Wisconsin labor protests it's like Cairo has moved to Madison these days

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In summary, the Wisconsin Senate blocked passage of a sweeping anti-union bill Thursday by leaving the state to force Republicans to negotiate over the proposal. The group of Wisconsin lawmakers disappeared from the Capitol hours later, and one of them told The Associated Press that the group had left Wisconsin.
  • #176
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  • #177
WhoWee said:
I didn't notice if anyone posted these?

http://www.revenue.wi.gov/faqs/pcs/taxrates.html

Top income tax rate is 7.75% (over a fixed max). The sales tax is 5% to 5.5%.

Note - the state sales tax is 5% flat. The extra possible 0.5% is either county or in the case of Brown County it is a stadium tax to pay for Lambeau Field or the southeastern counties have a 0.1% Miller Park tax.
 
  • #178
WhoWee said:
This is interesting.

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/special-report/transcript/low-grades-wisconsin-schools

"Just days after Wisconsin teachers forced school closings so they could engage in protest marches, we learn that two-thirds of the eighth graders in the state's public schools cannot read proficiently."

Which is 4% higher than the national average. You need to consider relative differences here since proficiency is a relative metric.

Since Fox (like every other major news outlet) can't be bothered to actually cite their research, I will present something similar. Wisconsin is a well educated state. See this link for the number of high scores on standardized tests by state: http://www.higheredinfo.org/dbrowser/index.php?measure=22
Wisconsin is in the top bracket.

Also see ACT scores by state: http://www.act.org/news/data/09/states.html
In composite score, Wisconsin is ranked 13th in composite score and 14th for reading.
 
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  • #179


Ya I just really feel sorry for the children that have to grow up to eventually deal with the mess left behind from this. Not only are they missing school days but the likelihood that teaching in general will only get worse after this seems likely to me. And this is all the result of food shortage in the world? I remember hearing about food being dumped so prices wouldn't fall and that whole bio fuel garbage. In all honesty I think walker has to budge on this one and just let the state go into debt or find some other way to come up with the money. They probably already created as much debt from this whole thing as they would have saved from all the protesting and what not.
 
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  • #181
Norman said:
Which is 4% higher than the national average. You need to consider relative differences here since proficiency is a relative metric.

Since Fox (like every other major news outlet) can't be bothered to actually cite their research, I will present something similar. Wisconsin is a well educated state. See this link for the number of high scores on standardized tests by state: http://www.higheredinfo.org/dbrowser/index.php?measure=22
Wisconsin is in the top bracket.

Also see ACT scores by state: http://www.act.org/news/data/09/states.html
In composite score, Wisconsin is ranked 13th in composite score and 14th for reading.

After digging through your links.

http://measuringup2008.highereducation.org/print/state_reports/long/WI.pdf

(Page 3) This report gives Wisconsin an "F" for Afforability - 4 year colleges.
[URL]http://measuringup2008.highereducation.org/print/state_reports/long/WI.pdf[/URL]

The link for all of the states:
http://measuringup2008.highereducation.org/states/report_print.php
 
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  • #182


What does any of this have to do with the reality that having made all financial concessions, it's now about busting a union, and bypassing the legislative process. You know me WhoWee... like Gokul I'm not distracted or impressed by chaff.
 
  • #183


nismaratwork said:
What does any of this have to do with the reality that having made all financial concessions, it's now about busting a union, and bypassing the legislative process.

The problem, as I've come to understand it, is there isn't enough time to renegotiate all of the various state and local contracts - even with the general discussion of concessions. It's been estimated the typical local negotiation takes more than a year to complete.

I was surprised to see my state also scored an "F" for affordability - while California was rated a "C-"? I thought others might like to see how their states rate? Perhaps you would prefer I respond to a "bogeyman" discussion - might be fun?:rolleyes:
 
  • #184


WhoWee said:
The problem, as I've come to understand it, is there isn't enough time to renegotiate all of the various state and local contracts - even with the general discussion of concessions. It's been estimated the typical local negotiation takes more than a year to complete.

I was surprised to see my state also scored an "F" for affordability - while California was rated a "C-"? I thought others might like to see how their states rate? Perhaps you would prefer I respond to a "bogeyman" discussion - might be fun?:rolleyes:

Cali got a C-?!... sheesh. I'm going to look at the regional breakdowns of this, because unions aside, I find these facts very disturbing. Maybe material for an education thread... unions, and budgets aside.
 
  • #185


WhoWee said:
After digging through your links.

http://measuringup2008.highereducation.org/print/state_reports/long/WI.pdf

(Page 3) This report gives Wisconsin an "F" for Afforability - 4 year colleges.
[URL]http://measuringup2008.highereducation.org/print/state_reports/long/WI.pdf[/URL]

The link for all of the states:
http://measuringup2008.highereducation.org/states/report_print.php

Again misleading. They gave 49 states an F for affordability. And one state a C- (California). Instead of using made up metrics - how you define affordability is very subjective - why not stick simply to the numbers?

Tuition at Madison is about $9k/year (in state), it is a top 50 school in the country (ranked 45 by US News). There was only one university ranked higher than it that had a lower tuition rate. Madison is ranked #13 for public institutions. See http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings Given the current options, Madison seems like a very good investment. But this is a personal opinion not a fact.
 
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  • #186


Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the majority of the school workers this bill would affect public school teachers and not university staff?
 
  • #187


Norman said:
Again misleading. They gave 49 states an F for affordability. And one state a C- (California). Instead of using made up metrics - how you define affordability is very subjective - why not stick simply to the numbers?

Obviously I didn't open every link - just my state, Wisconsin and California (because I expected CA to be more expensive). Was it posted somewhere that 49 states were graded an "F"? Again, I was digging in your links.
 
  • #188


Believe it or not, this news got almost as much attention as Libya on Sweden prime time news this evening!

I’ve listen to the radio earlier this day, and they said this is the 'seed' for a new "Anti-Tea Party Movement". Is this true?


Looks like http://www.zazzle.com/wisconsin_anti_tea_party_button-145330043039902288" has everything needed in stock... :rolleyes:

wisconsin_anti_tea_party_button-p145330043039902288cff6_400.jpg


(What will the official name be? The Beer Party? :smile:)
 
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  • #189
WhoWee said:
Obviously I didn't open every link - just my state, Wisconsin and California (because I expected CA to be more expensive). Was it posted somewhere that 49 states were graded an "F"? Again, I was digging in your links.

It was in the Wisconsin one.
 
  • #190
Containment said:
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the majority of the school workers this bill would affect public school teachers and not university staff?
I don't know the exact breakdown, but school teachers (K-12) are probably a larger number than professors. But if you include TAs, who are also unionized, they numbers might be closer.
 
  • #191


WhoWee said:
As for repeating that legislators were not given adequate time to read the 2,000+ page final document - I'll say it again now - they didn't read the Bill. Now we know the law might not even be legal - maybe they should've gotten an opinion before enacting the law - but that would have required THEY READ IT FIRST - wouldn't it?

How do you know they didn't read it? I managed to read it, and at the time I was writing a phd thesis. The healthcare debate ate months of time, why wouldn't legislators read it, or at minimum, have an aid read it and lay it out?
 
  • #192
ParticleGrl said:
How do you know they didn't read it? I managed to read it, and at the time I was writing a phd thesis. The healthcare debate ate months of time, why wouldn't legislators read it, or at minimum, have an aid read it and lay it out?

I can dig up additional support - but this summarizes the moment rather well. You were probably too busy at the time to have heard this - one of the most bizarre statements of all time - IMO.
http://nation.foxnews.com/nancy-pelosi/2010/03/09/we-have-pass-bill-so-you-can-find-out-what-it
 
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  • #193
WhoWee said:
I can dig up additional support - but this summarizes the moment rather well. You were probably too busy at the time to have heard this - one of the most bizarre statements of all time - IMO.
http://nation.foxnews.com/nancy-pelosi/2010/03/09/we-have-pass-bill-so-you-can-find-out-what-it

Honestly, that's not as damning as you seem to think. I prefer to give her the benefit of the doubt. "so you can find out what's in it" = "so you can see its effects as they happen." Certainly this in no way supports your contention that no one read the bill.
 
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  • #194


WhoWee said:
As for repeating that legislators were not given adequate time to read the 2,000+ page final document...
I have to disagree with this completely. The number of legislators that were required to vote for the bill prior to reading it was zero. If they didn't have time to read it before the scheduled vote, they should have voted no. Voting to enact a law to be enforced against citizens means either they read the bill or chose not to.
 
  • #195


nismaratwork said:
What does any of this have to do with the reality that having made all financial concessions, it's now about busting a union, and bypassing the legislative process.
One thing that seems absent in this debate is that democratic government, by its nature, cannot make deals with its employees about what the future government will or won't do.

Democratic government is very different than a private company: current representatives are not free to make agreements which bind future representatives of the people. And future representatives cannot be bound by agreements made by past representatives. Collective bargaining cannot be permitted to change that. That would undermine the democratic process entirely.

And a strike by public employees is an obstruction of the operations of government. Democratic government cannot make law based on the demands of striking employees.

Obviously a strike by school teachers isn't as much an obstruction of democratic government operations as a strike by police (or air traffic controllers) would be, but the principle is the same: If the people hired by democratic government to serve the people refuse to do so, they must be replaced by people who will.

Democratic government cannot allow demands of its employees to affect policy, thereby undermining the democratic process completely.
 
  • #196


Al68 said:
One thing that seems absent in this debate is that democratic government, by its nature, cannot make deals with its employees about what the future government will or won't do.

Democratic government is very different than a private company: current representatives are not free to make agreements which bind future representatives of the people. And future representatives cannot be bound by agreements made by past representatives. Collective bargaining cannot be permitted to change that. That would undermine the democratic process entirely.

And a strike by public employees is an obstruction of the operations of government. Democratic government cannot make law based on the demands of striking employees.

Obviously a strike by school teachers isn't as much an obstruction of democratic government operations as a strike by police (or air traffic controllers) would be, but the principle is the same: If the people hired by democratic government to serve the people refuse to do so, they must be replaced by people who will.

Democratic government cannot allow demands of its employees to affect policy, thereby undermining the democratic process completely.

Given that the unions in question have agreed to all financial concessions, I'd say the easiest course of action would be the removal of the Governor. Beyond that, laws made in one congress absolutely bind another, unless they "re-negotiate" it through legilsation and the courts. We don't live in a democracy, it's an Indirectly Federated Republic.
 
  • #197


nismaratwork said:
Given that the unions in question have agreed to all financial concessions, I'd say the easiest course of action would be the removal of the Governor.
I don't follow. On what grounds and what does it have to do with my post? How would removing the Governor fix the problem with allowing public employees to obstruct the operation of democratic government?
Beyond that, laws made in one congress absolutely bind another, unless they "re-negotiate" it through legilsation and the courts.
Yes. Except I would disagree with your wording. Government is bound by current law passed by previous governments, unless and until congress changes the law. I never said otherwise. Did you misread my post?
 
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  • #198


The governor started this mess. He is attempting to modify a law/act, originally meant to install some level of fairness in the employer/employee relationship. The Wagner Act (1935) was enacted by the U.S. CONGRESS, A GOVERNOR of a STATE is attempting to change//modify/strike out portions of said Act. If Wisconsin isn't a Right - To - Work state then he should probably work on making it one, if that's what the public wants. (not what the Koch's want)
 
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  • #199


Amp1 said:
The governor started this mess.

No. The people of Wisconsin started it when they elected him Governor. Furthermore, it's not like the entire state is against him, as most are not against him. Only some in the state, those who are most adversely affected by his cost-cutting measures, are raising the ruckus. Those who're paying through the nose in taxes while receiving minimal benefit are cheering his cost-cutting measures.

He is attempting to modify a law/act, originally meant to install some level of fairness in the employer/employee relationship. The Wagner Act (1935) was enacted by the U.S. CONGRESS, A GOVERNOR of a STATE is attempting to change//modify/strike out portions of said Act.

It may interest you to know that only a few powers were given by the U.S. Constitution to the federal government, and that all other powers were reserved to the individual States. Furthermore, ours is a United States, where the states retain their sovereignty, except as specifically provided by the Constitution. That's why individual states can, and should, tell the feds to go fish when the feds overstep the boundaries of their Constitutional mandate, and that is not an infrequent occurrence.

ETA (source): Tenth Amendment to the United States Constitution: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Then again, you might be interested in that at all. Some people are only interested in increasing their slice of the pie.
 
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  • #200


WhoWee said:
What is a "moneyed interest" - how much money do unions contribute to elections? Would it be fair for a union to support a candidate - then get special assistance in a crisis?

It's clear what a moneyed interest is, and it would be bad for the voters coming from either side, and I am sure there are examples from either side. What possible benefit would it give a voter?

WhoWee said:
Are you suggesting that the 14 Senators that fled the state - to hide out (apparently at taxpayer expense) and avoid doing their job - be booted?

Anyone who is elected to represent a group of people. There should be a way to hold them accountable to that group and for that group to be able to remove them.

Something like this (from another thread):

Tony Benn (retired U.K. politician) has five questions to ask anyone who takes power:

What power have you got?
Where did you get it from?
In whose interests do you exercise it?
To whom are you accountable?
And how can we get rid of you?

Though I can't think of any example of elected people where this holds.

WhoWee said:
Which would be worse - if the 14 Senators had their expenses (incurred while hiding out of state from voting on important legislation) paid by the taxpayers or by a union? Any opinions?

Logically I would assume the taxpayer would foot any such bill as they are elected by taxpayers and not by union members. Morally, to do so they would have to justify their actions to the taxpayer, and if they couldn't, one would hope there would be a mechanism in place to boot them out.
 
  • #201


ParticleGrl said:
How do you know they didn't read it? I managed to read it, and at the time I was writing a phd thesis. The healthcare debate ate months of time, why wouldn't legislators read it, or at minimum, have an aid read it and lay it out?

The Democrats rammed the legislation through - tactics were well documented.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...kers-aim-push-back-against-hasty-votes/print/
Do you not recall?
 
  • #202


mugaliens said:
No. The people of Wisconsin started it when they elected him Governor. Furthermore, it's not like the entire state is against him, as most are not against him. Only some in the state, those who are most adversely affected by his cost-cutting measures, are raising the ruckus. Those who're paying through the nose in taxes while receiving minimal benefit are cheering his cost-cutting measures.



It may interest you to know that only a few powers were given by the U.S. Constitution to the federal government, and that all other powers were reserved to the individual States. Furthermore, ours is a United States, where the states retain their sovereignty, except as specifically provided by the Constitution. That's why individual states can, and should, tell the feds to go fish when the feds overstep the boundaries of their Constitutional mandate, and that is not an infrequent occurrence.

ETA (source): Tenth Amendment to the United States Constitution: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Then again, you might be interested in that at all. Some people are only interested in increasing their slice of the pie.

Thing is, in this case those powers aren't the Governor's, they belong to the state legislature.
 
  • #203


:smile:

I believe any debate concerning motives can be set aside now.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/02/24/wisconsin.budget.prank/index.html?iref=NS1

CNN said:
CNN) -- Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker on Wednesday confirmed that he had been duped by a prank call from a liberal online newspaper editor posing as a billionaire conservative activist.

However, Walker said, the plan he discussed for getting 14 Democrats back into the Capitol to force a quorum on the controversial budget bill was not "a trick," but a plan he has discussed publicly in the past.

Ian Murphy of the news website "Buffalo Beast" wrote on the website that he posed as David Koch, a billionaire political activist, while placing a call to Walker's office and had a candid 20-minute conversation with the governor.

In what the website presented as a transcript of that conversation, Walker talks about an idea of bringing 14 Democratic state senators -- who left the state to prevent a quorum for discussing the budget bill -- back to the assembly to "talk, not negotiate," allow them to recess, and then have the 19 Republican senators declare a quorum.

At that point, presumably, the Republican-led Senate would be able to move forward on the controversial legislation, which would end the state's public union workers' collective bargaining rights on all matters but salaries and wages, and would raise the amount they would have to pay into their pensions and health insurance plans.

The website also claims that Murphy, posing as Koch, suggested "planting some troublemakers" among the people protesting the measure in Madison, the capital, and that Walker replied, in part, "we thought about that." However, in an audio recording of what Murphy claimed was the phone call, only Murphy's voice can be heard.

When asked about the call at a news conference in Madison on Wednesday, Walker appeared only to address the plans for getting the Democrats into the state Capitol and forcing a quorum, including an allusion to a plan to stop senators' automatic payroll deductions for not showing up for "consecutive session days," according to the website.

WHOOPS... I guess he is exactly as stupid as he appears.
 
  • #204
Norman said:
Which is 4% higher than the national average. You need to consider relative differences here since proficiency is a relative metric.

Since Fox (like every other major news outlet) can't be bothered to actually cite their research, I will present something similar. Wisconsin is a well educated state. See this link for the number of high scores on standardized tests by state: http://www.higheredinfo.org/dbrowser/index.php?measure=22
Wisconsin is in the top bracket.

Also see ACT scores by state: http://www.act.org/news/data/09/states.html
In composite score, Wisconsin is ranked 13th in composite score and 14th for reading.

WhoWee said:
After digging through your links.

http://measuringup2008.highereducation.org/print/state_reports/long/WI.pdf

(Page 3) This report gives Wisconsin an "F" for Afforability - 4 year colleges.
[URL]http://measuringup2008.highereducation.org/print/state_reports/long/WI.pdf[/URL]

The link for all of the states:
http://measuringup2008.highereducation.org/states/report_print.php
Since you didn't do it, I did, and it took about 4-5 minutes. I looked up each of the 50 states in that list, to see what grades they got for affordability. Except for CA, which got a C-, every single other state got an F. Sounds like you are making an argument for WI to be more like CA.
 
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  • #205


Gokul43201 said:
Since you didn't do it, I did, and it took about 4-5 minutes. I looked up each of the 50 states in that list, to see what grades they got for affordability. Except for CA, which got a C-, every single other state got an F. Sounds like you are making an argument for WI to be more like CA.

Apparently you already read posts 181, 183, 185, 187, and 189 as well - should have saved you the 4 to 5 minutes - unless your intent was to re-state Norman's point - what is your point? Did you want me to respond other than to say I looked at CA because I knew they are a disaster and OH because it's my home state and WI because it's the subject at hand?
 
  • #206
  • #207


WhoWee said:
Apparently you already read posts 181, 183, 185, 187, and 189 as well - should have saved you the 4 to 5 minutes - unless your intent was to re-state Norman's point - what is your point?
I missed Norman's post. So mine is mostly redundant. You can call it independent verification if you like, in case you were planning to ask: has any other state claimed this?

Nevertheless, the point I was making has been made in Norman's post. WI's affordability grade is hardly an indictment of its system. You'll have to use some other metric to make the case that education in WI is subpar.

PS: But additionally, if you intend to be consistent in your arguments, then your using WI's grade as a damnation of its system requires you to acknowledge that CA's grade demands praise of theirs.
 
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  • #208


WhoWee said:
I heard a tape (on FOX:biggrin:) followed by an interview of the Governor - not exactly a smoking gun - stupid and a waste of time I agree - nothing else (IMO).

I have to disagree on this point; it's a rather amusing turn of tactics that were used to defund Acorn, and recently go after Planned Parenthood. If what the Gov said wasn't a smoking gun, it's more than enough for the preponderance of the evidence in my view. IMO, it's beyond a reasonable doubt as well, and while it isn't criminal, he comes off as a fool and extremely insincere in public. The reaction has been profoundly negative as well, with protests now well outside of the capitol.
 
  • #209


Gokul43201 said:
I missed Norman's post. So mine is mostly redundant. You can call it independent verification if you like, in case you were planning to ask: has any other state claimed this?

Nevertheless, the point I was making has been made in Norman's post. WI's affordability grade is hardly an indictment of its system. You'll have to use some other metric to make the case that education in WI is subpar.

I'm unclear on the education, but I stumbled across this: http://www.dhs.wisconsin.gov/publications/P4/P45718.pdf

I guess drinking in WI isn't just a hobby, it's a pathology.

The only really HARD data I found shows improvement over the last 5 years, but not as a comparison with other states, using AP success as the metric:

http://dpi.state.wi.us/

DPI WI said:
Students increase participation in AP STEM exams


More Wisconsin students are taking Advanced Placement (AP) mathematics and science exams than they did five years ago; an indicator that calls for more science, technology, engineering, and mathematics (STEM) education are resonating with educators, students, and their parents.

Of the more than 30 AP exams offered by the College Board, 11 are classified as STEM. Wisconsin students took 14,820 of these STEM exams in the 2009-10 school year, a 6 percent increase from the prior year and a 36 percent increase over five years. Overall growth of AP exam participation in Wisconsin public schools was 31 percent between the 2005-06 and 2009-10 school years.

"Technical and scientific innovation drive the global economy," said State Superintendent Tony Evers. "The Advanced Placement program is one way our high school students can take rigorous mathematics and science coursework that prepare them for careers in the STEM fields that make these advances."

Over five years, the largest percentage growth in AP STEM exams taken by Wisconsin students was in Environmental Science, Statistics, Physics B, Computer Science A, and Chemistry. Online classes for all of these exams are offered through the Wisconsin Web Academy, a partnership between the Department of Public Instruction and Cooperative Education Service Agency 9.

"It is good news that our students are taking more AP math and science exams," Evers said. "To support our kids in being part of the scientific and technological advances of the future, we must continue efforts to make STEM education available across the state - whether it is through the AP program, dual enrollments, or local partnerships - and we must encourage more students to pursue these studies."

A table showing AP STEM participation for the 2005-06, 2008-09, and 2009-10 school years is available in the complete news release.
 

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