Electric vehicles to pay for detroit bailout?

[OmCheeto]

Om - Did you build the motor yourself? Conversion? If so I'm interested in a similar DIY project and am wondering how well the HP rating on the piston engine matches w/ the HP rating on the electric motor in regards to actual boat speed.

The motor is a 1 hp 12vdc permanent magnet type which I mated up with a 1.5 hp lower unit. It was done purely as an experiment to collect data. I've never had a 1 hp gas motor so I can't really compare the two. I can only tell you that overdriving the motor with 24vdc pushed me along at 3.57 mph, and overheated the motor to an estimated 400'F. Ouch. Lessons learned: Install a thermometer. Motor is too small for my needs. Cost of fuel for the 30 minute, 1.7 mile round trip would have been 8 cents, had the panels not been the original source of energy. Cost with my 40hp ICE would have been about 1/4 gallon of gasoline, but would have taken only 3 minutes. The batteries were not matched. About an hour after the test, one of the batteries voltage indicated that it was nearly 70% charged. The other was dead. I already knew the batteries should be matched, but was surprised at the difference.

But the point of my post was not that either vehicle could be directly driven by the panels, only that they are a non-fossil fuel source of energy. The automobile had lost the serpentine belt tensioner that drove the alternator. The panels only replaced the alternator to drive the 13 miles home such that repairs could be made. (I was actually surprised that it worked.)

The boat mod was inspired by Myles Twete's "http://www.evalbum.com/492"". Which is actually moored where my electric boat experiment took place.
(Ooops. I see I'm https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=1948388&postcount=27". Senility Now!)

Edit: also - since LiIon is getting pretty cheap in some places, you might look at upgrading those lead acid bricks.
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2513502&postcount=199

Yes. It took me a while to clean up all the drool when you posted that the other day.

But that motors days as a boat pusher are over. It's now mated to an old alternator doing new experiments.

I'm also considering pulling the gas engines off of my lawnmower and rototiller and putting in quick disconnects such that the motor can be swapped between the two. Thus eliminating two more gas guzzlers, and putting my usually idling panels to work. In the summer that is. I hate these stinking tree hugging neighbors of mine...

Though I've 4 firs over 100 ft tall on my plot, so I'm sure my neighbors to the north say the same thing about me.

 

[mheslep]

Ok, I'm going to try it again...
Gasoline verses lifepo4

Volumetric energy density = 220 Wh/liter.
Gasoline is 8,760Wh/liter.

~9500 Wh/liter, or ~122700 BTUs per US gallon

Gravimetric energy density = 90 Wh/kg

LiFePO is ~135 Wh/kg

Gasoline is 1,270Wh/kg

Maybe you dropped a zero. Gasoline is ~12500 Wh/kg, or ~19300 BTU/lb

 

[mheslep]

The motor is a 1 hp 12vdc
[...]
I can only tell you that overdriving the motor with 24vdc pushed me along at 3.57 mph, and overheated the motor to an estimated 400'F. Ouch. Lessons learned: Install a thermometer...

Install a thermometer? How about run the motor at rated voltage?

 

[OmCheeto]

Install a thermometer? How about run the motor at rated voltage?

The mobility company from which the motor came installed their own nameplate. I have not a clue who originally manufactured it or what the actual motor ratings are. 12V and 1hp are guesses based upon the motors size, and inability to dissipate heat when run at 24V. It may even be a 24v motor. But the removal of the worm gear and transmission has changed the conditions that the motor was designed operate under. It is for this reason that I would highly advise installing a temperature gauge when doing such experiments.

Some might just say to install a fuse or breaker. This is impractical as motors can handle quite a bit of short term abuse, but not long term abuse. And you wouldn't want to have to change a fuse while a 60,000 ton freighter is bearing down on you, or a tractor trailer decides to run a red light while you're in the middle of an intersection.

 

[mheslep]

The WSJ was the basis for these https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2381030&postcount=82" on Chinese EV and battery maker BYD and founder Wang. Fortune also came out with this article.
http://money.cnn.com/2009/04/13/technology/gunther_electric.fortune/index.htm
Its topically about Buffet, who invested $230m in BYD, but principally about Wang. The guy is remarkable. At 43, he is what I'd call an old school entrepreneur.

Wang typically works until 11 p.m. or midnight, five or six days a week. "In China, people of my generation put work first and life second," says the CEO, whose wife takes responsibility for raising their two children.

This "human resource advantage" is "the most important part" of BYD's strategy, Wang says. His engineers investigate a wide array of technologies, from automobile air-conditioning systems that can run on batteries to the design of solar-powered streetlights. Unlike most automakers, BYD manufactures nearly all its cars by itself - not just the engines and body but air conditioning, lamps, seatbelts, airbags, and electronics. "It is difficult for others to compete," Wang says. "If we put our staff in Japan or the U.S., we could not afford to do anything like this."

Wang himself grew up in extreme poverty. His parents, both farmers, died before he entered high school, and he was raised by an older brother and sister. The train ride from the village where he grew up to Central South Industrial University of Technology, where he earned his chemistry degree, took him by Yellow Mountain, a popular destination for hikers and tourists, but he has never visited there. "I didn't go then because we had no money," he says. "I don't go now because we have no time."

As for accumulating wealth? "I'm not interested in it," he claims. He certainly doesn't live a very lavish lifestyle. He was paid about $265,000 in 2008, and he lives in a BYD-owned apartment complex with other engineers. His only indulgences are a Mercedes and a Lexus, and they have a practical purpose: He takes their engines apart to see how they work. On a trip to the U.S., he once tried to disassemble the seat of a Toyota owned by Fred Ni, an executive who was driving him around. Shortly after BYD went public, Wang did something extraordinary: He took approximately 15% of his holdings in BYD and distributed the shares to about 20 other executives and engineers at the company. He still owns roughly 28% of the shares, worth about $1 billion.

 

[mheslep]

Per http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLDE61609S20100207". Range 100 miles. Base price somewhere in the $20k range w/ no battery. The BP network - charge spots, switching stations, and leased batteries - is due to come online in Israel in ~9 months. I haven't seen any reports on the switching station progress, which is key to that business model.

 

[Brian_C]

My opinion is that Elon Musk is an absolute moron. Tesla won't last very long. They can't compete with the big boys.

 

[mgb_phys]

My opinion is that Elon Musk is an absolute moron ... can't compete with the big boys.

Yes you obviously need a very special kind of intellect to get into the state of GM/Chrysler/etc

 

[mheslep]

Yes you obviously need a very special kind of intellect to get into the state of GM/Chrysler/etc

Yes, cue Doctor Evil here with pinky finger to lip to say GM's market cap is [STRIKE]$4.5 MILLION DOLLARS[/STRIKE]. Whoops, wrong GM. Symbol is MTLQQ - http://www.google.com/finance?hl=en&tab=we&q=MTLQQ" That compared to scrawny Tesla Motor's $359 M.

 

[mgb_phys]

The GM technique, lose money on every sale - but make up for it in volume !

 

[mheslep]

Following up on several of the earlier delivery/service truck fleet https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2396343&postcount=129", it appears FedEx will be the first out using EVs for van/truck fleets on any large scale.

http://rumors.automobilemag.com/6662358/green/first-all-electric-fedex-truck-journeys-down-route-66/index.html

FedEx sourced its electric truck from U.K. firm Modec and completely revamped all onboard systems. In prototype guise, an electric motor draws power from an 80-kilowatt-hour battery and generates 102 horsepower and 220 pound-feet of torque. While range is a major concern with pure electric vehicles, the truck reportedly offers a 100-mile range and is equipped with regenerative braking. Additional important specs include a 3000-pound payload rating and a top speed of 50 mph.

 

[mheslep]

The first modern operational battery switching station is open in Tokyo. Looks like a good design to me. It services a 90 day trial run of three taxies running around Tokyo. They are converted Nissan compact SUVs, using batteries made by A123, 17 kWh. Station switches batteries in about one minute.

Promo video showing construction and operation of the station.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh0mDhCGkkA

Still no word of any US car manufacturer taking an interest in battery switching.

 

[mheslep]

Navistar, the parent of International, is manufacturing these FedEx trucks.

Specs:
80 kWh battery, 100 mile range, 102HP, 4400 lb payload, 220 VAC 3 phase charge, 6-8 hours to charge. A123 is making the battery. Cost is $100k greater than a similar diesel truck, but fuel costs may pay for themselves over 10-15 years at ~$8k savings per year in energy costs.
http://gas2.org/2010/05/13/navistar...n-of-its-all-electric-commercial-2-ton-truck/