Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, 6 YTBN Shot, Killed In Tuscon AZ

[nismaratwork]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/08/arizona.shooting/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1

U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords among at least 12 people shot at Tucson, Arizona, grocery store, source tells CNN.

Wow. It's confirmed that Ms. Giffords has died. [STRIKE]Was this aimed at her (if anyone knows yet), or was she in the wrong place at the wrong time?[/STRIKE]

This was apparently a constituent meeting, and it sounds as though someone just opened fire, and not without some aim. I hope, as terrible as it sounds, that this was a personal motivation, and not what amounts to an assassination.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The hospital [CNN] is reporting that Giffords is still alive and in surgery. People on the scene report that she was shot in the head at point blank.

 

[nismaratwork]

The hospital [CNN] is reporting that Giffords is still alive and in surgery. People on the scene report that she was shot in the head at point blank.

The hospital spokeswoman has confirmed that Giffords is in surgery with a head wound, which explains the conflict. Obviously the prognosis for a bullet wound to the head, delivered by someone who is confirmed to have rapidly shot and killed at least 5 others, will be quite poor. It seems the shooter(s?) put a further 9+ (12 it seems) into, "Serious or Critical condition," including at least one child.

There are reports of a 21 year old male in custody, but no further details.

Personally, I find it unlikely that someone who was shot at point blank range in the head is likely to survive unless the gun was a low caliber, and she was lucky.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

It appears that a Federal Judge was shot as well [along with one child].

 

[MathAmateur]

I normally don't post anything political or personal on PF using it only for homework type stuff however I need to share this.

I was in the store when the shooting happened. I had walked past the congresswoman and thought for a second that it would be fun to meet her, but the line was too long. I then went in the front door and around customer service to the copy machine. I was in the middle of copying when I heard a series of loud pops. I thought to myself: Why are people setting off firecrackers, don't they know that they could get in trouble with a member of congress so near? Then a couple came in covered with blood and other people rushed by to help.

I continued to copy until I thought that this is stupid, I should either help or get out of the way. I walked over to where the shooting took place. There were people lying around I assume dead and injured. It was just like a scene from the movies. Blood everywhere. There were a lot of people helping and I am not trained medically so I turned around and went out the other door of the store. At this time the first policeman arrived. I told him there had been a shooting and I had not seen anything. He told me to leave so I did and drove home.

 

[LeonhardEuler]

She's been pronounced dead. Also, some details:

Dr. Steven Rayle, a former emergency room doctor who now works in a hospice, said that he had witnessed the shootings. He said the congresswoman was standing behind a table outside the Safeway greeting passersby when the gunman approached her from behind, held a gun about a foot from her head and began firing.

. “He must have got off 20 rounds,” he said. Ms. Giffords slumped to the ground and staff members immediately rushed to her aid, Dr. Rayle said.

Dr. Rayle said he performed CPR on some of the victims. He said one of the victims was a young child and appeared to be in critical condition with a gunshot wound.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2011/01/murder-in-arizona-live-blogging.html

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I normally don't post anything political or personal on PF using it only for homework type stuff however I need to share this.

I was in the store when the shooting happened. I had walked past the congresswoman and thought for a second that it would be fun to meet her, but the line was too long. I then went in the front door and around customer service to the copy machine. I was in the middle of copying when I heard a series of loud pops. I thought to myself: Why are people setting off firecrackers, don't they know that they could get in trouble with a member of congress so near? Then a couple came in covered with blood and other people rushed by to help.

I continued to copy until I thought that this is stupid, I should either help or get out of the way. I walked over to where the shooting took place. There were people lying around I assume dead and injured. It was just like a scene from the movies. Blood everywhere. There were a lot of people helping and I am not trained medically so I turned around and went out the other door of the store. At this time the first policeman arrived. I told him there had been a shooting and I had not seen anything. He told me to leave so I did and drove home.

Wow! What a terrible thing to see.

How are you doing?

 

[Pengwuino]

Every news channel says she has been shot, but have said that earlier reports of her dying were inaccurate or that they may have been able to bring her back to life. Let's hope everyone who can make it will make it.

EDIT: An Arizona state senator being interviewed says that she is responsive at the hospital.

 

[LeonhardEuler]

I normally don't post anything political or personal on PF using it only for homework type stuff however I need to share this.

I was in the store when the shooting happened. I had walked past the congresswoman and thought for a second that it would be fun to meet her, but the line was too long. I then went in the front door and around customer service to the copy machine. I was in the middle of copying when I heard a series of loud pops. I thought to myself: Why are people setting off firecrackers, don't they know that they could get in trouble with a member of congress so near? Then a couple came in covered with blood and other people rushed by to help.

I continued to copy until I thought that this is stupid, I should either help or get out of the way. I walked over to where the shooting took place. There were people lying around I assume dead and injured. It was just like a scene from the movies. Blood everywhere. There were a lot of people helping and I am not trained medically so I turned around and went out the other door of the store. At this time the first policeman arrived. I told him there had been a shooting and I had not seen anything. He told me to leave so I did and drove home.

That's horrendous. There was nothing else you could have done, though. I can't even imagine what you must be feeling now.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

CNN now reports that 18 people were shot.

 

[nismaratwork]

I normally don't post anything political or personal on PF using it only for homework type stuff however I need to share this.

I was in the store when the shooting happened. I had walked past the congresswoman and thought for a second that it would be fun to meet her, but the line was too long. I then went in the front door and around customer service to the copy machine. I was in the middle of copying when I heard a series of loud pops. I thought to myself: Why are people setting off firecrackers, don't they know that they could get in trouble with a member of congress so near? Then a couple came in covered with blood and other people rushed by to help.

I continued to copy until I thought that this is stupid, I should either help or get out of the way. I walked over to where the shooting took place. There were people lying around I assume dead and injured. It was just like a scene from the movies. Blood everywhere. There were a lot of people helping and I am not trained medically so I turned around and went out the other door of the store. At this time the first policeman arrived. I told him there had been a shooting and I had not seen anything. He told me to leave so I did and drove home.

Damn... I'm sorry that you were there... take care of yourself. You never know when the reality of the situation will hit, or if it already has.

Ivan: Wow, this guy either sprayed the crowd or was an exceptional marksman. I hope he appreciates the irony when he's put against a wall and shot in the heart.

 

[Pengwuino]

The Federal Judge, John Roll, was killed it appears according to the latest reports.

They have a suspect in custody as well.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Given that MathAmateur reported the sound of firecrackers, it was probably a small-caliber pistol. While is isn't likely to survive a head shot at point blank, the small caliber may give Rep Giffords a fighting chance.

 

[nismaratwork]

The Federal Judge, John Roll, was killed it appears according to the latest reports.

Oh man, the FBI is going to be absolutely foaming at the mouth, and I don't blame them. I'm not going to speculate, because it could be a stalker or virtually anything, but I WANT to know what motivated someone to do this, or at least how they justify it.


I will note, Fox News is resorting that the shooter is an Afghan War veteran, 22 yr old white male.


Pengwuino: Someone who essentially dead can appear "responsive" due to brain stem response. A point blank shot to the head, which is being reported, with a gun that killed and wounded so many others seems unlikely to be low caliber/low speed.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Oh man, the FBI is going to be absolutely foaming at the mouth, and I don't blame them. I'm not going to speculate, because it could be a stalker or virtually anything, but I WANT to know what motivated someone to do this, or at least how they justify it.


I will note, Fox News is resorting that the shooter is an Afghan War veteran, 22 yr old white male.


Pengwuino: Someone who essentially dead can appear "responsive" due to brain stem response. A point blank shot to the head, which is being reported, with a gun that killed and wounded so many others seems unlikely to be low caliber/low speed.

Have you ever heard a large-caliber gun fired indoors? There is no mistaking the difference between something like a .44, and a .22. A .44 doesn't sound like a firecracker. I would expect it to be either a .22 or a .380. Also, if it had been something like a .44, esp at point blank. it is highly unlikely she would be in surgery.

 

[nismaratwork]

Given that MathAmateur reported the sound of firecrackers, it was probably a small-caliber pistol. While is isn't likely to survive a head shot at point blank, the small caliber may give Rep Giffords a fighting chance.

I wish I cold agree...

First, wounding that many people critically is unlikely to be achieved with a small caliber pistol, unless he used and discarded that. That seems unlikely in my view. I'd also point out that you do NOT want to be shot in the head with a .22; you get penetration of the skull (unless the shooter strikes the sagittal crest, then you have a chance), but not an exit. The result is predictable, and horrific.

Jared Lauder is the name of the shooter apparently, according to Fox News.

 

[nismaratwork]

Have you ever heard a large-caliber gun fired indoors? There is no mistaking the difference between something like a .44, and a .22. A .44 doesn't sound like a firecracker. I would expect it to be either a .22 or a .380.

I have, but I suspect that this person used an assault rifle or submachine gun. In that case I would expect small caliber/high speed; NATO standard. Knowing AZ, it was probably a modified AR-15, but who knows.

Anyway, I've heard gunfire, indoors, outdoors, and in every caliber described. The sound of a .22 is slight, a .380 by contrast is monstrous btw... totally different.

 

[nismaratwork]

Confirmed as of now, by the hospital: the child died.

edit: Also confirmed: Giffords shot through and through the brain. Forget .22's

 

[Ivan Seeking]

An official news conference with the hospital: Giffords is alive and he believes she has a good chance of recovery.

The child is dead.

 

[JaredJames]

I normally don't post anything political or personal on PF using it only for homework type stuff however I need to share this.

I was in the store when the shooting happened. I had walked past the congresswoman and thought for a second that it would be fun to meet her, but the line was too long. I then went in the front door and around customer service to the copy machine. I was in the middle of copying when I heard a series of loud pops. I thought to myself: Why are people setting off firecrackers, don't they know that they could get in trouble with a member of congress so near? Then a couple came in covered with blood and other people rushed by to help.

I continued to copy until I thought that this is stupid, I should either help or get out of the way. I walked over to where the shooting took place. There were people lying around I assume dead and injured. It was just like a scene from the movies. Blood everywhere. There were a lot of people helping and I am not trained medically so I turned around and went out the other door of the store. At this time the first policeman arrived. I told him there had been a shooting and I had not seen anything. He told me to leave so I did and drove home.

Don't want to attack your story, but there's a shooting and they tell a potential witness to go home - regardless of you saying what you had / had not seen?

 

[nismaratwork]

An official news conference with the hospital: Giffords is alive and he believes she has a good chance of recovery.

The child is dead.

What's a good recovery from a through-through shot to the head, especially with a high velocity round (cavitation)?

For the child, and all those dead: Anima eius et animae omnium fidelium defunctorum per Dei misericordiam requiescant in pace.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I have, but I suspect that this person used an assault rifle or submachine gun. In that case I would expect small caliber/high speed; NATO standard. Knowing AZ, it was probably a modified AR-15, but who knows.

An AR15 is a small-caliber weapon.

Anyway, I've heard gunfire, indoors, outdoors, and in every caliber described. The sound of a .22 is slight, a .380 by contrast is monstrous btw... totally different.

I think you are confusing a .380 with a .38. Relatively speaking, a .380 doesn't have much fire power.

 

[rhody]

I saw this thread, and then to have an eye witness to it, MathAmateur, I hope you are alright, it would have shaken me to the core, of that I am sure.

The thumbnail below was taken in http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/06/AR2006070601640.html" , Mark Kelly who I now believe is her astronaut husband. Let's hope that MathAmateur's hearing and Ivan's assessment of it are correct and it was a small low caliber handgun, and that Rep Gifford's reported death is in error and that more of the remaining people who were shot survive. On further reflection, this is going to have a chilling effect on the world or politics, that is not a good either.

Rhody...

P.S. Edit

From this news release: http://www.voanews.com/english/news/US-Lawmaker-Shot-in-Arizona-113135089.html"

Gifford's words:

“I am a third generation southern Arizonian and I went off to school, was working for Price Waterhouse in New York City, and was asked to come home to run my family's tire and automotive business," said Giffords. "I first got involved with politics because I was frustrated when I was opening up my newspaper every single morning and seeing my great state of Arizona continuing to be at the bottom, whether it be poor-people funding, or mental health funding, or making sure that we could preserve our beautiful open spaces and in life you can either complain about something or you can try to fix it so I decided to run for political office.”

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The hospital reports that Giffords is responsive! Wow. It seems the bullet went clean through.

 

[JaredJames]

Well, regardless of what type of gun it was, it's a terrible tragedy and hardly a good advert for allowing people to own guns.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Well, regardless of what type of gun it was, it's a terrible tragedy and hardly a good advert for allowing people to own guns.

Please don't start down that road.

He could have just just as easily set off a pipe bomb or used any of a dozen other options. Beyond that, it is already illegal to shoot people. So much for the law.

 

[nismaratwork]

An AR15 is a small-caliber weapon.



I think you are confusing a .380 with a .38. Relatively speaking, a .380 doesn't have much fire power.

You were correct about the confusion, but not about which. I was thinking: .308 winchester, not a .38 or .380.

Anyway, I was wrong about that, but I think this is enough talk of ballistics. My experience is that the outcome is often poor for a high velocity round to the head, although a through-through is a FAR better outcome than the alternative. Will she live? GOK. Will she ever be the same? Not a chance.

 

[nismaratwork]

Please don't start down that road. I couldn't disagree more and this is not the thread for it.

He could have just just as easily set off a pipe bomb and used any of a dozen other options.

Agreed, and I'd rather be shot than bombed if I get a vote.

Jared: I usually agree with you, and I think AZ takes gun love to a fetishistic extreme, but killing a crowd doesn't take guns. Point blank gunshot also = ability to use any weapon.


NOTE: She is following commands, which I find... amazing. I can't believe that she'd be capable of that, and with so little swelling. Maybe the cavity is allowing for the brain to avoid the usual herniation, and it was an incredibly non-critical region. WOW.

 

[Pengwuino]

From everything I'm hearing about the guy and the people who were shot, I wonder if the judge was the target.

 

[JaredJames]

He could have just just as easily set off a pipe bomb or used any of a dozen other options.

Not so. In comparison to others, it is an easy to access and particularly effective 'choice' within the USA.

Regardless, there are certain events which I don't give sympathy to. Aside from the child, it applies in this case.

I'm not trying to start a debate, I don't want to discuss it. But if people are going to come and give their opinion of "oh how sad", I feel it's only fair I give mine (providing I don't degrade the discussion to "they deserved it" or likewise - I don't think they deserved it before anyone comes at me with that).

Yes it's sad, yes it's a tragic loss of life. But I can't feel sympathy that reason alone.

 

[nismaratwork]

Not so. In comparison to others, it is an easy to access and particularly effective 'choice' within the USA.

Regardless, there are certain events which I don't give sympathy to. Aside from the child, it applies in this case.

I'm not trying to start a debate, I don't want to discuss it. But if people are going to come and give their opinion of "oh how sad", I feel it's only fair I give mine (providing I don't degrade the discussion to "they deserved it" or likewise - I don't think they deserved it before anyone comes at me with that).

Yes it's sad, yes it's a tragic loss of life. But I can't feel sympathy that reason alone.

Jared, if you wanted to take that whole crowd out, the most efficient way would be to hijack a large vehicle such as a dump-truck, and mow them down. In the confusion, you could then attack with knives, or leave an explosive and escape. In fact, for this kind of attack, a gun is simply the chosen tool of someone who want to be LOUD, to be heard and seen, and to use a tool that's familiar.

 

[nismaratwork]

From everything I'm hearing about the guy and the people who were shot, I wonder if the judge was the target.

We may never know, but certainly we won't know anytime soon.

 

[rhody]

You were correct about the confusion, but not about which. I was thinking: .308 winchester, not a .38 or .380.

Anyway, I was wrong about that, but I think this is enough talk of ballistics. My experience is that the outcome is often poor for a high velocity round to the head, although a through-through is a FAR better outcome than the alternative. Will she live? GOK. Will she ever be the same? Not a chance.

nismara, Ivan,

If it was an an AR15 versus a cheap small caliber low velocity 22 handgun, puzzling because handguns do not hold 15 - 20 round clips if reporting is correct, unless multiple pistols were used, the http://www.proguns.com/ar15-ammunition.asp" round that the AR is capable if firing is high velocity, although the bullet size is quite small, a bit larger than a 22 round. I target practiced with a few of AR15's in my youth and it can do a lot of damage, especially with hollow point ammunition, because a hollow point mushrooms and creates a jagged projectile and then starts to tumble in its target when hitting something hard.

Rhody...

from the NATO link:

The first type of ammunition, 5.56x45mm, is the U.S. military designation of ammo for their AR 15, which they renamed the M16. Although the 5.56 and the .223 have identical dimensions, the 5.56 is usually designed for higher pressures and velocities and is generally considered to be unsafe to shoot from the civilian AR 15.

 

[nismaratwork]

nismara, Ivan,

If it was an an AR15 versus a cheap small caliber low velocity 22 handgun, puzzling because handguns do not hold 15 - 20 round clips if reporting is correct, unless multiple pistols were used, the http://www.proguns.com/ar15-ammunition.asp" round that the AR is capable if firing is high velocity, although the bullet size is quite small, a bit larger than a 22 round. I target practiced with a few of AR15's in my youth and it can do a lot of damage, especially with hollow point ammunition, because a hollow point mushrooms and creates a jagged projectile and then starts to tumble in its target when hitting something hard.

Rhody...

from the NATO link:

It's overwhelmingly likely that it was a modified weapon, or illegal to begin with. A modified AR-15 is for all intents and purposes, an M-16. The small, high velocity rounds are designed to defeat body armor.

Given that 17 people are confirmed shot, unless this was a modified pistol of extreme rarity, and an EXCEPTIONAL marksman, this was an assault rifle, or possibly and less likely, a submachine gun.

btw: Low velocity, high caliber strategy: punch holes.
med vel/med cal: mushroom
low vel/low cal: tumble
high vel/low cal: over-penetrate and cause massive cavitation, fragmentation wounds, and tumbling.

example of a .308 hunting round, which has a large wound track than you'd find in this case. [URL]http://www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/308%20Winchester.jpg[/quote][/URL]

This is the last I'll say on ballistics. This is a tragedy, and although I can't help but have a detached element, I think this is enough.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

A terrible and horrible tragedy...

And serious guys – why all this ballistic talk...?? WTF is going on? This will keep me awake tonight:

http://www.boingboing.net/2011/01/08/congresswoman-gabrie.html"