Why does the U.S. continue to provide military aid to Israel?

[tiny-tim]

This language makes me a bit uncomfortable. It is Holocaust tinged … Israel's increasingly outrageous actions … Israeli intransigence.

Your language makes me uncomfortable …

you raise the Holocaust when nobody else has mentioned it, and you criticize Israel as being outrageous and intransigent without giving any reasons, as if it was obvious to anyone of your intelligence.

The fact of the matter it is not is any nation's interest …

This is a scientific forum …

do you actually understand the difference between fact and opinion?

 

[vertices]

tiny-tim - I was thinking about Israel's actions in Gaza last year which left hundreds of children dead, and the fact it forged UK passports in order to carry out an extra judicial assassination in a sovereign nation (you can't make this up!). And more recently ofcourse, this flotilla incident, technically an act of piracy.

Evo - Well, I'm guessing you're referring to Iran - specifically Mr Ahmadinjad's comment that he wishes to see "Israel wiped off the map"? As much as I hate the guy (and the wacky views he espouses), this comment was infact a mistranslation.

An Iranian friend was explaining that Farsi is a poetic metaphor-ridden language (in contrast to English which is clinically precise). These things happen, and should not be blown out of context for political reasons.

 

[tiny-tim]

tiny-tim - I was thinking about Israel's actions …

Having objected to your language, you now make it worse by going completely off-topic, with remarks both highly biased and highly questionable.

Evo - Well, I'm guessing you're referring to Iran - specifically Mr Ahmadinjad's comment that he wishes to see "Israel wiped off the map"?

Since Evo clearly used a different phrase, I expect she wasn't referring to Iran. Again, you're raising off-topic material for no apparent reason (and accurate Farsi translate is obviously possible … you can find accurate English translations of Ahmadinejad's words fairly quickly on a google search, if you can be bothered).

 

[zomgwtf]

tiny-tim - I was thinking about Israel's actions in Gaza last year which left hundreds of children dead, and the fact it forged UK passports in order to carry out an extra judicial assassination in a sovereign nation (you can't make this up!). And more recently ofcourse, this flotilla incident, technically an act of piracy.

Evo - Well, I'm guessing you're referring to Iran - specifically Mr Ahmadinjad's comment that he wishes to see "Israel wiped off the map"? As much as I hate the guy (and the wacky views he espouses), this comment was infact a mistranslation.

An Iranian friend was explaining that Farsi is a poetic metaphor-ridden language (in contrast to English which is clinically precise). These things happen, and should not be blown out of context for political reasons.

I would much rather you didn't drag this topic further off course . I was actually interested in the answers, considering many people on these forums are American. I know their answers and opinions have been given but I'd still rather this topic not be locked in case something else comes up or something.

 

[vertices]

I would much rather you didn't drag this topic further off course

That wasn't my intention. tiny-tim pointed out that I had criticised Israel "without giving any reasons". I gave my reasons in couple of lines. Let's move on.

tiny-tim:

I don't want to prejudge Evo's response, but I am pretty certain that no other state in the Middle East (you guys call it the "Near East"?) has said anything to that effect, other than Iran. As for the mistranslation: well, it is an illustration of the power of media- repeat something often enough, it becomes the "truth". "Wiping of the map" is more headline grabbing than "vanish from the page of time".

ON TOPIC: I don't get why the US gives so much aid to a relatively well-off, 1st world country anyway. It shouldn't be called aid. There are 30,000 children dying per day of starvation: as a Brit I have no right to berate the US (as my government's record is pretty bad on this front), but even in terms of cold hard utilitarian calculus, the combined $4billion Israel and Egypt get, could do so much more good elsewhere.

 

[Evo]

I don't want to prejudge Evo's response, but I am pretty certain that no other state in the Middle East (you guys call it the "Near East"?) has said anything to that effect, other than Iran. As for the mistranslation: well, it is an illustration of the power of media- repeat something often enough, it becomes the "truth". "Wiping of the map" is more headline grabbing than "vanish from the page of time".

Hamas has made similar statements, was just reading one from one of their leaders the other day, I don't remember which article it was in.

 

[vertices]

Hamas has made similar statements, was just reading one from one of their leaders the other day, I don't remember which article it was in.

Yes but Hamas isn't a state, it's an organisation. As such, it is comprised of a bunch of people (yes, some of them are terrorists) who tend to spew great deal of rhetoric that is often-times beneath contempt. It doesn't have press offices to vet the comments people make.

 

[estro]

...
but it would be absurd to suggest that they wish to destroy Israel.

So you say that the 7 wars we had to fight (many, for our existence) are not because they want to destroy us but a gesture of love?

I think your reasoning is blocked by hatred, the same hatred flows and floods in our wild neighbors veins .
Our wild neighbors will never rest in fact, until this hatred will be kicked out of them and will be replaced by stunning fear. But I believe we are too peace loving for doing that...

*sorry for being too emotional, these kind of "opinions" make me boil.

 

[Cyrus]

Our wild neighbors will never rest in fact, until this hatred will be kicked out of them and will be replaced by stunning fear. But I believe we are too peace loving for doing that...

Guess what estro, the more you call them your 'wild neighbors' the more they won't like you either. Overall, I think this statement is a bit absurd on many levels.

 

[estro]

Guess what estro, the more you call them your 'wild neighbors' the more they won't like you either. Overall, I think this statement is a bit absurd on many levels.

Your talking based on air, my talking based on blood.
You opinions based on media (cartoon network?), my based on blood.

 

[Cyrus]

Your talking based on air, my talking based on blood.

<shrug> Okayyyyy??...

 

[estro]

All things seem very simple, when they are far away...

 

[Cyrus]

All things seem very simple, when they are far away...

<shrug> Okayyy...? When did I say anything was simple?

 

[estro]

<shrug> Okayyy...?

I'm happy we reached agreement =)

 

[Cyrus]

I'm happy we reached agreement =)

My point is this: I understand you don't love the countries around you; however, blind hatred is only going to lead you, and your country, into years of more aggression. Consider what I just said, and your reply a few posts back about wild dogs and your proposed 'solution' to this problem.

 

[estro]

My point is this: I understand you don't love the countries around you; however, blind hatred is only going to lead you, and your country, into years of more aggression. Consider what I just said, and your reply a few posts back about wild dogs and your proposed 'solution' to this problem.

1. I never said "dogs".
2. Israeli policy (which I fully support) has nothing to do with hatred.
3. I would love to love them (heh), the problem they will never love me back.

 

[Char. Limit]

I thought of something else today... Israel won every territory it has in wars that it didn't start. Is this not correct? It won the West Bank, the Golan Heights, and the Gaza Strip in wars that Israel, quite frankly, did not instigate. Now, my facts may be wrong on the war in 1967 (tbh I can't remember if Israel started the war or not), but I know the 1948 war was defensive. And if you win territory in a war you didn't start... I say let them keep it. To the victor go the spoils of the enemy.

 

[Cyrus]

1. I never said "dogs".
2. Israeli policy (which I fully support) has nothing to do with hatred.
3. I would love to love them (heh), the problem they will never love me back.

Sorry, I meant to say "wild neighbors." Wild dogs is an american saying, and I accidentally mixed the two up when I replied to your post.

To your second item, your reply was just that - yours. Not Israeli policy, as far as I am aware.

To your third point, don't underestimate other people. Not all of them are the same.

 

[estro]

I thought of something else today... Israel won every territory it has in wars that it didn't start. Is this not correct? It won the West Bank, the Golan Heights, and the Gaza Strip in wars that Israel, quite frankly, did not instigate. Now, my facts may be wrong on the war in 1967 (tbh I can't remember if Israel started the war or not), but I know the 1948 war was defensive. And if you win territory in a war you didn't start... I say let them keep it. To the victor go the spoils of the enemy.

The 1967 war started after Israeli intelligence revealed Egypt have plan to attack, in this war we conquered the Sinai. (returned by peace treaty)

 

[tiny-tim]

… blind hatred is only going to lead you, and your country, into years of more aggression. Consider what I just said, and your reply a few posts back about wild dogs and your proposed 'solution' to this problem.

Who said anything about hatred, blind or otherwise? …

you made that up! ​

Who said anything about dogs? …

you made that up! ​

And estro made it clear that, although he said other countries hate Israel, Israel didn't hate them and was too peace-loving to stop the hatred (by "stunning fear").

"blind" well describes your reading of estro's post ​

 

[estro]

Sorry, I meant to say "wild neighbors." Wild dogs is an american saying, and I accidentally mixed the two up when I replied to your post.

To your second item, your reply was just that - yours. Not Israeli policy, as far as I am aware.

To your third point, don't underestimate other people. Not all of them are the same.

I don't make policies and don't want to, I voted for PM B. Netanyahu whom I trust to deal with policies.

I never talked about all people, I talked about the majority.

 

[Cyrus]

Who said anything about hatred, blind or otherwise? …

you made that up! ​

"Our wild neighbors will never rest in fact, until this hatred will be kicked out of them and will be replaced by stunning fear."

That would fall under the definition of blind hated, in my opinion. This statement doesn't make sense at any level to be taken seriously.

Who said anything about dogs? …

you made that up! ​

That was a slip, as I pointed out. I corrected that in my post above.

And estro made it clear that, although he said other countries hate Israel, Israel didn't hate them and was too peace-loving to stop the hatred (by "stunning fear").

"blind" well describes your reading of estro's post ​

Ah, yes. You are correct, I misread that part. My apologies.

That being said though, I do not buy the argument that Israel is "too peace loving to stop the hatred" based on its actions in the past, but I am not going to go into it and derail the thread.

 

[estro]

I think sometimes my clumsy English backfires on me =)

Off Topic: (About the Palestinians).

Many times IDF soldiers we have to deal with Palestinian civilians, and many times I got the impression they trust us more then they trust their "goverment" and in fact are prisoners of their extremists...
I know not all of them want this conflict, but terror is too rooted in their culture.
(Hamas brainwashing kinds from very early)

 

[Cyrus]

I think sometimes my clumsy English backfires on me =)

Your English fine .

 

[estro]

Your English fine .

So you think it is my opinions?

 

[tiny-tim]

Sorry, I meant to say "wild neighbors." Wild dogs is an american saying

"Lame dogs", yes. "Wild horses", yes.

but since when was "wild dogs" an American saying?

I understand you don't love the countries around you; however, blind hatred is only going to lead you, and your country, into years of more aggression.

Who said anything about hatred, blind or otherwise? …

you made that up! ​

"Our wild neighbors will never rest in fact, until this hatred will be kicked out of them and will be replaced by stunning fear."

That would fall under the definition of blind hated, in my opinion.

Yes, estro, in the words you've highlighted, was very clearly describing the neighbouring countries

But you were acccusing estro (or Israel) of hatred …

and you did make that up.​

… That was a slip, as I pointed out. I corrected that in my post above.

Ah, yes. You are correct, I misread that part. My apologies.

Three strikes.

 

[Cyrus]

"Lame dogs", yes. "Wild horses", yes.

but since when was "wild dogs" an American saying?

You've never heard someone say "wild as a dog"? (Anyways, if you have not it doesn't really matter and arguing this any further is a waste of time).

Yes, estro, in the words you've highlighted, was very clearly describing the neighbouring countries

But you were acccusing estro (or Israel) of hatred …

and you did make that up.​

Three strikes.

Tim, he clearly said: "until this hatred will be kicked out of them and will be replaced by stunning fear."

He said, quite clearly, that the surrounding countries will never end their hatred towards Israel until it is replaced by "stunning fear". I did not make this up. Reread his statement.

 

[Cyrus]

An equally absurd statement would be akin to:

"Well, you see, the United States could drop all our nuclear bombs on Iraq and Afghanistan and end the war on terrorism; but we are too peace loving to do that so we don't".

You take the most extreme position in the first sentence, and then contrast it by saying how you are so peaceful because you don't actually do it in the next sentence. That is not a demonstration of being peaceful.

 

[vertices]

terror is too rooted in their culture[/B]

When you say things like this and when you constantly refer to Arabs as "wild", what you are doing is dehumanising them which really makes me despair.

Do you live in Sderot or Askhelon? I've been there (to Sderot) and I know how it affects people living in constant fear of rocket attacks - I really do.

But hatred flows both ways. I made a point to see how the other side lives and although I won't share with you what I witnessed, suffice it to say, I saw some pretty twisted things which must have been sanctioned by the Government (not the Israeli people).

What I did take away from my trip is that Israel (Jerusalem in particular) is a truly magical place where Jews, Muslims and Christians historically lived alongside each other in peace and harmony. This is how it is meant to be.

The only way to restore it is to stop both sides dehumanising each other. And this is possible and happening right now - take the village of Neve Shalom, where Arabs and Jews live together - it is so touching to see these two communities living out the ideals of equality and peace.

ANYWAY.. a bit more ON TOPIC:

As regards your point about Israel's survival.

What I am saying is that it is simply not true to say that at present Israel is surrounded by states hell bent on its destruction. Israel now has peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan and the Saudis recognises Israel. Ofcourse there is tension with Syria over Golan Heights, but do you honestly think Syria will attack Israel militarily?

 

[estro]

When you say things like this and when you constantly refer to Arabs as "wild", what you are doing is dehumanising them which really makes me despair.

I have seen it from inside.

Do you live in Sderot or Askhelon?

No, but I have lost friends in the army.

The only way to restore it is to stop both sides dehumanising each other. And this is possible and happening right now - take the village of Neve Shalom, where Arabs and Jews live together - it is so touching to see these two communities living out the ideals of equality and peace.

This is my dream.

As regards your point about Israel's survival.

What I am saying is that it is simply not true to say that at present Israel is surrounded by states hell bent on its destruction. Israel now has peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan and the Saudis recognises Israel. Ofcourse there is tension with Syria over Golan Heights, but do you honestly think Syria will attack Israel militarily?

Syria restrained by fear, but we can't disregard their ability to cause serious damage (They have massive quantity of artillery [long/short range])
What about Iran?

 

[vertices]

This is my dream.

Estro, I don't think it's a dream. It's a real possibility although it might not look like it. Have you heard of a band called Idan Raichel Project (they are amazing!)?

I went to one of their gigs in Jerusalem: they have a gorgeous Ethiopian lady, a Palestinian Arab as well as Jews from all over the world. To me the band symbolises what Israel can and should be.

Syria restrained by fear, but we can't disregard their ability to cause serious damage (They have massive quantity of artillery [long/short range])
What about Iran?

Well, Iran may be hostile but again, I don't think it will do anything to attack Israel. Interestingly, a couple of the people I met in Hebron who happened to be Hamas supporters told me they really do not trust Iran at all because they belong to a different Islamic sect...

 

[Office_Shredder]

Well, Iran may be hostile but again, I don't think it will do anything to attack Israel. Interestingly, a couple of the people I met in Hebron who happened to be Hamas supporters told me they really do not trust Iran at all because they belong to a different Islamic sect...

Oh crap, we all forgot UN Resolution 1492: Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend

This could have all been sorted out back in 1968

 

[estro]

Estro, I don't think it's a dream. It's a real possibility although it might not look like it. Have you heard of a band called Idan Raichel Project (they are amazing!)?

Yes they are!

I went to one of their gigs in Jerusalem: they have a gorgeous Ethiopian lady, a Palestinian Arab as well as Jews from all over the world. To me the band symbolises what Israel can and should be.

Amen!

...
Interestingly, a couple of the people I met in Hebron who happened to be Hamas supporters told me they really do not trust Iran at all because they belong to a different Islamic sect...

I remember doing a mounted patrol in Hevron, they drooped refrigerator on our jeep.

 

[Cyrus]

I remember doing a mounted patrol in Hevron, they drooped refrigerator on our jeep.

lol, that's hilarious. I hope no one got hurt. What did you guys do in return?

 

[estro]

lol, that's hilarious. What did you guys do in return?

Checked out the Palestinian kitchen.