Florida Collapsed Condominium had been sinking since 1990s

[anorlunda]

The building should not have been certified.

Actually this should be welcome news for residents of the other buildings in that area. Rather than a systemic problem endangering all of the buildings, it sounds like a rogue outlier. That may or may not be the whole truth, but I'll wager that the neighbors are willing to grasp at straws.

 

[artis]

Since this is squarely in the realm of government oversight, I don't see how this has anything to do with capitalism.

Yes but government and regulating authorities can be lobbied from powerful capital interests to move in the direction of deregulation or to stop certain moves to impose stricter regulation. I think I need not give examples here as there have been so many.

Given I've seen two systems at work , I'd say in socialism/communism the final product was often bad because the workers and developers (state owned) are too lazy to do any better (they get paid anyway, who cares) , in a capitalist oriented system the workers often perform better (they are motivated to get paid more and try better) but the developer on the other hand is interested in more profit , so it then "cuts corners" on it's level, if it can of course. Here comes the inspection/regulation part.

 

[mcastillo356]

Hi, Artis!
I think it is a bit of the fudge, at the risk of going off on a tangent. Is very interesting, but I think is not the point. Is my personal point of view. Forgive my language, I am not native.
Love, greetings.

 

[russ_watters]

Yes but government and regulating authorities can be lobbied from powerful capital interests to move in the direction of deregulation or to stop certain moves to impose stricter regulation.

None of which is said to have happened here. Furthermore, blaming a broad system when there is individual malfeasance let's the wrongdoers off the hook.

Please keep it on topic/focused on what actually happened.

 

[russ_watters]

Actually this should be welcome news for residents of the other buildings in that area. Rather than a systemic problem endangering all of the buildings, it sounds like a rogue outlier. That may or may not be the whole truth, but I'll wager that the neighbors are willing to grasp at straws.

Agreed. But I still would want to know if the engineer, builder and permit inspectors were involved with other, similar buildings. Building inspection departments can be understaffed, but at least today they are not in the habit of rubber stamping drawings. Code compliance is serious.

 

[artis]

I guess it comes down to how frequently the inspectors took samples of the concrete used or watched the actual amount of rebar positioned in each column and how it was done.
It was the 1980 when this one was built but still at that point construction techniques for cast reinforced concrete were already there so i would suspect construction goes at rather fast pace. I can't comment on how the inspections take place since I know almost nothing of US inspections 40 years ago or now for that matter.

 

[Astronuc]

Actually this should be welcome news for residents of the other buildings in that area. Rather than a systemic problem endangering all of the buildings, it sounds like a rogue outlier.

Champlain Towers North involved the same organizations, but perhaps some different contractors. I don't know. I believe that there is one structure under investigation. Other structures of the same vintage are being evaluated in Surfside and the Miami Beach area in general. I'm sure insurance companies will insist of more rigorous assessments/evaluations.

It appears there were some design flaws (that could affect the sister building), as well as construction and material deficiencies, in conjunction with an aggressive environment (marine), which in confluence undermined the structural integrity of the structure. Another factor would the inadequate or faulty building/construction inspection processes, both during the initial construction phase and subsequent inspections, particularly the last inspection in which the town inspector told residents and board that the building was 'in very good shape' in 2018. Red flags were waving back then.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/01/us/surfside-engineering-morabito-lawsuit/index.html

Morabito Consultants noted "abundant cracking and spalling" in concrete columns and walls, "exposed, deteriorating rebar" and failing waterproofing beneath the pool deck and entrance drive that was causing "major structural damage."

A more recent investigation by Morabito during 2020 indicated further deterioration.

According to a document acquired by NPR from an anonymous source, the company's probe, conducted between June and October 2020, found problems that appeared even more grave than those identified in an earlier 2018 study of the condo conducted by the same company.

https://www.npr.org/sections/live-u...-deterioration-before-surfside-condo-collapse
https://www.wptv.com/news/state/mia...uctural-damage-before-surfside-condo-collapse
https://nypost.com/2021/07/02/condo-workers-suspended-repairs-due-to-concrete-damage-report/
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...repairs-delayed-unexpected-damage/7833145002/

The Surfside building inspector who told the condo board the building was in very good shape.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/01/us/ross-prieto-surfside.html

 

[Vanadium 50]

Broke Building Code From the Very Beginning

That answers my question in messgae #3: "the standards were adequate but not followed"

Building something that is almost-but-not-quite what is in the drawing is exactly what happened in the Kansas City Hyatt walkway disaster.

 

[artis]

@Vanadium 50 I would argue the Kansas Hyatt walkways were a big mistake instead of "not quite" , both walkways were meant to be suspended from the same metal rods, instead they suspended the upper one on one rods and the lower one on other different rods which never intersected with the upper ones. Result - upper walkway beam to rod connection now holds not just it's own weight but also the weight of the lower walkway, so essentially twice the load it was designed for. Not to mention the asymmetric loading on the upper walkway lateral beam support.

I'd say that would be equivalent to building a cast column-floor slab structure where the columns change position on each floor, so that the column on the next floor isn't matching the footprint of the column below.
Surely a very dumb idea.

 

[PaulTravers]

I imagine there is a potential for 'negligent homicide'. Even a study in 2020 indicated the building was unstable.

MSN - Land around the Florida condo that collapsed was showing signs of sinking, according to a 2020 study
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/realestate/land-around-the-florida-condo-that-collapsed-was-showing-signs-of-sinking-according-to-a-2020-study/ar-AALp3eT

Why weren't the residents warned? Why wasn't the building condemned? And it was undergoing a review for recertification?!

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/collapsed-miami-condo-had-been-sinking-into-earth-as-early-as-the-1990s-researchers-say/ar-AALoUP0

There reason that licensed professional engineers are licensed is so this s*** doesn't happen! Same reason for building inspections and certification.

This didn't just happen. It was a slow, and apparently detectable, condition, a disaster waiting to happen. Someone neglected the evidence, and neglected to warn the residents.

Building on sandy soil is dangerous enough and having ocean water (Brine) eroding soil requires frequent inspections. The Florida government & local officials knew this and as this particular story unfolds, the officials past it off as overlooked from past retired inspector rejected the building foundation but the paperwork got lost with the new inspector taking over!
This is the local government 100% at fault for lack of condemning the building until fixed.
Only to generate tourist money!

 

[anorlunda]

This is the local government 100% at fault for lack of condemning the building until fixed.

Only when governments become liable for the damages will they be motivated to take their responsibilities seriously. There's a case right now in Maryland testing that.
https://reason.com/volokh/2021/08/27/baltimore-might-be-liable-for-riot-damage-to-businesses/

 

[artis]

@anorlunda From my own experience , government is the last of all organizations to ever successfully sue or bring to justice. Much like big companies , you can always pass the blame down the road.

 

[anorlunda]

@anorlunda From my own experience , government is the last of all organizations to ever successfully sue or bring to justice. Much like big companies , you can always pass the blame down the road.

I agree. My real point was that because of that difficulty, there is no reason to have faith in government regulation/oversight/inspection being a solution to any problem. They can't be motivated to do it right.

 

[Astronuc]

Left to rot: Collapsed condo born of botched construction and evidence of money laundering​

https://news.yahoo.com/left-rot-collapsed-condo-born-090209489.html

The reporting reveals for the first time that early condo sales exhibit tell-tale signs of a money laundering scheme. Experts said cutting corners on construction often accompanied money laundering. At Champlain South, engineers noted an incorrectly designed pool deck and improperly constructed support columns. Money laundering might have meant that some early buyers weren’t living in the condo building or concerned with its long-term maintenance.

 

[artis]

@Astronuc I read through that link, interesting read.

But given the original developers are now dead and others nowhere to be found or also likely dead it seems it will be tough luck for the prosecutors to actually find who should be on the guilty stand.

I would argue that these more nuanced defects that allow the structure to survive long enough are more dangerous than some large ones that can be seen from day 1 and push the inspectors to close the thing down before the "party is over".

 

[Vanadium 50]

others nowhere to be found

Next to Jimmy Hoffa, I'm sure.

 

[artis]

You know just a random thought skipped my mind while thinking about this.
It is impossible to put a inspector on every piece of rebar and ton of concrete put inside of a new building , so a lot of the responsibility of how good the structure being built is lies on the actual developers, builders and even ordinary construction workers doing the actual "rubber meets the road" part.

Now in this day and age given the technology we have , maybe we can't put a person next to every column being cast but can't we use video cameras installed in key locations overseeing the whole construction process much like we have security cams in stores and cities and on every corner now.
Then a skilled team of specialists could sit and monitor what is going on.
Given today's camera quality I believe a skilled professional would be able to spot any irregularities by eye.
Sure this doesn't cancel the rest of checks like concrete mix quality which you can't tell by video alone but I think it could take some burden off from the inspectors and give more access to the quality control.
Like for example putting excessive amounts of rebar in some columns while not enough in others in the Champlain towers case.

Maybe this is being done already somewhere ?

 

[gmax137]

the guilty stand

I hope this is a translation issue

It is impossible to put a inspector on every piece of rebar and ton of concrete put inside of a new building

Spend some time in nuclear power plant construction. This is why they cost four times the original estimate, and sometimes never get completed.

 

[Rive]

Maybe this is being done already somewhere ?

I hope not. It would be like doing a quality review while looking through a drinking straw. Just not the thing you wanna' bet your life on.

 

[artis]

I hope this is a translation issue

What did you thought it to be ? English is not my first language by the way.

 

[gmax137]

What did you thought it to be ? English is not my first language by the way.

I meant no offense.

Here in the US courtrooms, one testifies from the "witness stand." This is a neutral word that does not hint at the guilt or innocence of the person testifying.

The person on trial sits at the "defense table" with their attorneys.

The ideal is, one is presumed innocent.

 

[artis]

I meant no offense.

Here in the US courtrooms, one testifies from the "witness stand." This is a neutral word that does not hint at the guilt or innocence of the person testifying.

The person on trial sits at the "defense table" with their attorneys.

The ideal is, one is presumed innocent.

Oh Ok I get it , yes I wasn't that familiar with the terminology.

 

[swampwiz]

You know just a random thought skipped my mind while thinking about this.
It is impossible to put a inspector on every piece of rebar and ton of concrete put inside of a new building , so a lot of the responsibility of how good the structure being built is lies on the actual developers, builders and even ordinary construction workers doing the actual "rubber meets the road" part.

Now in this day and age given the technology we have , maybe we can't put a person next to every column being cast but can't we use video cameras installed in key locations overseeing the whole construction process much like we have security cams in stores and cities and on every corner now.
Then a skilled team of specialists could sit and monitor what is going on.
Given today's camera quality I believe a skilled professional would be able to spot any irregularities by eye.
Sure this doesn't cancel the rest of checks like concrete mix quality which you can't tell by video alone but I think it could take some burden off from the inspectors and give more access to the quality control.
Like for example putting excessive amounts of rebar in some columns while not enough in others in the Champlain towers case.

Maybe this is being done already somewhere ?

Even better would be for the construction supervisor engineer to take a photo of the rebar for every single structural element - and the location of each could be exactly determined from GPS, so to thwart a cheater that takes a different photo of the same element claiming it to be another. I suppose that a cheater could go so far as to take a photo of the rebar at one location, and then take the rebar out to be put into another location, etc., but it would seem to be easier to just pay for more rebar!

 

[swampwiz]

High-rise structures (the taller, i.e., the heavier) are particularly vulnerable. Pilings have to go deep, ideally to bedrock, with depth based on the mass of the building and compressibility of the subsurface.

High-rise buildings in New Orleans have to have pilons that go to the bedrock; the soil has always settled once the Mississippi River levees stopped flooding the area, which is why a substantial part is under sea level. I wonder if engineers in FL consider the limestone layer to be "bedrock"; while limestone might be generally be strong, it does have the problem of microleaks due to acid eating away at it, which is why areas miles away from the coast get "sunny day flooding" from the sea, and also why building a seawall would never work for keeping out hurricane storm surge.

 

[artis]

For those that still have memory about the Champlain towers saga , here are some good looking back summaries from what I understand to be a building engineer.
The first one is about the signs that were there to see (if there had been anyone around with enough initiative and understanding sadly...) that showed before the collapse that it is about to happen .


And here is another video detailing how the pool deck collapsed pulling in some of the columns under the building itself which then initiated the final collapse.


For those that watch the second video I think after this evidence it becomes really clear what the residents heard minutes before the pool deck collapse. The banging sounds were most likely the old rusted out rebar under tension snapping while still inside the concrete , creating a sound most likely similar to that of ice cracking on a frozen lake in winter.