Fixing the Gulf oil spill problem

[WmCElliott]

It seems to me that BP's first idea of putting a big funnel over the top of the leak was a good start, they just didn't expect so much methane hydrate slush to clog the funnel.

What they need to do is to build a simple heat exchanger inside the funnel and pump warm Gulf water through it to keep the slush from forming.

Anybody out there have any better ideas or improvements to this one?

 

[blimkie.k]

My idea was similar to that but a massive concrete block with a hollow bevel type shape in the bottom which would lead to a small cylinder and a valve on the top to attach a pumping hose. The hollow bevel would create a nice resovoir to pump oil from. The concrete could have a rubber base to create a tight seal and controlled decent to the bottom buy attaching an appropriate amount of buoys. However, I guess this type of apparatus would still be subject to those ice crystals that ruined the other attempt.

This whole thing is really starting to bother me, its been a month and no solution. You think a huge oil company like BP would have a team of engineers and problem solvers or hire a crew that could solve this ordeal.

 

[xxChrisxx]

My idea was similar to that but a massive concrete block with a hollow bevel type shape in the bottom which would lead to a small cylinder and a valve on the top to attach a pumping hose. The hollow bevel would create a nice resovoir to pump oil from. The concrete could have a rubber base to create a tight seal and controlled decent to the bottom buy attaching an appropriate amount of buoys. However, I guess this type of apparatus would still be subject to those ice crystals that ruined the other attempt.

This whole thing is really starting to bother me, its been a month and no solution. You think a huge oil company like BP would have a team of engineers and problem solvers or hire a crew that could solve this ordeal.

They are doing a well kill as we speak.

 

[stewartcs]

You think a huge oil company like BP would have a team of engineers and problem solvers or hire a crew that could solve this ordeal.

They have around 20,000 people working on this project at the moment.

CS

 

[PaulS1950]

This should have been solved a long time ago. It would be a simple matter to use a valve attached to a piece of pipe the right size and fit it to the pipe at the well with wedge blocks and bolts with the valve open and then once attached the valve could be closed. This type of wedge clamping is not at all uncommon in the hydraulic and high pressure steam industry.
Since the pipe is standard sizes for well heads it seem rediculous that they don't have devices assembled and in stock for just this kind of event.

 

[mheslep]

This should have been solved a long time ago. It would be a simple matter to use a valve attached to a piece of pipe the right size and fit it to the pipe at the well with wedge blocks and bolts with the valve open and then once attached the valve could be closed. This type of wedge clamping is not at all uncommon in the hydraulic and high pressure steam industry.
Since the pipe is standard sizes for well heads it seem rediculous that they don't have devices assembled and in stock for just this kind of event.

Is it also standard to pump ice?

 

[mheslep]

It seems to me that BP's first idea of putting a big funnel over the top of the leak was a good start, they just didn't expect so much methane hydrate slush to clog the funnel.

What they need to do is to build a simple heat exchanger inside the funnel and pump warm Gulf water through it to keep the slush from forming.

Anybody out there have any better ideas or improvements to this one?

You'd have to heat maybe a couple thousand feet of pipe/funnel, creating a water column over 20 degrees C isolated somehow from the surrounding water at 4C to avoid methane hydrates forming at that pressure. And I don't see a simple way of stopping the flow if necessary, even temporarily, without immediately creating an ice dam.

 

[stewartcs]

This should have been solved a long time ago. It would be a simple matter to use a valve attached to a piece of pipe the right size and fit it to the pipe at the well with wedge blocks and bolts with the valve open and then once attached the valve could be closed. This type of wedge clamping is not at all uncommon in the hydraulic and high pressure steam industry.
Since the pipe is standard sizes for well heads it seem rediculous that they don't have devices assembled and in stock for just this kind of event.

Have you even seen what the subsea architecture looks like? Where exactly would this device attach? The stack is currently sitting on top of the wellhead. A bent riser is sitting on top of the LMRP. If they remove any of those without killing the well it will be flowing wide open.

CS

 

[Arizona]

I wonder if they have thought about a series of detonations? As soon as this happened I thought they should do whatever it took to stop the leak ASAP like implode the well and redrill it if necessary. I felt that they have been complacent until now.

I don't know all the stats regarding the well, but I know they have GPS of the well. A rough example, the well is 1500 m deep. Drill many small diameter holes lined with explosive 50-100 m around the well. Use the series of detonations to implode the well hole an cover it with ruble. They can then redrill the well or drill a relief.

I can see a new show on the History Channel, "Life after Humans"... 50 years after humans, all offshore oil rigs fall into the oceans killing 50% of the marine life and turns much the oceans blue water into a dark mix of sweet crude.

Pretty sad.

 

[WmCElliott]

The "Top Kill" method they tried earlier today was precisely what you described, and it resulted (so far) in opening up more leaks from the one well (as I'd have guessed).

Their best bet is to make a *bigger* funnel (now needed to be bigger to cover all the new leaks) and include a heat exchanger inside the funnel to prevent methane hydrate from clogging the funnel, with the heat source being the warm Gulf surface water pumped down to the heat exchanger.

 

[stewartcs]

I wonder if they have thought about a series of detonations? As soon as this happened I thought they should do whatever it took to stop the leak ASAP like implode the well and redrill it if necessary. I felt that they have been complacent until now.

I don't know all the stats regarding the well, but I know they have GPS of the well. A rough example, the well is 1500 m deep. Drill many small diameter holes lined with explosive 50-100 m around the well. Use the series of detonations to implode the well hole an cover it with ruble. They can then redrill the well or drill a relief.

I can see a new show on the History Channel, "Life after Humans"... 50 years after humans, all offshore oil rigs fall into the oceans killing 50% of the marine life and turns much the oceans blue water into a dark mix of sweet crude.

Pretty sad.

They are drilling a relief well now. As soon as it intersects the old well bore they can kill it. No need to blow it up (which may or may not work but is extremely risky).

CS

 

[Pattonias]

Does the extreme pressure somehow prevent them from using explosives in the surrounding sea-bed to collapse the well?

 

[Arizona]

I am aware of the relief well. I have not heard of ideas regarding detonations of the sub sea architecture or an implosion of the well head. What are the risks besides letting the oil leak like it has been for the last month? How long until they can utilize their heat exchanger method?

What I am looking for a quick fix until the relief well could be drilled... detonations could have already been performed weeks ago or weeks after the accident happened.

I wish they would release some stats on the problem (i.e. map/diagram of the well, P's, T's, and V's, effluent components, surrounding material, etc.)

 

[Arizona]

Does the extreme pressure somehow prevent them from using explosives in the surrounding sea-bed to collapse the well?

I almost feel that the extreme pressures would allow for more controlled explosions or implosion from the detonations...

 

[blimkie.k]

They are doing a well kill as we speak.

Yea shortly after I posted I read some news that top kill was going quite successful. I

They have around 20,000 people working on this project at the moment.

CS

My wording was a bit off there, I didn't mean to sound doubt full of there team. My point was more of how long it had taken them to fix the problem. At first it sounds pretty simplistic but I looked into it more and became aware of the complex side of it.

Now I am wondering about the clean up and how far it has spread. Is there an estimated clean up time? Also is there a risk of it spreading east out of the gulf and being distributed along the east coast by the gulf stream?

 

[WmCElliott]

If you do a Google search on "BP Spill" you can find a website where you can e-mail them with ideas. The link appears to be to Red Adair's company. Red Adair's company is the best in the business, they were the ones who were called into put out all the oil fires that Saddam Hussein lit during the first Gulf war, and they finished well-before their schedule. (Red Adair himself was the subject of a John Wayne movie.) BP is doing things the right way, they've got the top people working the problem.

 

[rewebster]

I was wondering if they inflated some type of fluid filled balloon or a series of them down in the pipe could be done, sort or like putting a stint in an artery;

or exploding some containers of foam (like that 'Great Stuff' expanding foam for home insulation)---that stuff expands quite a bit and sticks to anything/everything...

 

[stewartcs]

I was wondering if they inflated some type of fluid filled balloon or a series of them down in the pipe could be done, sort or like putting a stint in an artery;

or exploding some containers of foam (like that 'Great Stuff' expanding foam for home insulation)---that stuff expands quite a bit and sticks to anything/everything...

Unlikely. The pressure would most likely blow it out. Plus there is the problem of getting anything into the wellbore. Until they remove the bent riser the bore is inaccessible. Removing the LMRP and either capping it or funneling it would be the best option.

I recommend removing the LMRP all together and trying to land another one. It would be helpful if BP gave more details as to the state of the bore.

CS

 

[jreelawg]

What if you had a tapered projectile made of tungsten, about 20' long, with a diameter just slightly larger than the hole, and shot it deep down into the well with an extremely high powered rail gun.

 

[OmCheeto]

I actually liked the following solution best, as a quick and dirty duct tape fix to at least contain the oil until they can shut down the well.

...
A flexable walled tube of some kind of fabric and large enough to allow for expansion at the surface of the gulf, might work. Supporting guide cables held in place on the bottom, by concrete pads, and a large floating ring at the surface.
The walls would be flexable and would not accumalate any kind of buildup.
...

 

[mheslep]

Unlikely. The pressure would most likely blow it out. Plus there is the problem of getting anything into the wellbore. Until they remove the bent riser the bore is inaccessible. Removing the LMRP and either capping it or funneling it would be the best option. ...

Is capping an option? How, against the well pressure?

 

[jreelawg]

I suspect that cutting the pipe off clean will make estimating the flow a lot easier.

 

[stewartcs]

Is capping an option? How, against the well pressure?

They would have to remove the LMRP. Once removed there will be a mandrel exposed that they can land another device with a collet type connector on and latch up to it. In other words they could basically land another new LMRP on it with the riser attached and cap the well.

The new device would be open to allow the flow to go up the riser until latched.

CS

 

[stewartcs]

I suspect that cutting the pipe off clean will make estimating the flow a lot easier.

Probably not since they aren't sure what exactly is obstructing the wellbore and they aren't sure what the pressure is.

CS

 

[RonL]

Another area of effort, needs to be recovery of the oil before it hits the shoreline and mixes with sand or other bulky material.
Very shallow draft floats with lots of surface area that can support the weight of some equipment for skimming oil into a seperator, a fresh air supply and anything else to sustain two or three people.
Develop a system for paying a fair price for each barrel of oil recovered and places to handle the exchange of barrels, or a larger boat making pickup routes as close as possible, all along the coast line.
Put people to work doing something to save the land and at the same time a method of income to those that can do the work.
.
Safety by all means yes, but don't eliminate the large majority of workers that can do the job.

 

[RonL]

They are drilling a relief well now. As soon as it intersects the old well bore they can kill it. No need to blow it up (which may or may not work but is extremely risky).

CS

I agree and think that any plan that might block access to the points of leakage, should not be considered.

 

[RonL]

In hope that someone might see our comments, I feel compelled to express myself as if I am part of the think tank of engineers working around the clock to find solutions that might have some merit.
This morning the thought came to me, there are mountains of empty shipping containers around the ports along the gulf coast.
These containers might serve well in the design of a very large containment ring for holding oil at the surface of the gulf. My thoughts include a two method system for holding air inside them, so that they float on end (about 1/3 above water surface and 2/3 under) much the same as a fishing bobber.
A single or double row ring can be created by binding them together with a flexable connection, wave action would be absorbed by several containers and no single connection would be overstressed.
An inside wall of fabric would hold oil in place, while it is being pumped into barges or ships.

To me it seems more important to control the oil being released.


After seeing a PBS document about whales confining fish inside a curtain of air bubbles, might this same principle apply to guiding the oil to the surface and inside such a ring as I have described ?

Just a few thoughts.

RonL

 

[OmCheeto]

Yesterdays news from the front line:

...sent to us on Sunday, May 30th.

Hey everyone. Well the Top Kill Op did not work because the mud was just shooting back out of the damaged top part of the Blow Out Preventer (BOP) and the crushed 21” riser. We are now on our way back to the dock. They have plans to try cutting the 21” riser off and replacing the top portion of the BOP with a new valve and pipeline to the surface in the next week or two. If that works then we will be heading back out there to do the Top Kill Op all over again. If this does not work then they are talking about building another dome to cover it. The last one they built formed hydro crystals inside of it because of the freezing temperatures at 5000 feet. After the dome and pipeline froze up and got clogged, the whole thing just lifted off the sea floor like a hot air balloon. Needless to say it was a total failure and a bad design. They are talking about installing ethanol injectors throughout the interior of the next dome. Ethanol will prevent the ice crystals from forming I guess. I designed another dome concept for the BP engineers to look at and I spoke to them about it yesterday. They thought it was a very good idea and said they would definitely consider it. It involves a double walled dome enclosure with industrial electrical heating coils built into the walls and four giant heated suction piles welded onto the four corners of the dome. Once it is lowered over the BOP the water is sucked out of the suction piles which will cause the entire enclosure to sink down into the sub-sea floor several feet. A water tight/oil tight seal will be maintained as long as suction is maintained by the rig above. Having the entire enclosure and the riser line heated would give them the ability not only to seal the leak but to pump the oil out of the well without freeze up. I hope they consider it if the BOP fix does not work. Here is the drawing I made for them on Excel.

All my love

RonL, I'll relay your idea via the friend of a friend of a friend back to the front line.

 

[RonL]

Yesterdays news from the front line:

RonL, I'll relay your idea via the friend of a friend of a friend back to the front line.

Thanks Om,

I just did a quick calculation, and a 10 mile dia. ring (single row) would require 22,440 boxes , but then this is a big disaster.
I guess the big concerne would be can the confinement area be in a location that would not interfere with the operations of killing the well or bringing it back into control ?

Do you or anyone have thoughts about the tube tunnel, using air bubbles ?

RonL

 

[OmCheeto]

Thanks Om,

I just did a quick calculation, and a 10 mile dia. ring (single row) would require 22,440 boxes , but then this is a big disaster.
I guess the big concerne would be can the confinement area be in a location that would not interfere with the operations of killing the well or bringing it back into control ?

Do you or anyone have thoughts about the tube tunnel, using air bubbles ?

RonL

Did you not get my PM?

And what's this about air bubbles?

I don't think a surface containment device the size of which you are talking about is necessary. The opinion on leak rate ranges from 500,000 to 4.2 million gallons of oil per day.http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/horizon-oil-spill.html" , a containment area 100 feet across and maybe 20 feet deep would be all that is needed. IMHO of course.

ps. The non-water permeable ripstop material I mentioned is only http://www.seattlefabrics.com/nylons.html#1.9 oz unctd RS". So a 60" wide pair of the materials, sewn into a tube, at 1 mile length, would only cost ~$25,000. Must less costly than the nearly $1 billion dollars that spent so far.

And it comes in Royal, so I'm sure the queen would approve.

 

[RonL]

Did you not get my PM?

And what's this about air bubbles?

I don't think a surface containment device the size of which you are talking about is necessary. The opinion on leak rate ranges from 500,000 to 4.2 million gallons of oil per day.http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/horizon-oil-spill.html" , a containment area 100 feet across and maybe 20 feet deep would be all that is needed. IMHO of course.

ps. The non-water permeable ripstop material I mentioned is only http://www.seattlefabrics.com/nylons.html#1.9 oz unctd RS". So a 60" wide pair of the materials, sewn into a tube, at 1 mile length, would only cost ~$25,000. Must less costly than the nearly $1 billion dollars that spent so far.

And it comes in Royal, so I'm sure the queen would approve.

Just opened your PM,

Air bubbles, In post #27 I mentioned seeing a PBS.org document showing whales diving down and swimming in circles while they blew out large amounts of air, as the air moved upward it formed a circular wall of air bubbles that enclosed large schools of fish. Two or three whales provided the air, while others would swim up the center of the ring of bubbles and litterly devour large schools of fish.
One of the most amazing things I have watched.

Ron

 

[RonL]

Om,
If a tube of ripstop material is considered, I would think a bottom pressure of close to 2,500 psi would expand to such degree that near the surface, a velocity and frictional drag would be tremendous. Making a bottom opening of 15 or 20 feet in diameter, I think a surface opening might need to be near 100' or more. But then my smarts are not very great.

Kids are here, got to go.

Ron

 

[mheslep]

They would have to remove the LMRP. Once removed there will be a mandrel exposed that they can land another device with a collet type connector on and latch up to it. In other words they could basically land another new LMRP on it with the riser attached and cap the well.

The new device would be open to allow the flow to go up the riser until latched.

CS

Ok, that appears logical to me. I haven't heard much play on capping, so perhaps there are some other issues. For instance, maybe BP et al no longer thinks the BOP can handle a full 5000 PSI (or whatever it is) after the explosion, plus some hammer over pressure in the process of placing the cap. So instead, I speculate, that they prefer a continuing flow solution.

 

[OmCheeto]

Om,
If a tube of ripstop material is considered, I would think a bottom pressure of close to 2,500 psi would expand to such degree that near the surface, a velocity and frictional drag would be tremendous. Making a bottom opening of 15 or 20 feet in diameter, I think a surface opening might need to be near 100' or more. But then my smarts are not very great.

Kids are here, got to go.

Ron

I'm not very concerned about the well pressure. Once the oil escapes the steel pipe, it's at sea pressure. I don't know what the compressibility of crude oil is, so I don't know how much it will expand, but I would imagine it would be very small. Gas evolution might be a problem though. I think that's what started this whole mess.

hmm... a 120" circumference pipe would contain the flow at...

2*pi*r = c
r = 120/(2*pi) = 19.1 inches
a=pi*r^2=1146in^2=7.96ft^2
7.48gal/ft^3
49 gallons/second of flow yields:​

0.823 feet per second.

The head is at around 1 mile depth, so the oil would reach the end of the fabric pipe in...

(5280 feet)/(0.823 ft/sec)=6416 seconds
3600seconds/hour
6416/3600=...​

about 1 hour and 47 minutes.

 

[WmCElliott]

I'm gratified that their next funnel will be heated, I suppose electric heaters solve the insulation of the warm surface water for a mile through cold water.

BP does have a website dedicated to ideas for fixing the problem, and it seems to connect you to Red Adair's company directly.