Airplane Landing Questions -- How can the pilot see the ground?

[FactChecker]

Hey. I just read the space shuttle can land by gliding only, can't a commercial plane do that too?

Yes, but it has to be high enough to be in range of a runway and be able to line up on the runway. (I am not considering any other type of landing, which have serious dangers.)

The main safety factor is having one engine running. That would allow a commercial airplane to fly to the nearest acceptable runway and land.

 

[seazal]

Yes, but it has to be high enough to be in range of a runway and be able to line up on the runway. (I am not considering any other type of landing, which have serious dangers.)

When gliding airplanes without any fuel left (this can be done with any airplane from propeller based to jet engined?), do you use normal landing angle? or do you put the nose down? How to initiate gliding and how is the airfoil dynamics since thrust is losing fast?

 

[CWatters]

I have flown in many aircraft types all over the world and have about 100 hours solo in gliders.

There are no simulators you can afford that will give you a realistic feeling of landing.

There are no aircraft (yet) that will prevent a determined pilot from deliberately crashing.

 

[FactChecker]

When gliding airplanes without any fuel left (this can be done with any airplane from propeller based to jet engined?), do you use normal landing angle? or do you put the nose down? How to initiate gliding and how is the airfoil dynamics since thrust is losing fast?

Technicalities. I don't know much about that. A pilot can answer that. I know that the control surfaces should work and that the pilot would set the angle of attack for the maximum range. When he reaches the runway and is lined up correctly, it would be fairly routine and practiced. But the main thing about gliding is that it gives time to restart engines.

 

[FactChecker]

Please watch before continuing. It will answer many of your fears.

 

[seazal]

Please watch before continuing. It will answer many of your fears.

What flight simulator software did the pilot use in landing without power?

By the way, note GPS can work inside airplane. I always use the software "Maps.me" in android cellphone or apple iphones to track my flight real time while on air. In the Malaysian Airliner which was lost. Had a passenger used the application, he could have learned the plane was flying way off course, and could get the attention of the attendants. If the suicidal pilot murdered the co-pilot, and the attendants and passengers could overpower him. And no one was left flying the plane, all the knowledge you gain in flight simulator may just save the day, isn't it? So I'll master the art of landing without power in X-Plane software I'm downloading now.

Look. For normal citizens. This would be crazy. But for us technical people who want to understand every Newtonian and Quantum Gravity thing, we need to get to the bottom of every details. That includes flying the airplane that would take you to LHC. Everytime I was on an airplane. I was so glad Newton was correct. And after landing, then focus on quantum gravity or the like and wonder whether Einstein or Dirac was totally correct and how to combine their theories.

 

[FactChecker]

What flight simulator software did the pilot use in landing without power?

That was a training simulator for professional pilots. It costs $millions. The cockpit, controls, handling, and behavior are all realistic enough to learn how to fly that particular plane in all kinds of situations.

 

[Tiran]

I'm a pilot. There is no real difference between gliding and powered flight. Both are a balance between thrust, lift, gravity and angle of attack. If you are going 500 knots and lose all power, you can maintain altitude by trading speed until you get close to stall, or you can maintain speed and lower the nose to use gravity to provide "thrust".

Most landings could be performed power off, but power allows you to fly the plane slower than it would want to glide at that sink rate. Those speeds are known as the "area of reverse command", where you are using more power than you would at either your max range or minimum power speeds.

You do not need to pull up the nose to land a plane - navy carrier landings take place at approach AOA. Flaring during landing is a feel thing, and trades off some velocity and descent rate for increased nose up without as much AOA problems because of ground effect.

Helicopters can also glide.

 

[seazal]

That was a training simulator for professional pilots. It costs $millions. The cockpit, controls, handling, and behavior are all realistic enough to learn how to fly that particular plane in all kinds of situations.

When I was using Microsoft Flight Simulator about 20 years ago. I had a very detail flight manual (like in real airplane). I also have the Thrust master flight control system for the F-15. I just tried the X-plane now. It uses mouse to control. I wonder if it has detail manual like in MS Flight Simulator way back and even special flight control system add-ons. I remember whenever the F-15 stalls, I need to direct the nose down to increase speed.

I guess I need to be familiar with these to gain the confidence for long distance trip abroad. My farthest trip is only 3 hours. Not 10 hours or more.

 

[jim hardy]

fear of flying ?
invest forty bucks and join Experimental Aircraft Association.
https://www.eaa.org/eaa
that's cheaper than an hour with a 'shrink" .
Find your local chapter and meet some homebuilders
you might get 'the bug'

VW engine and plywood homebuilt

http://www.evansair.com/

IMHO safer than an airliner because they stall around 40mph so if you keep it right side up you'll likely survive the impact
a friend of mine stalled his into a cornfield.
The farmer showed up with his tractor and pulled the plane out.
Minor wing damage

 

[Tiran]

IMHO safer than an airliner because they stall around 40mph so if you keep it right side up you'll likely survive the impact
a friend of mine stalled his into a cornfield.

But they are incredibly unsafe at 500mph.

 

[jim hardy]

But they are incredibly unsafe at 500mph.

yes,
getting it to someplace you could find the necessary 425 mph tailwind would be risky

 

[Tiran]

yes,
getting it to someplace you could find the necessary 425 mph tailwind would be risky

I was joking around, but I really don't think low approach speeds = safety. Low speeds means that crosswinds become a larger vector, requiring more flight control input and more attitude changes. Unless landing gear and runways aren't appropriate for higher landing speeds, those landing speeds are not a safety issue. Same thing with low stall speeds - it doesn't matter if you stall speed is 30 or 300 if you go under it.

The statistically safest planes are airliners by most any measure. One of the safest small aircraft is the Jet Ranger helicopter. A lot of that has to do with who is flying them.

 

[seazal]

This is an example of the smartphone maps.me application that can works with gps in any airborne airliner even without any cell signal.

https://maps.me/download/

It comes in android and apple version (ipad or iPhone). It can show you in real time your exact location. I used it to navigate any streets in the world.

Do you know of other apps that gives even more details than it?

Supposed you were in the missing Malaysia flight 370 and learned your plane was going off course to the Andamon sea and not Beijing. What would you do?

I know this is very rare occurrence and doesn't deserve to spend so much time learning to fly. One could spend the time learning physics instead.

That said. Is there a video that gives introductions to the basic cockpits instruments present in all airplanes? Like autopilot, radio, etc.?

Also does all airplane from Cessna to the giant Airbus Dreamliner have similar landing speed? what knots is it? Or does it vary by airplane?

 

[jim hardy]

I was joking around,

 

[Tiran]

Also does all airplane from Cessna to the giant Airbus Dreamliner have similar landing speed?

No. Slow planes generally have slow landing speeds, faster planes increasing fast landing speeds.

 

[seazal]

No. Slow planes generally have slow landing speeds, faster planes increasing fast landing speeds.

Let's say you are a pilot and you don't know the landing speed of an unknown plane you just woke up in the middle of (just for sake of discussion), and you tried to land the airplane, can you know the required landing speed based on any indicators whether from the instruments or flight behavior?

 

[Tiran]

Let's say you are a pilot and you don't know the landing speed of an unknown plane you just woke up in the middle of (just for sake of discussion), and you tried to land the airplane, can you know the required landing speed based on any indicators whether from the instruments or flight behavior?

The landing checklist card should have a chart that gives you speeds based on configuration (flaps), altitude, pressure and gross weight. When in doubt, use a larger number.

 

[seazal]

The landing checklist card should have a chart that gives you speeds based on configuration (flaps), altitude, pressure and gross weight. When in doubt, use a larger number.

What would happen if a plane lands too fast? Any videos. I know if it's too slow, it would stall.

 

[OCR]

...Airbus Boeing Dreamliner...

Boeing 787 Dreamliner ....

.

 

[Tiran]

What would happen if a plane lands too fast? Any videos. I know if it's too slow, it would stall.

Up to a point, nothing. Way too fast and you won't be able to stop the plane before you go off the end of the runway, but airfields are designed for even that. (Assuming the airfield is a reasonable match for the aircraft.)

 

[seazal]

Up to a point, nothing. Way too fast and you won't be able to stop the plane before you go off the end of the runway, but airfields are designed for even that. (Assuming the airfield is a reasonable match for the aircraft.)

For decades, I always wonder how the airplane can time it's descend and speed enough to land at the first meters of the runway. Is it done by any instruments or just estimated by pilots? For example, your runway is 15 miles away and you are at certain altitude. How do you descend such that you can time the landing gear to touch down at the start of the landing strip? It's something I wasn't able to learn in the MS flight simulator.

 

[OCR]

What would happen if a plane lands too fast? Any videos.

Yes, a few ...And... watch ALL of these....

Oh... and this one too.

.

 

[Tiran]

For decades, I always wonder how the airplane can time it's descend and speed enough to land at the first meters of the runway. Is it done by any instruments or just estimated by pilots? For example, your runway is 15 miles away and you are at certain altitude. How do you descend such that you can time the landing gear to touch down at the start of the landing strip? It's something I wasn't able to learn in the MS flight simulator.

There are all sorts of ways of estimating a starting point for descent, but really you are just aiming the plane at a spot and flying to it. If your descent angle matches your predicted landing spot, it won't change location much in the windscreen.

Conceptually, it is little different than learning archery on a bow with no sights.You learn to direct the action based on visual cues that are hard to describe concretely.

 

[FactChecker]

I strongly disagree with the idea that a Microsoft flight simulator will reduce your fear of flying. You are not a real pilot. Microsoft is not a real airplane (no real visual or "seat of the pants" feedback). You would probably be trying to fly situations that would not occur in a hundred years of riding in a commercial airplane.

I like to encourage you to learn more, but IMHO this is not the way to decrease fear of flying. I have seen fighter pilots in their first practice restarting engines in a simulator and all I can say is that it was terrifying (single-engine airplane).

 

[CWatters]

If you are rich you some places offer time in a real simulator...

http://www.realsimulation.co.uk/gift-experiences-vouchers/

 

[seazal]

There are all sorts of ways of estimating a starting point for descent, but really you are just aiming the plane at a spot and flying to it. If your descent angle matches your predicted landing spot, it won't change location much in the windscreen.

Conceptually, it is little different than learning archery on a bow with no sights.You learn to direct the action based on visual cues that are hard to describe concretely.

So if the descend is too fast and the runway is still off a mile away then the plane will start to level and then descend again? Or there is some kind of HUD (Head Up Display) in the windscreen that shows the runway that you must align?

 

[Tiran]

So if the descend is too fast and the runway is still off a mile away then the plane will start to level and then descend again? Or there is some kind of HUD (Head Up Display) in the windscreen that shows the runway that you must align?

No, you just learn that the landing area should be (let's say) 4 inches above the instrument panel when your airspeed and vertical speed indicator are in a proper ratio.

You are assuming this is very technical when it is not. Once you've done it ten times it is rather obvious whether you are headed to the right spot. But your questions are like me asking you how you parallel park a car without radar and a compass.

 

[russ_watters]

This is an example of the smartphone maps.me application that can works with gps in any airborne airliner even without any cell signal.

Do you know of other apps that gives even more details than it?

Any app that works on the ground will work aloft. I use Google Maps when riding in planes. The only caveat is the trade-off between area covered and resolution -- and the need for a data connection. If the plane doesn't have wifi, you'll need offline maps, which many apps support (google maps does).

Also does all airplane from Cessna to the giant Airbus Dreamliner have similar landing speed? what knots is it? Or does it vary by airplane?

A Cessna can't even fly as fast as an airliner lands. A Cessna lands at about 50kts and an airliner around 140.

 

[russ_watters]

So if the descend is too fast and the runway is still off a mile away then the plane will start to level and then descend again? Or there is some kind of HUD (Head Up Display) in the windscreen that shows the runway that you must align?

You asked this before and were told about ILS. Did you forget already? Did you not read the link provided? Again: effort.

...however as @Tiran says, all pilots first learn visual approaches, using little more than their airspeed indicator and altimeter and looking out the window. It isn't much different from lining up a car for a turn. You can see if the runway is moving up or down in your windshield and therefore if you are getting low or high.

 

[Tiran]

So if the descend is too fast and the runway is still off a mile away then the plane will start to level and then descend again?

I didn't really address this directly: The plane won't do anything on its own. The pilot will recognize that the landing spot is rising in the windscreen and add power to level out until the appearance of proper glideslope is back in view.

Please understand this is just how things are done normally. You could also land by flying the last five miles 10 feet above the ground at landing speed and pull power off when you get to the runway. But that just isn't practical.

 

[rcgldr]

Let's say you are a pilot and you don't know the landing speed of an unknown plane

While in level flight before attempting a landing approach, a pilot could reduce speed until the angle of attack as shown by the attitude indicator became too high and then increase speed before allowing the aircraft to stall. Probably 5 to 7 degrees on the attitude indicator would be slow enough for landing (if there's a choice, choose the longer runway), and fast enough to avoid a stall. In a real world situation where a pilot has become unable to fly, a passenger has contacted the tower, and in some cases another aircraft flew along side the passenger controlled aircraft to guide it down.

For most civilian type aircraft, reducing speed to the point of needing 5 to 7 degrees nose up for level flight, might be slow enough to deploy flaps one step, then reducing speed until again needing perhaps 3 to 5 degrees nose up before deploying flaps to the next step, repeating the process until flaps were deployed around 20 degrees (full flaps might be an issue depending on ground conditions).

However, as posted by jrmichler, the airspeed indicator would be the best reference for the airspeed ranges of an aircraft, and the airspeed at the mid point of flaps fully down would be safe enough for a long runway.

For decades, I always wonder how the airplane can time it's descend and speed enough to land at the first meters of the runway.

The target landing spot on typical runways is 1/4 to 1/3 down the runway to allow margin for error or changing conditions. Advanced pilots will sometimes land on the "numbers", somewhat less than 1/4 of the runway length, but still have some margin for error.

 

[Tiran]

While in level flight before attempting a landing approach, a pilot could reduce speed until the angle of attack as shown by the attitude indicator became too high and then increase speed before allowing the aircraft to stall. Probably 5 to 7 degrees on the attitude indicator would be slow enough for landing (if there's a choice, choose the longer runway), and fast enough to avoid a stall.

I really don't see how this would work. 7° nose up in level flight is not going to be an approach attitude, or that it will give you an airspeed that is around stall. Plus you would have to be in landing configuration and not too high above landing altitude.

You could experiment with the impending stall indicator (buzzing pedals), but that is not going to be fun.

 

[FactChecker]

You could experiment with the impending stall indicator (buzzing pedals), but that is not going to be fun.

Ha! You can say that again. I'm not a pilot, but I would guess that playing with stall at low altitude is not a good idea.

 

[rcgldr]

I really don't see how this would work. 7° nose up in level flight is not going to be an approach attitude, or that it will give you an airspeed that is around stall. Plus you would have to be in landing configuration and not too high above landing altitude. You could experiment with the impending stall indicator (buzzing pedals), but that is not going to be fun.

The ideal here is a conservative approach to avoid a stall, as some aircraft can't recover from a spin (for example, the Piper Cherokee Warrior is not certified for spins). 3 to 4 degrees nose up on approach (while descending at 3 degrees) should be slow enough to land on a longer runway. A pilot could try mostly holding attitude at 3 to 4 degrees nose up while following the glide slope, mostly using throttle to stay on the glide slope. There are exceptions, the twin engine civilian aircraft at a local (to me) airport land on a runway shared by commercial aircraft, and approach at a faster than normal speed (almost nose down) to avoid interfering with the airliner traffic, but the runway is long enough (since it's meant for commercial airliners) for the twins to bleed off speed once they're near the end of the runway, and land with margin to spare. In an emergency, with airliners put in a holding pattern, that runway would be more than long enough for something like a Cessna 182 to approach at 3 to 4 degrees nose up and land with margin to spare.

As posted by jrmichler, the airspeed indicator would be the best reference for the airspeed ranges of an aircraft, and the airspeed at the mid point of flaps fully down would be safe enough for a long runway.