WikiLeaks reveals sites critical to US security

[Fra]

I picture it like this: Yes he is causing damage, but the damange might be directed to an undemocratic and partly corrupt workings of a system. I don't think this refer to the country as such and it's people, it refers to the strategy.

Lets consider the following scenario. A big armoured system A, interacts with it's environment. A has gained confidence and used to using forced to bully development in a certain direction at the expense of others. This creates tension in the environment, enemies are grown. But A knows that it's big enough to handle this. So A's strategy works and is successful.

Until the point when someone reveals that A has a weak point, that can't be tightened with bullets. Then A is forces to revise it's survival strategy. The only way to secure it is to make sense there is no one that wants to hit on the weak point, because they see that they are also dependent on you.

/Fredrik

 

[Fra]

The upload this thread is about was done specifically to harm the US. He has now threatened to upload documents that are, in his words, "a thermonuclear device in the information age.” He doesn't care about the harm he does, he now plans to upload all of the unredacted documents with the names and locations of all people. The guy is a scum bag.

Sorry, maybe it's something I missed, is ther a link somewhere?

/Fredrik

 

[Mathnomalous]

The upload this thread is about was done specifically to harm the US. He has now threatened to upload documents that are, in his words, "a thermonuclear device in the information age.” He doesn't care about the harm he does, he now plans to upload all of the unredacted documents with the names and locations of all people. The guy is a scum bag.

Can you provide specific examples of the kind of harm his actions are causing or will cause?

 

[Evo]

Can you provide specific examples of the kind of harm his actions are causing or will cause?

Read the threads.

 

[Mech_Engineer]

Can you provide specific examples of the kind of harm his actions are causing or will cause?

Off the top of my head:

• Releasing names of confidential informants, putting their lives in serious jeopardy and reducing effectiveness of intelligence efforts worldwide.
• Releasing strategic planning documents w.r.t. troops currently deployed abroad.

 

[Evo]

Sorry, maybe it's something I missed, is ther a link somewhere?

/Fredrik

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/assange-threatens-to-release-entire-cache-of-unfiltered-files/article1825922/

 

[Mathnomalous]

Off the top of my head:

• Releasing names of confidential informants, putting their lives in serious jeopardy and reducing effectiveness of intelligence efforts worldwide.
• Releasing strategic planning documents w.r.t. troops currently deployed abroad.

Those are your claims. For all we know, world governments may simply readjust and continue business as usual.

 

[Mech_Engineer]

Those are your claims. For all we know, world governments may simply readjust and continue business as usual.

You asked for specific examples of possible harm, and I obliged. I'm not sure your reply actually makes any useful point w.r.t. my specific examples however...

 

[humanino]

You asked for specific examples of possible harm, and I obliged. I'm not sure your reply actually makes any useful point w.r.t. my specific examples however...

Your answer is speculative. It does not refer to actual events.

 

[Mech_Engineer]

Your answer is speculative. It does not refer to actual events.

So you're looking for historical precedent, as in previously leaked similar documents that caused specific harmful events? That, I don't have on the top of my head, but I will look around.

Edit- it occurs to me that since classified leaked documents are "classified, " I suspect events occurring from their release (without subsequent declassification) would be classified as well. I'm not sure I'll be able to find the specific historical events you seek...

Edit more- I will also point out he asked for "specific examples of the kind of harm his actions are causing or will cause," the "will cause" part being speculative in nature.

 

[rootX]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/rss/int/news/-/news/world-europe-11933089

Wikileaks: US-Nato plan to defend Baltics from Russia

Arguing that wikileaks is not delivering harmful information will be very hard.

 

[rootX]

The upload this thread is about was done specifically to harm the US. He has now threatened to upload documents that are, in his words, "a thermonuclear device in the information age.” He doesn't care about the harm he does, he now plans to upload all of the unredacted documents with the names and locations of all people. The guy is a scum bag.

I think you are neglecting the worst case scenario which is he or one of his aides pass this information to China/Russia/Al-Qeada quietly for big sum of money.
Capturing/killing him or his aides, shutting down wikileaks is a simple minded knee jerk reaction which wouldn't make data disappear. Problem is not him; problem is data is in the hands of people who are not US officials. The US government failed to protect its data; and is trying to pass the blame on people who stole data which is rational and legitimate but that doesn't help undo the mistake. China/Russia/anyone else with people like Assange could also have done this.

 

[humanino]

So you're looking for historical precedent, as in previously leaked similar documents that caused specific harmful events?

No. I do not claim to doubt the leaks will be harmful. In fact Assange himself does not reject the harm, he rather claims for a "greater good". Like they say "one does not make an omelette without breaking eggs"... I am asking whether we have already identified victims, or other form of harm.

I did not ask earlier, but if anybody knows of evidence for anything good resulting from the leaks, it would also be interesting to post them

Edit- it occurs to me that since classified leaked documents are "classified, " I suspect events occurring from their release (without subsequent declassification) would be classified as well. I'm not sure I'll be able to find the specific historical events you seek...

I had not realized this.

Edit more- I will also point out he asked for "specific examples of the kind of harm his actions are causing or will cause," the "will cause" part being speculative in nature.

I noticed the same.

 

[Mathnomalous]

So you're looking for historical precedent, as in previously leaked similar documents that caused specific harmful events? That, I don't have on the top of my head, but I will look around.

Edit- it occurs to me that since classified leaked documents are "classified, " I suspect events occurring from their release (without subsequent declassification) would be classified as well. I'm not sure I'll be able to find the specific historical events you seek...

Edit more- I will also point out he asked for "specific examples of the kind of harm his actions are causing or will cause," the "will cause" part being speculative in nature.

In other words, any harm that occurs from these releases will probably be kept classified and we may possibly continue living normal lives. Here is an information release that actually caused harm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ems_Dispatch

The Ems Dispatch (French: Dépêche d'Ems, German: Emser Depesche), sometimes called the Ems Telegram, caused France to declare the Franco-Prussian War in July 1870. The actual dispatch was an internal message from the Prussian King's vacationing site to Bismarck in Berlin, reporting demands made by the French ambassador; it was Bismarck's released statement to the press that became known as Ems Dispatch. The name referred to Bad Ems, a resort spa east of Koblenz on the Lahn river, then situated in Hesse-Nassau, a new possession of Prussia.

Here is another classified document leak that caused harm:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimmermann_Telegram

The Zimmermann Telegram (or Zimmermann Note; German: Zimmermann-Depesche; Spanish: Telegrama Zimmermann) was a 1917 diplomatic proposal from the German Empire to Mexico to make war against the United States. The proposal was declined by Mexico, but angered Americans and led in part to the declaration of war in April.

The Zimmermann Telegram was intercepted and decoded by the British cryptographers of Room 40.[2] The revelation of its contents in the American press on March 1 caused public outrage that contributed to the United States' declaration of war against Germany and its allies on April 6.

I think you are neglecting the worst case scenario which is he or one of his aides pass this information to China/Russia/Al-Qeada quietly for big sum of money.

As opposed to those foreign countries waiting for the information to be released for free.

 

[Fra]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/assange-threatens-to-release-entire-cache-of-unfiltered-files/article1825922/

Thanks.

From that information it seems the motive seems to be simply an insurance against responses to the previously released information that means attempting to terminate wikileaks. It seems they have on purpose not published that because the "temporary conflict" that may arise due to revealing it, risk beeing fatal - in accordance with the rationale that the purpose is to strengthen and develop the global democracy - not destroy it.

Somehow this is the only defense they have. My hope is that, development quickly takes the turn so that these overly sensitive documents does not have to be released.

My impression is still that it's not wikileaks goal to release fatallysensitive information. I don't think they will publish this if the threats against wikilekas ang assange is dropped.

I think it's a mistake to try to shutdown wikileaks and Assange. It's not the response I hope for. It's clear however that it's politically incorrect to approve assange, so I fully understand the protests. But I think trying to shutdown and kill this guy is irrational.

/Fredrik

 

[Newai]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/assange-threatens-to-release-entire-cache-of-unfiltered-files/article1825922/

Mr. Assange’s lawyer Mark Stephens warned that if Mr. Assange were to be brought to trial on rape accusations he faces in Sweden, or for treason charges that have been suggested by U.S. politicians, he would release the encryption key. The tens of thousands of people who have downloaded the file would instantly have access to the names, addresses and details contained in the file.

This is disgusting.

 

[Galteeth]

This is disgusting.

Why?

 

[Fra]

Lets not forget that Assange is now in a desperate situation. Anyone with some ability to project how other people think and act would expect no less than a desperate REaction.

Press anyone into a corner and see what happens. He will take actions that otherwise he would never think of. This is rational indeed.

Rational <> Right, though. To see the rational in something doesn't mean you agree. But it certainly helps analyse the situation in order to for yourself take the right actions.

Edit: Assange is most certainly not afraid to respond to his sex charges in Sweden. This is a peanut in the context. He is afraid that someone will arrest him here and bring it to countries that will do bad things to him. Completely understandable. His actions are again rational, given the situation.

/Fredrik

 

[Newai]

Why?

He's using the classified cables as leverage against the allegations of a sex offense, putting lives at risk for his own purposes.

 

[rootX]

He's using the classified cables as leverage against the allegations of a sex offense, putting lives at risk for his own purposes.

Post #3:

This action was wrong.

But, situation has turned so bad - with paypal canceling their donations, banks freezing their assets, death threats to the founder, arrest seen as politically motivated by wikileaks - I no longer expect any rational response from Wikileaks anymore that is: if they had any little concern about the US security (not diplomatic) before it is gone now. In other words, I would expect more aggressive actions from the organization.

...

 

[Galteeth]

He's using the classified cables as leverage against the allegations of a sex offense, putting lives at risk for his own purposes.

I'm assuming his position is that the charges are bogus and retaliation for wikileaks.

 

[Fra]

I'm assuming his position is that the charges are bogus and retaliation for wikileaks.

I have to admit that my expectation is that they ARE likely bogus constructions too.

So does a large portion of the public (not everyone of course). In particular the proven history, that some people do construct "bogus reasons" to justify actions, this sceptsisims is in fact justifed. This is indeed sad, but this is yet just another reason rational reason why information needs to be exposed to the democratic system - hidden strategies threaten democracy. The fact that he is so afraid to answer to his charges of sex charges because he has a justified fear to be abducted or taken away in despite of promisies of the contrary is a severe sign of corruption. When the justice system can 't be trusted to be fair, then it's really bad.

/Fredrik

 

[xxChrisxx]

Mr. Assange’s lawyer Mark Stephens warned that if Mr. Assange were to be brought to trial on rape accusations he faces in Sweden, or for treason charges that have been suggested by U.S. politicians

Treason? How can the US try an Austrailian for treason? Either that's made up or whoever said it doesn't understand the word.

I've no doubt there is a case he could be done in the US for espionage (which I'm fairly sure carries the same level of penalites as treason), but you can't be a traitor to someone you don't have alleigence to.

You could try the bloke who stole the documents for treason.

 

[Pengwuino]

He has been detained in Britain.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40544697/ns/us_news-wikileaks_in_security/

LONDON — British police arrested WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange Tuesday on a European warrant issued by Sweden, London's Metropolitan Police said.

 

[Pengwuino]

Treason? How can the US try an Austrailian for treason? Either that's made up or whoever said it doesn't understand the word.

I've no doubt there is a case he could be done in the US for espionage (which I'm fairly sure carries the same level of penalites as treason), but you can't be a traitor to someone you don't have alleigence to.

You could try the bloke who stole the documents for treason.

I'm fairly sure the video of the politician saying it was him saying it fairly tongue and cheek. Treason, espionage, whatever, the idea is that he should be charged for what he did, released secret government documents.

You can point out all the technicalities and morality and freedom of the press issues you want, bottom line is he is an enemy of the united states, released secret documents, and should be treated just as if a Taliban member released secret documents. Just because he did it in a high tech manner and has lots of nice media coverage and tons of stock footage of him doing respectable presentations doesn't change this fact.

 

[xxChrisxx]

I certainly hope it was tongue in cheek, because a politicain who doesn't understand a word like that kind of worries me a little.

I really don't care what goes on regarding the outcome of this, it's interesting (a bit like a soap opera), but at the end of the day I couldn't give a toss.

 

[Fra]

Very interesting indeed.

It will be very interesting to see how this develops further!

/Fredrik

 

[Fra]

I really don't care what goes on regarding the outcome of this, it's interesting (a bit like a soap opera), but at the end of the day I couldn't give a toss.

But a lot of people do care (wherever the symphaty lies) and a lot of people will take actions based on either outcome I am sure.

it's interesting (a bit like a soap opera)

I think it's better than super bowl :)

/Fredrik

 

[WhoWee]

Money is just markers. Place-makers that allow us to pass "value" around. You know that.

If somebody grabs info that shows that our government is complicit in bribery/illegality, etc, that should be fair game. Daniel Ellsburg was a speed-bump in the path of oligarchy, but I'm glad that he was there.

Ellsburg has commented.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/24/world/24assange.html?_r=3&hp

"“I’ve been waiting 40 years for someone to disclose information on a scale that might really make a difference,” said Daniel Ellsberg, who exposed a 1,000-page secret study of the Vietnam War in 1971 that became known as the Pentagon Papers.

Mr. Ellsberg said he saw kindred spirits in Mr. Assange and Pfc. Bradley Manning, the 22-year-old former Army intelligence operative under detention in Quantico, Va., suspected of leaking the Iraq and Afghan documents.

“They were willing to go to prison for life, or be executed, to put out this information,” Mr. Ellsberg said. "

I'm not so sure he's correct in his assumption of their willingness to go to prison or be executed though.

 

[Dr Lots-o'watts]

Can you provide specific examples of the kind of harm his actions are causing or will cause?

The information given out is stuff some non-US intelligence agencies would pay large amounts to try to obtain. The US has also spent large amounts to maintain it classified. See the imbalance?

 

[zomgwtf]

The information given out is stuff some non-US intelligence agencies would pay large amounts to try to obtain. The US has also spent large amounts to maintain it classified. See the imbalance?

People are so focused on terrorist being the enemy and used to world peace that they forget there are very real enemy nations out there and very real possibilities of future enemies. This is not information that should be released.

 

[Dr Lots-o'watts]

If they were to release similar loads of information from large, industrialized Asian or European countries, they would have more sympathy. Personally, I don't smell that coming around.

 

[WhoWee]

The information given out is stuff some non-US intelligence agencies would pay large amounts to try to obtain. The US has also spent large amounts to maintain it classified. See the imbalance?

You make a valid point - perhaps the US should bring suit for it's financial losses - could be hundreds of billions of dollars - all expenses considered?

 

[turbo]

If they were to release similar loads of information from large, industrialized Asian or European countries, they would have more sympathy. Personally, I don't smell that coming around.

If Wikileaks released a similar info-dump of Russian dispatches, he'd probably be dead already. Just my opinion, but they don't seem to fool around.

 

[WhoWee]

If Wikileaks released a similar info-dump of Russian dispatches, he'd probably be dead already. Just my opinion, but they don't seem to fool around.

I wouldn't try it in China either.