoD is also the only one who asserts that I claim there is some sort of "grand conspiracy".
I have claimed no such thing, nor is anything I've written implying such things, either.
His mendacity is his defining human characteristic, and it becomes wearisome even to respond to this person.

 

[vertices]

actually, leftists are the materialist ones, blathering on and on about "entitlements" to fair shares.

Are you talking about social welfare?

That this erodes the sense of civic responsibility in other layers than the underclass ought to be quite understandable.

where do you think people get this "sense of civic responsibility" from? And what stops people from rioting and looting in the first place - I mean, human beings are evolutionarily hunter gatherers. We take stuff.

The police don't keep people in check (you could go to a random building and smash up the place right now). People keep themselves in check. Civic responsibility comes from the idea that we look after others and expect others to look after us. In other words, we all subconsciously sign a "social contract" to play by the rules.

In the UK, this Rosseauian social contract is coming undone - people are clearly NOT being looked after and they no longer believe they have a stake in society. The underlying reasons are connected to deprivation, social exclusion and inequality of opportunity...

 

[mheslep]

Jean-Jacques Rousseau was a slime that manipulated and exploited those personally connected to him, casting them aside when he had nothing more to gain. Thus his personal life and contrasting public philosophy of the "social contract" make a good metaphor for the modern welfare state he fathered in a sense (in addition to his abandoned children): true day to day concern and responsibility for family and neighbors replaced by a phony, posing political stance lived out through the abstraction of the state.

 

[ThomasT]

Getting back to the topic, and in the interest of doing some reasonable and perhaps enlighted speculation on the causes of the London rioting, I wonder what the riots in London might have in common (if anything) with some of the riots in the US that I've had first hand experience with (refer to post #101).

I don't think, because of the apparently random looting, burning, destruction and violence, that it's primarily politically or economically motivated (I think that Darcus Howe is wrong in calling this an 'insurrection'), and from what I've seen on videos and read, the vast majority of rioters are young people.

So one might speculate that the primary cause is simply a venting of youthful energy. But why so violent? Well, if the majority of rioters are young people who have grown up in communities of relatively poor people where, among young people, 'gangsta' behavior is glorified, then it seems to fit.

Young people in general tend to be disciples of the church of what's happenin' now. Their life experience is limited, they're not particularly wise, and they're somewhat naturally rebellious (without any particularly well considered causes). So when word goes out that their community is hosting a riot tonight and they're invited, then is it surprising that a significant number of them choose to participate?

So, what I'm proposing is that the cause of the London riots is an inevitable consequence of modern urban demographics and youthful negative exuberance and opportunism. That is, given how urban societies are structured we should expect these sorts of riots from time to time -- especially if it's also assumed that there are ever present undercurrents of racial and ethnic tensions.

To quell these sorts of riots police have to be capable of anticipating them, and then simply flooding affected areas with extremely large numbers of uniformed personel on short notice.

The English authorities either didn't understand the possible and imminent dynamics of their communities, or they underestimated the consequences. Either way, they failed in their duty. Most of the destruction that happened didn't have to happen. It was simply, via ignorance or miscalculation, allowed to happen.

This isn't to say that anyone (other than the actual rioters of course) should be blamed for the London riots. We all function wrt some sort of status quo. But hopefully the English authorities will learn from this and thus take steps to minimize the probability that this sort of extensive senseless damage doesn't happen again.

 

[mheslep]

Apparently the idea that https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3448780&postcount=134" proposed (repeated?) has caught on:

A campaign to stop looters from claiming benefits has had more than 100,000 signatures and has become the first of its kind to be considered for a House of Commons debate.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8696778/Thousands-sign-no-benefits-for-rioters-petition.html

 

[mheslep]

... an inevitable consequence of modern urban demographics

What are these demographics and what about them in particular are relevant to the riots in Britain?

...To quell these sorts of riots police have to be capable of anticipating them, and then simply flooding affected areas with extremely large numbers of uniformed personel on short notice.

What do you propose the police would be instructed to do, differently from what they've done this time?

 

[ThomasT]

Apparently the idea that https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3448780&postcount=134" proposed (repeated?) has caught on:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8696778/Thousands-sign-no-benefits-for-rioters-petition.html

This seems entirely justified. If you've been convicted of active participation in a destructive riot, or any felony for that matter, then you don't get any state benefits ... ever.

I watched Condell's tirade and must say that I agree with some of his points. I don't agree that there aren't enough police. For most all of the time and in most situations there are plenty of police. And Britain has an army that it can call upon in riot situations -- which might be more appropriate than expecting police to be able to handle it.

 

[ThomasT]

What are these demographics and what about them in particular are relevant to the riots in Britain?

If you read my post(s) it should be clear enough. It's my understanding that the riots are happening in mostly (exclusively?) poorer neighborhoods (which was the case wrt the US riots that I experienced) where the drug culture and the 'gangsta' mentality and the glorification of violence tend to be predominant attitudes amoung the young people who populate those neighborhoods.

What do you propose the police would be instructed to do, differently from what they've done this time?

What they did this time seemed to be inadequate to prevent or quell the destruction. I would think that after the first set of rioting that enough manpower would be brought into prevent further rioting. Maybe they should have used the army?

I'm just wondering how a gang of youths can terrorize a community without there being a sufficient police presence there to stop them within minutes.

 

[Kracatoan]

For me, the blame lies in the breakdown of the British Education system under labour this last decade. Teachers have lost the right to discipline unruly behaviour - thus eradicating the respect for authority - and non-academic children have been forced to follow an academic style education which is inappropriate to their strengths and weaknesses.

Added to that there are the frankly terrifying levels of illiteracy in Britain (almost one in five primary school leavers) the inability to read or write severs countless links to present society and cuts one off from the distilled thoughts and morals of the human race which can be found in reading books.

The inability to read and write makes one very unemployable and cannot be ignored as a cause of Britain's social sickness.

 

[arildno]

I agree that the laissez-faire mentality that has infected not just UK schools, but all across the western world is extremely destructive.

We also know precisely WHICH political groupings that have railed against the eevil authority of teachers, how the "individual" pupil should be the focus (rather than that all of them should pay attention to..the teacher), how bullies are actively encouraged to harden their ways by commiseration, and making the TEACHER responsible for the pupil's behaviour (for not making his class "interesting" enough) and so on.

and yes, it is solely the leftists who bear the blame for the utterly sich, knowledge-hostile environment the schools have turned into.

 

[arildno]

In the UK, this Rosseauian social contract is coming undone - people are clearly NOT being looked after and they no longer believe they have a stake in society. The underlying reasons are connected to deprivation, social exclusion and inequality of opportunity...

Nonsense.

Being "deprived" of the most expensive television set is not a breach of fundamental human rights.
Being "socially excluded" from, say, the executive board of a big chemical company is not a breach of fundamental human rights.
Having "unequal opportunity" at becoming a professor of maths because you can't even add or subtract properly is not a breach of fundamental human rights.

 

[billiards]

I agree that the laissez-faire mentality that has infected not just UK schools, but all across the western world is extremely destructive.

We also know precisely WHICH political groupings that have railed against the eevil authority of teachers, how the "individual" pupil should be the focus (rather than that all of them should pay attention to..the teacher), how bullies are actively encouraged to harden their ways by commiseration, and making the TEACHER responsible for the pupil's behaviour (for not making his class "interesting" enough) and so on.

and yes, it is solely the leftists who bear the blame for the utterly sich, knowledge-hostile environment the schools have turned into.

Rubbish. You're out of touch with reality. A blind swipe at "leftists".

 

[Kracatoan]

Rubbish. You're out of touch with reality. A blind swipe at "leftists".

A blind swipe perhaps, but maybe not entirely untrue, as the recent decline in teacher authority in Britain certainly has a correlation with the Labour Party being in power, a problem the current government wish to correct.

That said, the blame does not lie entirely with Labour, instead I would say it is more of a problem of society as a whole opposing strict school discipline as cruel or somesuch nonsense. When the rights of the student are placed above the rights of the teacher, it is clear something is wrong.

 

[arildno]

Rubbish. You're out of touch with reality. A blind swipe at "leftists".

Actually, I DO know quite a lot of the perversions of modern pedagogics, that has as its main axiom reality denial.

 

[mheslep]

If you read my post(s) it should be clear enough. It's my understanding that the riots are happening in mostly (exclusively?) poorer neighborhoods

No, they are not, the riots were largely in upscale areas at least in London, hence my query...[/QUOTE]

 

[Evo]

This thread is beyond hope.