Will humans ever really understand why the universe exists?

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In summary, the conversation discusses the limitations of human understanding in regards to the universe and its existence. Some believe that humans will eventually discover how the universe works, but the concept of a "why" is seen as a human creation and does not have to exist outside of ourselves. The conversation also touches on the desire for a purpose or meaning in the universe and how this search is often driven by religious beliefs. Ultimately, it is suggested that there may never be a definitive answer to the question of why the universe exists, as human knowledge is constantly evolving and limited.
  • #36
About 97 percent of humans don't know there is a universe. They think its all heaven or hell or tomato aspec and little pointy stars. Or, they don't notice anything because they're too busy complaining or finding food or primping themselves in the mirror.
 
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  • #37
baywax said:
Or, they don't notice anything because they're too busy complaining or finding food or primping themselves in the mirror.

What a sad fact... :frown:
 
  • #38
robertm said:
What a sad fact... :frown:

Its only sad if you think there is a useful purpose to understanding the mechanisms of the universe as it is portrayed today by 3 percent of the population. If there is no purpose served then the 97 percent are not missing anything.

But I think there is a great purpose to understanding the workings of the universe... not the least of which is that knowing something about it makes you realize you are a very small part of it... and that whether you recognize the universe or not won't matter too much.
 
  • #39
Imagine what the world would be like if those statistics were reversed... Maybe that's the next evolutionary leap...

There will never be anything more important than the search for knowledge, no petty disputes, no wars, nothing can ever take president over the advancement of knowledge. When there are more people who realize this than who prescribe to todays mode of thinking, the human race will actually have a chance at surviving for an appreciable amount of time.
 
  • #40
robertm said:
Imagine what the world would be like if those statistics were reversed... Maybe that's the next evolutionary leap...

There will never be anything more important than the search for knowledge, no petty disputes, no wars, nothing can ever take president over the advancement of knowledge. When there are more people who realize this than who prescribe to todays mode of thinking, the human race will actually have a chance at surviving for an appreciable amount of time.

Knowledge of ignorance, pettiness and dispute is valuable knowledge as long as its in retrospect. Without the experience and knowledge of ignorance etc... these conditions go unchecked.

edit: So, in this way, ignorance is valuable.
 
  • #41
Very true, but I don't need any modern examples to be convinced. Enough time has passed and enough history has been gathered to show the ignorance that humans are capable of. And I don't want any part of it. And neither should anyone who has the ability to think rationally.

I think that this is one of the few lessons that you do not need to personally experience to learn.

It just seems so utterly obvious that if survival and advancement are the goals, then war, bigotry, ignorance and the like should be shunned with the utmost vigor.

I hate the fact that the people who live for everything that rational people abhor, could ever hold me and my decedents back from achieving a higher state of knowledge and understanding. But hopefully old atlas will give a shrug and people with reason can win out in the end. :rolleyes:
 
  • #42
robertm said:
Very true, but I don't need any modern examples to be convinced. Enough time has passed and enough history has been gathered to show the ignorance that humans are capable of. And I don't want any part of it. And neither should anyone who has the ability to think rationally.

I think that this is one of the few lessons that you do not need to personally experience to learn.

It just seems so utterly obvious that if survival and advancement are the goals, then war, bigotry, ignorance and the like should be shunned with the utmost vigor.

I hate the fact that the people who live for everything that rational people abhor, could ever hold me and my decedents back from achieving a higher state of knowledge and understanding. But hopefully old atlas will give a shrug and people with reason can win out in the end. :rolleyes:

Its gotten to a point where people like the historical Herod (ie: Jewish historian Josephus (c. 37–c.100) wrote about the period and recorded Herod's cruelty.) have become accepted in corporate and political circles. The number of incidents of infanticide, genocide and random violence is spreading around the globe.

This is the norm. People expect full on ignorance and viciousness. How could you turn that around and what does it have to do with understanding why the universe exists?
 
  • #43
It has everything to do with the understanding of the universe. The social situation of the world in general makes or breaks the ability of a scientist to achieve. Just look at the dark ages. Because the full knowledge that we have obtained is and never will be thanks solely to one person, the longer that a stable and intelligent society exist, the more generations of humans their will be to seriously study and discover facts of the universe.

I am by no means denying the fact that ignorance and viciousness is the norm today, I am suggesting the fact that it should be obvious to shun any form of that behavior. And by shunning that behavior what could arise is a society that supports free inquiry and the search for knowledge as one of the most important means to insure the long term survival of the human race.
 
  • #44
robertm said:
It has everything to do with the understanding of the universe. The social situation of the world in general makes or breaks the ability of a scientist to achieve. Just look at the dark ages. Because the full knowledge that we have obtained is and never will be thanks solely to one person, the longer that a stable and intelligent society exist, the more generations of humans their will be to seriously study and discover facts of the universe.

I am by no means denying the fact that ignorance and viciousness is the norm today, I am suggesting the fact that it should be obvious to shun any form of that behavior. And by shunning that behavior what could arise is a society that supports free inquiry and the search for knowledge as one of the most important means to insure the long term survival of the human race.

I mostly agree here but I also think there is the same amount of ignorance and cruelty as there was 2 - 3 - 10 thousand years ago. There are just more people today so it looks like there are more vicioius people when the number is the same per capita.

The worst of it is that today an "understanding" of the mechanism of the universe is available to over 2 billion people yet the importance placed on understanding it is very low. The observable laws and outcomes and reasons behind the outcomes taking place right before us in our universe seem to elude the very rich and elite... and they keep on going against preservation laws etc.. to keep their bank accounts full and their egos stoked.

The complete text is there for the reading (in studying nature)... how every person can survive comfortably and harmoniously with each other. The book is wide open and right in front of everyone. Yet, as was the case in the Dark Ages, or ancient times or the dirty 30s or the world wars or the recessions or Peak Oil... no one is taking the time to read the writing on the wall. They're a little too busy stroking the bank manager and placating their fears of "loosing it all".
 
  • #45
I don't really think it is a meaningful question.
 
  • #46
baywax said:
About 97 percent of humans don't know there is a universe. They think its all heaven or hell or tomato aspec and little pointy stars. Or, they don't notice anything because they're too busy complaining or finding food or primping themselves in the mirror.

Well said.
 
  • #47
Holocene said:
Well said.

Thank you.

Well, why the universe exists?

Because the universe is what happens after a big bang. Its a law of nature.

Before the big bang the laws of nature may have been very different, according to Prof. Hawking. The big bang which, thankfully, is definitely a constant and a law of nature that throws the cards in the air and produces a new set of rules, started the process of universe building. Then we get a universe like the one we know and love, now. This is why the universe exists, as it does, today, because it is a law of nature that decrees that there be a universe, usually, after a big bang.

Problem solved... Thread Locked...

(How come it doesn't work when I say it?!)
 
  • #48
baywax said:
The universe is what happens after a big bang. Its a law of nature... it is a law of nature that decrees that there be a universe, usually, after a big bang.

I guess we could wrap up this discussion except for that word "usually" that crept in there. What happens after the other, more unusual big bangs is the nub of the question.
 
  • #49
One should have started with a similar question, will humans ever find out *if* the universe exists ? :bugeye:
 
  • #50
vanesch said:
One should have started with a similar question, will humans ever find out *if* the universe exists ? :bugeye:

vanesch, we may first have to define the use of "exists" before furthering that discussion.
Your idea of existing may vary greatly from mine or someone's grasp of existence in Borneo.
 
  • #51
For instance, does an illusion exist?
 
  • #52
Asking why there is a universe is like asking whether or not your pencil is married. I suppose if you wanted to you could ask such questions, but there really is no point; the why of the universe question has no more meaning than the pencil question.
 
  • #53
Daniel Y. said:
Asking why there is a universe is like asking whether or not your pencil is married. I suppose if you wanted to you could ask such questions, but there really is no point; the why of the universe question has no more meaning than the pencil question.

Hi, I'm actually into polygamy with a group of pencils ranging from 3b to 1f.
 
  • #54
Ha Ha ha! I have that that same problem, except my wives are pens ranging from 0.2 - 0.5mm ... at least you can sharpen yours!
 
  • #55
A century ago you might have been in a better position to answer it will never be understood, it is beyond science etc. The one who said it would be discovered would have had to admit he had no idea how or what.

But now we are getting things like inflation, theories of everything, string theory and cosmological understanding, with their experimetal/observational backups.

This might not be right, final, complete etc. but it is a huge advance in a fairly short time on having not a clue.

Therefore I think it is reasonable to think we shall have this understanding within the lifetime of most readers.
 
  • #56
Holocene said:
We can and have made models that explain in great detail and even more importantly, WHY the universe exists at all?


It's important to think about what kind of answer you're searching. What will be satisfactory? In general: what on Earth is a why-question?
 
  • #57
kasse said:
It's important to think about what kind of answer you're searching. What will be satisfactory? In general: what on Earth is a why-question?

Yeah, why is half of the word "whine".

But, I think I've answered the question in a sequential sense where... because of the singularity of the big bang, the complexity of the universe developed.

The next why will be, "why did the big bang happen"... and I'd say it was a reaction to an imbalance going on between a remaining em wave of a previous universe and... the "void".

The worst thing about why questions is that they can go on forever... they're a trick that 3 year old kids use to annoy grown-ups.
 
  • #58
I think we are reading too much into the question, personally (granted we are in the philosophy forum).

When I read the thread title, I was thinking along the lines of "How did the universe come about?", essentially origin of the universe stuff, etc.

I don't know if we will ever know this stuff, or even if the data we can now gather can gives us enough information. I believe that the Scientific American had an article on this issue (something regarding the Death of Cosmology?).

Regardless, it should be interesting how far we can push our limits. The Large Hadron Collider could be giving us very interesting data in 2-3 months. My bet is that before all is said and done, we'll know a lot of how the universe came to be what it now is.
 
  • #59
end3r7 said:
The Large Hadron Collider could be giving us very interesting data in 2-3 months. My bet is that before all is said and done, we'll know a lot of how the universe came to be what it now is.

If it doesn't transform us all into a black hole, wheeeeeee!.

The builders of the world's biggest particle collider are being sued in federal court over fears that the experiment might create globe-gobbling black holes or never-before-seen strains of matter that would destroy the planet.

http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/03/27/823924.aspx
 
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  • #60
Wow, they are already jumping on that, jeez I mean I saw it coming but I never imagined any action would be taken in till after the LHC cranked up... How incredibly sad, I wonder how much time and money that lawsuit is going to cost the team...

Not to mention the people bringing this lawsuit have a history of this doomsday nonsense, and they failed the last time. It will be quite an atrocity if some unqualified American crackpots are really given the power to halt a multi-billion dollar project in France/Switzerland.
 
  • #61
I think that how always includes the why, but may necessitate more than just the answer of why. So asking how is like asking why and then some. For example if you ask why you signed up for physics forums, then you could answer because I wanted to. If you ask how did you sign up, the answer could include the whole set of whys all the way back to why the universe exists. How are you here and able to think, and then what processes led to the decision of signing up, how is there a physics forums in the first place, how does the internet exist for physics forums to be on etc etc. How is the cumulation of all factors and processes that made the event possible.

So I think that why is more likely to be answered than how, because how always includes the why.
 
  • #62
robertm said:
Wow, they are already jumping on that, jeez I mean I saw it coming but I never imagined any action would be taken in till after the LHC cranked up... How incredibly sad, I wonder how much time and money that lawsuit is going to cost the team...

Not to mention the people bringing this lawsuit have a history of this doomsday nonsense, and they failed the last time. It will be quite an atrocity if some unqualified American crackpots are really given the power to halt a multi-billion dollar project in France/Switzerland.

Yeah, besides, why deny all of humanity the thrill of a lifetime. Turning into a black hole! Seriously, mind you, who are these people with the determination to bring this nebulous issue to supreme court?
 
  • #63
I don't think so. It's not for us to know.
 
  • #64
BrooklynBees said:
I don't think so. It's not for us to know.

Says who?? Who or what should prevent us? I have already stated that the 'why' question is a matter of semantics, but if you are stating that attaining a full understanding of the how when where ect... of the universe, of everything at all times, is not for us to know;

then I ask you to back that statement up with some sort of evidence, logical or physical; because I can not possibly imagine anyway that your statement could be logical unless you are alluding to religious supernatural ideas...

We the human race are not separate from the universe, we are a product of it. We are as of yet a very rare manifestation of matter, just the same as any other physical manifestation of matter.

So then how could there possibly be any reason for us not to know ourselves??

If I've misunderstood your post BrooklynBees then I apologize for my frankness. I simply am very passionate about the cosmos and I consider myself to be an extension of the stars :smile:
 
  • #65
robertm said:
Says who?? Who or what should prevent us? I have already stated that the 'why' question is a matter of semantics, but if you are stating that attaining a full understanding of the how when where ect... of the universe, of everything at all times, is not for us to know;

then I ask you to back that statement up with some sort of evidence, logical or physical; because I can not possibly imagine anyway that your statement could be logical unless you are alluding to religious supernatural ideas...

We the human race are not separate from the universe, we are a product of it. We are as of yet a very rare manifestation of matter, just the same as any other physical manifestation of matter.

So then how could there possibly be any reason for us not to know ourselves??

If I've misunderstood your post BrooklynBees then I apologize for my frankness. I simply am very passionate about the cosmos and I consider myself to be an extension of the stars :smile:

It might not be for us to know the same way it isn't for bacteria to know why a dirty sponge exists.
 
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  • #66
robertm said:
I simply am very passionate about the cosmos and I consider myself to be an extension of the stars :smile:

Passion can be very blinding to the truth some times. You should never mix emotion with scientific reasoning.
 
  • #67
Your argument is invalid, bacteria have just as much a right to understand themselves as we do, they simply do not have the mental capacity to. If you believe that is the case with humans then your argument might have something to it, though I disagree.

Agreed, passion in its most base forms is ugly and indeed blinding. I used the word passion because it is the closest approximation that I could think of to explain how I feel when I think about the cosmos in a non-acedimic setting. I assure you that when it comes to scientific reasoning my left brain fully takes over. Also, my comment about my passion was used as an explanation for my language, not my reasoning.
 
  • #68
robertm said:
and I consider myself to be an extension of the stars :smile:

That makes you nearly 14 billion years old, and everything else too.
 
  • #69
Precisely baywax! I am quite traveled, as we all are (our atoms anyway).
 
  • #70
robertm said:
Precisely baywax! I am quite traveled, as we all are (our atoms anyway).

What else is there? And (in the spirit of this thread) why is it?!
 

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