Get Vaccinated Against the Covid Delta Variant

[Astronuc]

A tipping point’: Kansas City hospitals are turning away patients due to COVID surge
https://news.yahoo.com/tipping-point-kansas-city-hospitals-193117650.html

KU has been turning down between one and six acute patients each day. If they had not been doing so, staff would be treating about 100 such patients, Stites said. Increasing COVID-19 infections could exacerbate the problem.

The Delta variant seems to be the predominant infectious agent in the US.

Missouri health officials on Wednesday reported the highest daily increase in infections since mid-January with 2,995 additional cases. The Missouri Independent, a news organization covering the state, reported that the seven-day average of cases rose to 2,144 per day, up “one-third in seven days and more than triple the average of June 21.”

In Alabama, a doctor has been telling her COVID-19 patients that it is too late to get the vaccine, and she tells some before they are intubated.

In Mississippi, seven children were in ICU for COVID-19, and two were on ventilators, as of July 14.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/14/us/mississippi-covid-children/index.html

 

[atyy]

So we should also expect that this variant will be much hard to contain. If you know someone who is immune compromised, it could be very difficult to protect them from exposure.

It also means that anyone who was hoping to ride this out without getting either vaccinated or infected is likely playing a loosing game.

https://healthblog.uofmhealth.org/w...uld-i-keep-wearing-my-mask-once-im-vaccinated
If I’m Immunocompromised, Should I Keep Wearing My Mask Once I’m Vaccinated?

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/cdc...compromised-people-boosters/story?id=79001113
CDC advisory committee voices support for immunocompromised people getting boosters

 

[StevieTNZ]

New Zealand has paused quarantine-free travel between all of Australia from 11.59pm tonight:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/he...nstasman-travel-bubble-will-close-for-8-weeks

 

[bhobba]

In Alabama, a doctor has been telling her COVID-19 patients that it is too late to get the vaccine, and she tells some before they are intubated.

WOW. I would have thought to get both doses and immunity to build will only take a few weeks (I think 5 weeks for Pfizer). You can strongly isolate during that time, so it may still be worth it. Here in Aus, it now is a race. NSW can't get Delta under control and are pushing vaccination hard. It is no surprise - its R0 is 5. So they think it is what should be done. We will need to wait and see.

Thanks
Bill

 

[bhobba]

New Zealand has paused quarantine-free travel between all of Australia from 11.59pm tonight:

As explained in the link, a national emergency has been declared here in Aus. We MUST vaccinate as quickly as we can. Preferably with Pfizer, but the AZ vaccine must be used as well. I have no issue with AZ because even getting out of bed has a 2.5 in a million risk of dying - greater than the now 1 in a million risk of dying from AZ. Rational commentators all agree it is plain silly to hold out for Pfizer. The issue is we are now doing over 1 million vaccinations a week, and increasing, so we can expect a death a week. We had 2 in the last week. They naturally get a lot of news coverage that scares the bejesus out of people, and out goes rationality. @StevieTNZ is a psychiatrist and may wish to comment on the psychiatric phenomena involved here.

Thanks
Bill

 

[atyy]

In Alabama, a doctor has been telling her COVID-19 patients that it is too late to get the vaccine, and she tells some before they are intubated.

WOW. I would have thought to get both doses and immunity to build will only take a few weeks (I think 5 weeks for Pfizer). You can strongly isolate during that time, so it may still be worth it. Here in Aus, it now is a race. NSW can't get Delta under control and are pushing vaccination hard. It is no surprise - its R0 is 5. So they think it is what should be done. We will need to wait and see.

There's important context here. The comment by @Astronuc refers to a doctor addressing patients who are in a very serious condition with COVID-19.
https://www.al.com/news/2021/07/im-...eating-unvaccinated-dying-covid-patients.html

"... “A few days later when I call time of death,” continued Cobia on Facebook, “I hug their family members and I tell them the best way to honor their loved one is to go get vaccinated and encourage everyone they know to do the same.”

“They cry. And they tell me they didn’t know. They thought it was a hoax. They thought it was political. They thought because they had a certain blood type or a certain skin color they wouldn’t get as sick. They thought it was ‘just the flu’. But they were wrong. And they wish they could go back. But they can’t. So they thank me and they go get the vaccine. And I go back to my office, write their death note, and say a small prayer that this loss will save more lives.” ..."

Yes, obviously, if one is well and hasn't gotten the vaccine, one should get it as soon as it becomes available.

 

[Astronuc]

I haven't seen the demographics on recent infections with SARS-Cov-2, but it appears younger people are being infected. Data are being studied, but anecdotally it seems the younger population are experiencing increased rates of mortality. Hospitalization rates of children with Covid-19 is about 1% compared to 15-20% of adult cases.

Although Delta appears to be more contagious than other variants, it does not appear to be more severe. One recent study from Scotland suggests the Delta variant is about twice as likely as Alpha to result in hospitalization in unvaccinated individuals, but other data has shown no significant difference.

Patel said research is ongoing to determine whether the strain leads to higher-than-expected deaths or hospitalizations.

https://news.yahoo.com/delta-varian...-contagious-coronavirus-strain-175513902.html

Edit/update:

Amanda Beinborn and her family had wanted to investigate vaccines further before deciding whether to get one. However, before she could find out more, the 20-year-old tested positive in June and her family members quickly followed suit.

Beinborn told News4Jax that said she was sick for four days before her parents and brother became ill too. She said her father, Dennis Beinborn, 55, was admitted to the ICU on July 3 and died on July 19 from the disease.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/woman-regrets-family-not-getting-covid-vaccinations-after-father-died/ar-AAMtMer?li=BBnb7Kz

In Arkansas, Angela Morris was left distraught when her 13-year-old daughter, Caia Morris Cooper, was put on a ventilator at Arkansas Children's Hospital in Little Rock, where she is fighting for her life.

She had resisted vaccinations for her and her daughter because she thought that masks and staying at home would suffice.

 

[artis]

I think the higher hospitalization rate for the Delta will turn out to be solely because it is more transmissible and therefore it sweeps a much larger part of the population and so many more of the elderly or sick or otherwise compromised folks get exposed.

If the regular flu had the opportunity to infect at the rate at which Covid does it too would be far lethal than currently.
Some years ago my grandpa died from kidney failure, they failed after he got a small cold which was most likely a virus since he lived only indoors and I probably brought the virus to him but i felt nothing and he suddenly developed a running nose and sore throat at first then it ended but as it ended he stopped urinating, I got him into the hospital and they swiftly took him to ICU where they performed dialysis because his kidneys had failed.
He was 90.
So technically if you are weak enough anything can take you down , probably even a sneeze.

 

[StevieTNZ]

As explained in the link, a national emergency has been declared here in Aus. We MUST vaccinate as quickly as we can. Preferably with Pfizer, but the AZ vaccine must be used as well. I have no issue with AZ because even getting out of bed has a 2.5 in a million risk of dying - greater than the now 1 in a million risk of dying from AZ. Rational commentators all agree it is plain silly to hold out for Pfizer. The issue is we are now doing over 1 million vaccinations a week, and increasing, so we can expect a death a week. We had 2 in the last week. They naturally get a lot of news coverage that scares the bejesus out of people, and out goes rationality. @StevieTNZ is a psychiatrist and may wish to comment on the psychiatric phenomena involved here.

Thanks
Bill

since when was I a psychiatrist?

 

[Evo]

And then there are people like this guy, unbelievable.

A Louisiana man who contracted COVID-19 and wound up hospitalized said he would rather be ill than get vaccinated against the coronavirus.

The father and small-business owner recently caught COVID-19 and developed pneumonia, but he said he still would not have gotten vaccinated if that meant he could have prevented the infection.

"I would have gone through this, yes sir," Roe, , told CBS News' David Begnaud. "Don't shove it down my throat. That's what local, state, federal administration is trying to do - shove it down your throat."

When Begnaud asked what was being shoved, Roe said, "Their agenda is to get you vaccinated."

https://www.yahoo.com/news/man-hospitalized-covid-19-told-160432588.html

Their agenda is to possibly save your life. HELL NO! Ain't NO ONE going to save my LIFE! I'll save my OWN life or I'll die!

 

[bhobba]

since when was I a psychiatrist?

My bad. I thought you mentioned you were.

Sorry.

Thanks
Bill

 

[StevieTNZ]

My bad. I thought you mentioned you were.

Sorry.

Thanks
Bill

I wish I was - and probably could pass as one, given the knowledge I've gained from reading books on the subject, as well as being "in the system" for so long. BIG BUCKS THEY EARN :P

 

[StevieTNZ]

And then there are people like this guy, unbelievable.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/man-hospitalized-covid-19-told-160432588.html

Their agenda is to possibly save your life. HELL NO! Ain't NO ONE going to save my LIFE! I'll save my OWN life or I'll die!

Sadly there are idiots like that out there. In fact, a friend of mine on facebook from Brisbane said he took 99% of the ingredients out of the vaccine - and what was left? Baby blood. He's too religious for me.

 

[atyy]

Sadly their are idiots like that out there. In fact, a friend of mine on facebook from Brisbane said he took 99% of the ingredients out of the vaccine - and what was left? Baby blood. He's too religious for me.

Could it be referring to the use of cell lines from aborted fetuses in the development of some vaccines, and in the production of others?

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/joh...ious-dilemma-morality-fetal/story?id=76204922
"While Pfizer and Moderna used these cells during preliminary laboratory testing months ago, Johnson & Johnson's vaccine uses the cells as part of its existing manufacturing process -- raising especial "moral concerns," conservative leaders told ABC News.

"If one can choose among equally safe and effective COVID-19 vaccines, the vaccine with the least connection to abortion-derived cell lines should be chosen," Bishop Kevin C. Rhoades, chairman of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops Committee on Doctrine, and Archbishop Joseph F. Naumann, chairman of the USCCB's Committee on Pro-Life Activities, said in a joint statement Tuesday night. "Therefore, if one has the ability to choose a vaccine, Pfizer or Moderna's vaccines should be chosen over Johnson & Johnson's.""

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-55409693
""All vaccinations recognised as clinically safe and effective can be used in good conscience with the certain knowledge that the use of such vaccines does not constitute formal co-operation with the abortion from which the cells used in production of the vaccines derive," the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith announced in a statement on Monday.

The text, which was approved by Pope Francis, also said there was "a moral imperative" to ensure that poorer countries received access to effective vaccines."

 

[StevieTNZ]

Could it be referring to the use of cell lines from aborted fetuses in the development of some vaccines, and in the production of others?

He's completely anti-vaccine and I think doesn't even believe Covid-19 is real. I want to comment on his posts but I won't.

 

[artis]

From what I read I believe that fetal cells are used because they are "new" and haven't divided yet beyond the usable limit and are best suited for growing human infecting viruses?
The thing I don't know is how many are needed to produce such a vast amount of vaccines given the virus has to be grown constantly otherwise it would run out of virus?Anyway @Evo and @StevieTNZ I too have come across quite a lot of crazy folks in my life especially recently (mainly because recently due to Covid etc they have come out of hiding) but there is a part of me that understands them. I mean today we live in a very polarized environment politically and socially as well as we have so much information coming to us from all sides it can essentially be called "information short circuit"

I believe that it is simply because not all people have the time and capacity to process all this information to arrive at some generally sound conclusions. Like I myself had the time and willingness to think about all of this and from what it seems I am almost certain the Chinese screwed up their bat research gain of function stuff in Wuhan and the virus although having a natural origin is "spiced up" and so was able to take off from day one like a jet from a runway (unlike the previous SARS and MERS) and pretty much any other virus but that doesn't make me go crazy and refuse all medicine alltogether. Once the harm is done we need to find ways out of this. One way , especially for those older and weaker is the vaccine.

I don't know whether this makes me part of the conspiracy world but in this case I am quite alarmed and angry that if the lab theory is correct it seems China and it's dangerous regime will get away with it. Given the circumstances the least they should have done was to allow a complete and thorough access to both Wuhan (lab , etc) and elsewhere. Although I guess chasing a virus origin is like chasing the wind somewhat. Unless someone comes forward and admits (if there is anything to admit) we will never know. Anyway I am going off topic here so pardon me

 

[pinball1970]

I don't know whether this makes me part of the conspiracy world but in this case I am quite alarmed and angry that if the lab theory is correct it seems China and it's dangerous regime will get away with it. Given the circumstances the least they should have done was to allow a complete and thorough access to both Wuhan (lab , etc) and elsewhere. Although I guess chasing a virus origin is like chasing the wind somewhat. Unless someone comes forward and admits (if there is anything to admit) we will never know. Anyway I am going off topic here so pardon me

We know this can and has happened naturally way before genetics and biotechnology was a thing.
It does not change where we are either way.
For the UK we may have DELTA beat. Restrictions lifted on Monday and prior to this most places were open.
Vaccine uptake trailing off to a low of 18,000 in one day (400,000 per day in March) They are now offering to 12-17 year olds.
Cases going through the roof in June to a high of 54,000 cases in a day but it looks that has changed.
Consecutive days of decreasing numbers and we have dropped to 33,000. The numbers always yo-yo before and after the weekend but this was Thurs drop and again Friday.
Perok hinted similar and he is London based.
Am I being premature? @PeroK

 

[atyy]

From what I read I believe that fetal cells are used because they are "new" and haven't divided yet beyond the usable limit and are best suited for growing human infecting viruses?
The thing I don't know is how many are needed to produce such a vast amount of vaccines given the virus has to be grown constantly otherwise it would run out of virus?

From this news report, it seems the cells are used simply because they are by now standard in research, and their properties well understood. In fact, the HEK293 cells are so standard that I have read about them in countless research papers since I was an undergraduate more than 20 years ago (at which time they were already standard), and although I should have realized it (because HEK stands for "human embryonic kidney"), I didn't know till this very moment that they were from an aborted fetus.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08...accine-ethical-religious-foetal-cell/12592800

Off topic, but there are completely different ethical problems (in part related to racial discrimination) with another standard cell line HeLa.
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02494-z
Henrietta Lacks: science must right a historical wrong

I believe that it is simply because not all people have the time and capacity to process all this information to arrive at some generally sound conclusions. Like I myself had the time and willingness to think about all of this and from what it seems I am almost certain the Chinese screwed up their bat research gain of function stuff in Wuhan and the virus although having a natural origin is "spiced up" and so was able to take off from day one like a jet from a runway (unlike the previous SARS and MERS) and pretty much any other virus but that doesn't make me go crazy and refuse all medicine alltogether. Once the harm is done we need to find ways out of this. One way , especially for those older and weaker is the vaccine.

SARS-CoV-2 could not have arisen from anything resembling the known so-called "gain-of-function" (using the term in a loose and broad sense, not in the technical sense relevant for the NIH funding pause) work at the institute (which has been published). That research used viruses that have only 80% similarity to SARS-CoV-2. It is conceivable that they had other gain-of-function research going on, but they have said that all their "live" viruses (a pre-requisite for gain-of-function) have only about 80% similarity to SARS-CoV-2. Although it cannot be ruled out that they are lying, what they say makes sense. Their gain-of-function experiments are based on Sars-1, which has only about 80% similarity to SARS-CoV-2.
Christian Drosten, a German virologist, has explained it with an analogy. https://www.republik.ch/2021/06/05/herr-drosten-woher-kam-dieses-virus: "Let me explain it with a picture: To check, for example, whether adjustments make the virus more contagious, I would take an existing system, incorporate the change and then compare it with the old system. If I want to know whether a new car radio improves the sound, I take an existing car and replace the radio there. Then I compare. I'm not building a completely new car for it. But that's exactly how it was with Sars-2: The whole car is different."

I don't know whether this makes me part of the conspiracy world but in this case I am quite alarmed and angry that if the lab theory is correct it seems China and it's dangerous regime will get away with it. Given the circumstances the least they should have done was to allow a complete and thorough access to both Wuhan (lab , etc) and elsewhere. Although I guess chasing a virus origin is like chasing the wind somewhat. Unless someone comes forward and admits (if there is anything to admit) we will never know. Anyway I am going off topic here so pardon me

Shi Zhengli, the relevant Principal Investigator at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, has reported the results of active investigations into the possibility of a lab leak, and these constitute evidence against a leak (including accidental release of a natural virus from a sample they collected), meaning a lab leak is extremely unlikely.

1) All of her staff had blood drawn in March 2020. These blood samples were tested for antibodies, and the results were negative for antibodies against SARS-CoV-2.

2) A search through all of her bat samples for sequences turned up no sequence closer than RaTG13, which at 96% similarity is about 30 years or more in natural evolution from SARS-CoV-2, and even if hastened by lab-evolution is extremely unlikely to be a source of SARS-CoV-2. They have published the full sequence of RaTG13. Their "live" viruses (the most likely sources of any leaks) have only about 80% similarity to SARS-CoV-2.

The above 2 results mean a lab leak is extremely unlikely. They do not rule it out only because no tests are 100%. But they do mean that assigning a considerably higher plausibility to the lab leak theory than the WHO report must be based on unfounded accusations that Shi Zhengli and her colleagues are lying.

However, if you take the trouble to read her https://www.sciencemag.org/sites/default/files/Shi%20Zhengli%20Q&A.pdf, I believe you will find her remarks to be in the character of a careful and honest scientist. Furthermore, the lab has openly published its work for many years. Thus its work has not been any secret. In fact, RaTG13, the virus they have that is closest to SARS-CoV-2 and whose full sequence they published in 2020, had already been previously published as a partial sequence (quite the opposite of doing anything in secret).

I also recommend reading the WHO report, which has additional details. For example, the interview did not state when the antibody testing was carried out. That detail is in the Annex to the WHO report. Note also that the WHO report did not rule out a lab leak, and said that it would be worth investigating further if new evidence came to light.

 

[PeroK]

Cases going through the roof in June to a high of 54,000 cases in a day but it looks that has changed.
Consecutive days of decreasing numbers and we have dropped to 33,000. The numbers always yo-yo before and after the weekend but this was Thurs drop and again Friday.
Perok hinted similar and he is London based.
Am I being premature? @PeroK

We'll have to wait and see which way it goes. I think it's clear that the initial wave of the Delta variant is past its peak. But, we had a big change this week with a general lifting of restrictions. We may be lucky.

I read a cynical news story this morning that claims that the government's plan is to achieve herd immunity as quickly as possible by letting the Delta variant infect as many unvaccinated people as possible! It may be more simply that Boris likes to gamble.

The government has recently revised the UK population figures using the 2020 Census data. The adult population has fallen by one million from the previous estimate. That means that, in fact, 88% of the adult population has had at least one jab; and 70% have had both - which represents a small but significant increase

 

[.Scott]

In Alabama, a doctor has been telling her COVID-19 patients that it is too late to get the vaccine, and she tells some before they are intubated.

Here is a Business Insider article that describes a very similar situation at a Florida hospital.

The unnamed nurse, who works at the Baptist Medical Center in Jacksonville, Florida, said that patients, the overwhelming majority of whom are unvaccinated, are "at a loss" for what they can do to stay alive.

"Every single day... you're getting ready to intubate the patient in ICU, which means putting them on a ventilator, and they say, 'If I get the vaccine now, can I not go on the ventilator?'" the nurse told CNN's Randi Kaye.

 

[.Scott]

"... A few days later when I call time of death,” continued Cobia on Facebook, “I hug their family members and I tell them the best way to honor their loved one is to go get vaccinated and encourage everyone they know to do the same.”

I got my annual physical just a few days ago. COVID was brought up and my doctor and myself talked about trying to convince people to get vaccinated. I told him there were quite a few people that I had talked to about this - but we both agreed he had a lot more experience. He was clearly frustrated with his lack of ability to convince people. I told him I was resorting to the very blunt "Don't put your life in your own hands, it isn't working. Trust me. Get vaccinated" approach.

Neither of us brought up this method (family of deceased) of recruitment.

 

[artis]

@atyy Well I am speculating ofcourse not saying it for a fact but I guess I am the only one here who has actually lived in the former USSR so I have some experience with totalitarian and ideological governments and their tactics. Surely I don't disagree that the official reports and claims from people like Shi Zhengli don't prove a lab leak, and trust me even if there was one they would never say. To think that they would just come out and say "yeah ooops we had some secret research and now we screwed up" is dreaming.
The Ratg 13 cases have popped up before in China were some miners fell seriously ill and some died.
Well we don't know for now all I'm saying is that China is not exactly a democracy or transparent for that matter, it's essentially a USSR 2.0 version with capitalist economic tendencies but other tactics are quite similar in many cases. Like for example back in the USSR any even low priority research whether biological or technical was under the supervision of the military and intelligence apparatus. Every serious research was first viewed as a possible military or defense tool and only then applied to civilian use if possible. I hope you guys are not being naive thinking that in China this is otherwise somehow...

I do reserve the option I am wrong but I do also remain skeptical until proven otherwise. China has a long and steady track record of intellectual property theft , spying, covert operations and very little transparency, human rights violations etc etc the list goes on.
Anyway if the mods allow for it maybe we can one day have a sane and detailed thread about the possibilities of a lab leak and gain of function research in general.
One way or the other I myself would love to learn more about it anyway.
You know... to create my own "bedroom leak" virus PS. Not denying that viruses can jump into circulation suddenly all by themselves, The Spanish flu comes to mind as a good example back in times when no country on Earth had anything close to the capability to research or leak something like that.

 

[artis]

Just to throw a little bit of info on top of what I said.


Here is a paper where Shi Zhengli is credited together with Zhou Yusen the man believed to be working for the military,
https://journals.asm.org/doi/10.1128/JVI.02015-19

And there seems to be a patent for a Covid vaccine back in 2020 February.
https://nypost.com/2021/06/04/chine...accine-patent-after-contagion-emerged-report/

https://in.news.yahoo.com/chinese-m...KBMzPGpRF_vGfvK2BdRKTROpccElw01H7eb3136umJv_EAs I said we don't know and maybe will never know but I would take everything Shi Zhengli or any other Chinese official say with a "bag of salt", I hope I don't have to remind anyone we are talking about a country where being in political opposition can result in being jailed or assassinated.

 

[.Scott]

Sadly there are idiots like that out there. In fact, a friend of mine on facebook from Brisbane said he took 99% of the ingredients out of the vaccine - and what was left? Baby blood. He's too religious for me.

The mRNA vaccines were develop and are manufactured without human components. However, before human trials, they were tested on two human cell lines. Using the Catholic spin (my wife is Catholic and we have raised our family Catholic), those cell lines are derived from lung tissue from a British baby boy (MRC-5) and a Swedish baby girl (WI-38). To be clear, they were each fetuses of about 3 months development.

Brisbane would be the AstroZenca vaccine (AZD1222) which (like the mRNA vaccines) was developed without human components. It was tested against MRC-5 and is manufactured using the HEK 293 cell line, nominally derived from human fetal kidney cells but on subsequent study are more likely from an immature fetal human neuron.
There are no HEK 293 cells in AZD1222, but one could imagine that there might be cellular fragments that might make it through the manufacturing process. Still, when someone becomes infected with COVID by inhaling the virus - no one is concerned that they have also likely inhaled human products - cell fragments or whatever. And the virus itself (created by human cells) is also not considered a human product.

The Catholic view on COVID vaccination is that it is imperative to avoid passing along the virus. Given that, vaccines not developed or manufactured using a human cell line (such as the mRNAs) should be chosen over the others.

My personal view of this Catholic tentativeness with the non-mRNA vaccines is that it is not generally applied to the most central tenets of Catholicism.

From what I read I believe that fetal cells are used because they are "new" and haven't divided yet beyond the usable limit and are best suited for growing human infecting viruses?
The thing I don't know is how many are needed to produce such a vast amount of vaccines given the virus has to be grown constantly otherwise it would run out of virus?

As I described above, when used at all, the human cell lines are used in the early testing (WI-38 and MRC-5) and later the manufacturing (HEK293) of the vaccine. The cell lines use in the manufacturing of the vaccines have modified genetics that apparently eliminate the pre-programmed cell aging problem.

 

[artis]

Truth be told the children were aborted anyway so once they are dead what is the difference where their cells go... better for helping humanity than to simply be thrown out. Not disrespecting anyone with certain religion I myself am religious in a way but I do think that sometimes (more like a lot of times) religion tries to resort to useless arguments for the sake of appearances. That's why I like faith better than religion.

 

[.Scott]

I don't know whether this makes me part of the conspiracy world but in this case I am quite alarmed and angry that if the lab theory is correct it seems China and it's dangerous regime will get away with it. Given the circumstances the least they should have done was to allow a complete and thorough access to both Wuhan (lab , etc) and elsewhere. Although I guess chasing a virus origin is like chasing the wind somewhat. Unless someone comes forward and admits (if there is anything to admit) we will never know.

There are several possible "Wuhan lab / COVID" scenarios:

1) Wuhan lab was established because it is where viruses (such as SAR-1) have naturally developed in the past - and so it is a logical place to do research on that phenomenon: No SARS-2 escaped from this lab at all. I find this the most likely scenario.

2) After SARS-2 was already extant, it was brought to the lab for study and some escaped: Plausible, but unlikely. In any case, this would not put China at odds with the world. We would all share a common interest in making very certain that no such unintentional escape ever occurs again. And I do not doubt that the Chinese are very capable of setting and enforcing effective safety standards.

3) Wuhan lab studies include research into how China might defend itself against a nationally-sponsored viral attack and COVID escaped during this process: I don't doubt that China is very interested in its vulnerability to a nationally-sponsored viral attack, but the development and subsequent escape of COVID-19 impresses me as a highly far-flung possibility.

4) Wuhan lab studies include the offensive weaponization of viruses and COVID escaped during this process: China is certainly in no position to attack with a weaponized virus - and it certainly would never put such a lab in the south-eastern part of the country - the part that is most congested and most vulnerable. Given the SARS-1 experience, China would have no illusion about keeping any potent respiratory virus from coming back to their shores.

 

[atyy]

The Ratg 13 cases have popped up before in China were some miners fell seriously ill and some died.

It is not clear how the miners died. Nonetheless, there doesn't seem to have been any suspicious secrecy here. That Shi Zhengli's group collected samples from a mineshaft because miners working there had died and they suspected infection with an unknown virus was revealed by Shi Zhengli herself in April 2020. It is known from the Institute's pre-pandemic published papers that they collected samples from many places with the purpose of finding new viruses that may be able to cause a pandemic. Their papers include reports of antibodies in humans indicating infection by unknown coronaviruses - while these cases did not die - it shows that they were not hiding that had been previous infection of people by unknown viruses, and they explicitly stated that this may mean that future infections by unknown viruses could have pandemic potential.

 

[atyy]

And there seems to be a patent for a Covid vaccine back in 2020 February.
https://nypost.com/2021/06/04/chine...accine-patent-after-contagion-emerged-report/

https://in.news.yahoo.com/chinese-m...KBMzPGpRF_vGfvK2BdRKTROpccElw01H7eb3136umJv_E

https://investors.modernatx.com/new...first-participant-dosed-nih-led-phase-1-study
A press release from Moderna stated: "On January 11, 2020, the Chinese authorities shared the genetic sequence of the novel coronavirus. On January 13, 2020 the VRC and Moderna’s infectious disease research team finalized the sequence for the SARS-CoV-2 vaccine and Moderna mobilized toward clinical manufacture. The first clinical batch was completed on February 7, 2020 and underwent analytical testing; it was shipped on February 24, 2020 from Moderna and delivered to NIH from the Company’s manufacturing facility in 42 days from sequence selection."

https://www.markmanadvisors.com/blo...tes-for-moderna-astrazeneca-jampj-and-novovax
It seems the Moderna patent was filed on Feb 28, 2020

 

[Evo]

45% of Americans are STUPID, it just sickens me. (edited)

Among American adults who have not yet received a vaccine, 35% say they probably will not, and 45% say they definitely will not, according to a poll from The Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research. Just 3% say they definitely will get the shots, though another 16% say they probably will.

What's more, 64% of unvaccinated Americans have little to no confidence the shots are effective against variants — including the delta variant that officials say is responsible for 83% of new cases in the U.S. — despite evidence that they offer strong protection

https://news.yahoo.com/ap-norc-poll-most-unvaccinated-144516547.html

 

[nsaspook]

Americans are STUPID, it just sickens me.
https://news.yahoo.com/ap-norc-poll-most-unvaccinated-144516547.html

Too broad a statement. The fully-vaccinated are a very large group of Americans. I've moved beyond the empathy stage for those that chose not to get vaccinated. Point being, it was placed directly in front of them and the no-vaxx minority never bothered while many us took considerable effort to get vaccinated ASAP early in the vaccination effort.

 

[.Scott]

Americans are STUPID, it just sickens me.

Present company excepted?

 

[Evo]

Present company excepted?

I edited it.

More about why Americans aren't getting vaccinated. Do other countries have this problem with people refusing vaccinations?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/florida-tops-nation-covid-cases-151309966.html

 

[Tom.G]

In a casual discussion with a Doctor, their observation was "Darwinism in action."

 

[atyy]

More about why Americans aren't getting vaccinated. Do other countries have this problem with people refusing vaccinations?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/florida-tops-nation-covid-cases-151309966.html

Yes, unfortunately, Singapore has a problem. In the 70+ age group, vaccination coverage is only about 70% - way below the US coverage of 88% for 65+. The Health Ministry is trying to fix this big problem with more advertising including appeals from the Prime Minister, and house-to-house visits (though currently these are mainly for housebound seniors). Vaccine uptake rates among younger age groups seems to be fine so far (but we have to see, as these have only started being vaccinated more recently), so it seems to be a different problem from the US where vaccine hesitancy is mainly in non-seniors (but in a sense, our problem is worse, since the US has seniors much more well vaccinated than us). I thought we should just train kindergarten kids to secretly jab their grandparents at home, like a "Little Ninja roleplay" (it's obvious I'm not going to allowed to work in the health ministry any time soon ).

 

[StevieTNZ]

In a casual discussion with a Doctor, their observation was "Darwinism in action."

I remember at the end of an appointment with my psychiatrist, I asked whether he had been given the shot. My social worker was in attendance and he's shared with me his experience getting the jab - no problems. Thinking it'd be a straighforward answer, I ask Dr Garcia 'have you had your shot yet?' to which, while continuing to type my prescription up, he replied 'that's private personal medical information'. I thought good grief... a yes or no would have sufficed.