Is it immoral to sell kids on the military?

[loseyourname]

Perhaps those saying we should have a draft because we need more soldiers over there to either alleviate the burden on our current soldiers or make the war directly affect more Americans should enlist and help out - unless, of course, you are too old. I suspect that with all the health problems I've had recently, I probably wouldn't even pass a physical, but even if I could, I wouldn't be enlisting.

 

[Skyhunter]

Perhaps those saying we should have a draft because we need more soldiers over there to either alleviate the burden on our current soldiers or make the war directly affect more Americans should enlist and help out - unless, of course, you are too old. I suspect that with all the health problems I've had recently, I probably wouldn't even pass a physical, but even if I could, I wouldn't be enlisting.

I think that anyone who supports the war should volunteer. Then we won't need a draft.

None of the people making the decisions have combat experience, and most don't even have military experience.

It is easy to have a war when it is not personal.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

So I got everything I wanted from the Navy plus something that I did not plan on, a career.

Of course, IIRC, you barely missed going to Vietnam.

 

[Mk]

Although the title is highly decieving, i get what you're saying. Oddly enough my nephew is a marine reservist and let's see..

Mental problems? No.
Alcoholism? No (but then again he drank before even considering the military)
Lack of respect for life? No (and of course that's just your personal opinion)
Brainwashing? Dream on.
Four years of utter boredom? Well he's been pretty bored so far. Oddly enough, he can't wait to go to Iraq but they have been delaying their call-up for i think 18 months or so already.
Flag draped coffins? It's a military, people die, want us to disband it and go back to the stone age?

Whats with all the uninformed ideological rants lately.

And not just people die, they die to preserve America's freedoms and what it stands for, which are freedoms! The same for all nations that have a military. They fight so you can be able to say that they have mental problems, so you can say how much they waste their life. I have some friends as well that can't wait to get back to Iraq. Some of them are happy as clams doing that.

[edited out by myself]
And like Integral's account of his experience in the US Navy, you can get something out of it.

Also Ivan mentioned that people in the military have no respect for life. Have you ever been shot enough times to have almost died? Well, one is good enough for me to get the point. Have you seen a friend perish in a firey explosion? If something like that happened to you, would you not give a sh*t about living? Or would you appreciate life more, give more than you take? Carpe diem? Live like you were dying perhaps?

cult style brainwashing [patriotism]

You just compared patriotism, the love for your country, to cult brainwashing. Love and brainwashing don't mean the same-thing no matter how much you twist it. I wonder if you've ever stayed extended periods of time outside. Have you visited a "third-world" village? A second-world (if there is such a term)? You need a reality check, perhaps love your rich and prosperous life more.

I'd start with the fact that he never refers to fallen sons by name, to their parents.

He's too busy to learn every person's name!

I see no honor in joining the military at present, (although I hold my father's service in the highest regard.

What would your father think if he were alive now about you thinking there is no honor in the military?

The invasion of Iraq isn't, wasn't, and never will be [justified].

This has not been proven as fact, and is only your opinion. You should not hold your opinion as fact.

I think that anyone who supports the war should volunteer. Then we won't need a draft.

There is no draft, it is all voluntary.

None of the people making the decisions have combat experience, and most don't even have military experience.
It is easy to have a war when it is not personal.

Sorry maybe I misread, but there is a ranking system, you start out at the bottom and move to the top. And you would rather have everyone go into combat than stay out of Iraq's business?

:zzz: I still wish you long days, pleasent nights,

Mk

 

[devil-fire]

the difference between advertising for a regular job and for joining the military is the hazards and stresses involved. i can't think of any more hazardous an occupation then the armed forces. i don't like how the armed forces usually tries to pitch enlistment based on 'its great fun and it'll build character' and don't mention post traumatic stress syndrome.

for the army to recruit young people and for it to be morally agreeable in my eyes there should be tests that demonstrate the enlistee's understanding of the potential and likely risks they are signing up for. if they do this already that's great, iv just never heard of it.

i don't think a draft should ever be used in an educated democracy. if people wanted to go fight for their country's foreign agendas then they have the option, otherwise its time to change the education system so people understand why its important they fight.

 

[russ_watters]

Pointless, random, ranting neohippieism. Just wanted to let you all know I'd seen it but won't even bother trying to argue against it. At face value, it should be clear there is no need.

 

[FredGarvin]

I think so. I see commercial after commercial about how the military will do this or that or the other thing for a person - provide education, skills, travel, teach you to look a man in the eye and shake hands firmly, - and I have seen the results - mental problems, alcoholism, a lack of respect for life, cult style brainwashing [patriotism], not to mention four years of utter boredom by most accounts. Oh yes, and then there's the flag draped coffins.
I came within a few hours of signing a six year active duty commitment as a Nuclear Officer in the Navy, and I am very thankful that at the last possible moment, someone talked me out of joining.

Well, I think this happens to be, at best, a huge sweeping statement that has very little basis in truth other than the limited exposure Ivan has had.

So let's see here, we have never seen alcoholism, mental problems or premature deaths ANYWHERE else other than the military? Of course, we don't see people being burried in civilian life on the news every day and they don't get flags, so I guess that's not worth mentioning.

I, like Integral, owe a lot to my stay inthe Army. I saw what combat I did and I did EXACTLY what the commercials said I would do. I travelled, I lived in Germany for 3 years, I made money, I saved enough for college (which my family could not afford) and I made some very good friends that I still am in contact to this day with. Most of all, it also gave me my career. I can not imagine what my life would have been like without my stint. For every person Ivan saw in that VA hospital, I would bet there are 100 that benefitted greatly from their service and 1000 that really could have taken it or left it, but are not traumatized in any way.

This thread reminds me of the idiots who joined the reserves or National Guard for the selfish reasons of some extra money and the GI bill. Oh, you mean I have to do what the government said I may have to do? What they trained me to do? Time to complain and become a concientous objector.

I think this thread is inappropriate at best until Ivan backs up his claims with anything other than his own opinions. Nowhere other than the GD forum would this be tolerated.

 

[Bystander]

1961 --- "... pay any price, bear any burden ..."
1965 --- "Hell no. (They) won't go."

2001 --- No particularly memorable words.
2005 --- The "instant gratification," full diaper lib crowd is right on schedule.

Wonder what math department they're planning on blowing up this time around.

S'pose any mayor in the country is going to be willing to host the democratic convention in '08?

Instead of Cooper-Church what're we going to get? Kennedy-Feinstein? Or, maybe Clinton-Kennedy? Clinton-Kennedy-Feinstein?

Sit through the same snivelling two or three times (the first time was boring as hell), and it's no wonder no one takes libs or dems seriously.

 

[BobG]

I think so. I see commercial after commercial about how the military will do this or that or the other thing for a person - provide education, skills, travel, teach you to look a man in the eye and shake hands firmly, - and I have seen the results - mental problems, alcoholism, a lack of respect for life, cult style brainwashing [patriotism], not to mention four years of utter boredom by most accounts. Oh yes, and then there's the flag draped coffins.
I came within a few hours of signing a six year active duty commitment as a Nuclear Officer in the Navy, and I am very thankful that at the last possible moment, someone talked me out of joining.

Mental problems and alcoholism among military members is about the same as that for the civilian population. It does receive a little more attention in the military because of its cost - 25% of military members that develop mental disorders or came into the service with mental disorders are out of the service within 6 months. Losing the investment in training and experience is more expensive than the treatment. http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3912/is_200303/ai_n9195957

 

[pattylou]

What would your father think if he were alive now about you thinking there is no honor in the military?

We have a picture of my father at (or after) the battle of the bulge. He is completely unrecognizable in the photo.

His sister said to him some years ago "That's not you!" and he replied in a disturbed voice: "War changes you, Lina."

My father would understand my position completely.

 

[alexandra]

You did have a good reason and what you posted is fine by me. What I don't get is why you don't challenge Ivan's points when they are clearly very weak?

The question Ivan asked was as in the subject line above: "Is it immoral to sell kids on the military?" This question invites a response based on opinions rather than on evidence and fact (morality is subjective). My opinion regarding this issue, and I have no facts to back it up, is that yes, it is immoral to sell kids on the military (and, in my opinion, on religion as well). It is immoral because the kids have not had enough life experience to know what they are getting into - they are incapable of making an informed decision about something that is very important because it is going to shape what sort of person they become in the future (it is not relatively harmless advertising, after all, like adverts urging kids to buy a cd or computer game). My personal, subjectively-defined morals go against training kids to be killers. That is what people are trained to do in the military - by definition. Perhaps I'm wrong about this last statement? I think not - but I am sure people will let me know if I am wrong
alex

 

[alexandra]

This thread reminds me of the idiots who joined the reserves or National Guard for the selfish reasons of some extra money and the GI bill. Oh, you mean I have to do what the government said I may have to do? What they trained me to do? Time to complain and become a concientous objector.

In my opinion (note the word 'opinion'), this is exactly what Ivan was getting at: advertising the military as a way of gaining an education, traveling, etc (rather than as an institution that involves risking your life and learning how to kill others in a war situation) is exactly what leads to what you call 'the idiots' and their 'selfish reasons'. They are not idiots precisely because recruitment advertising is not honest: they were not told they would be required to do these things. They were promised a holiday and a free ride!

 

[Townsend]

That is what people are trained to do in the military - by definition. Perhaps I'm wrong about this last statement? I think not - but I am sure people will let me know if I am wrong
alex

The only gun I ever fired in the line of duty was a .22 caliber rifle at a test range. I was trained to be an aircraft mechanic and to be teach people coming out of boot camp how to be aircraft mechanics. After over 8 years I could never see another jet and I wouldn't mind it at all...it's just not my cup of tea. I could have easily made good living from my training and experience if it was something I would have liked to do. There are thousands of jobs in the military that have no killing as a part of your training. For example, the Navy corpsmen are trained to save lives, not kill.

Those are some facts for you to consider while forming your opinion.

 

[Townsend]

In my opinion (note the word 'opinion'), this is exactly what Ivan was getting at: advertising the military as a way of gaining an education, traveling, etc (rather than as an institution that involves risking your life and learning how to kill others in a war situation) is exactly what leads to what you call 'the idiots' and their 'selfish reasons'. They are not idiots precisely because recruitment advertising is not honest: they were not told they would be required to do these things. They were promised a holiday and a free ride!

If that is what Ivan was getting at then I would have agreed with him from the start. Like I said...I wish they were honest about what they are selling to kids and I would agree that they are not. I would like to see that change...

But that does not make it immoral to sell it kids...it makes it immoral to lie to kids about what they are getting into. Two very different things.

 

[FredGarvin]

In my opinion (note the word 'opinion'), this is exactly what Ivan was getting at: advertising the military as a way of gaining an education, traveling, etc (rather than as an institution that involves risking your life and learning how to kill others in a war situation) is exactly what leads to what you call 'the idiots' and their 'selfish reasons'. They are not idiots precisely because recruitment advertising is not honest: they were not told they would be required to do these things. They were promised a holiday and a free ride!

It is your opinion, but my opinion is that it is absolutely WRONG. The first year I was in training I served with both active duty and reservists. Every day we were drilled with the idea of why we were there and why we were learning what we were. Make no mistake, you knew that you were going into learn how to be a soldier. Also, despite popular belief, there are a lot of opportunities for people to get out in the initial training phases. Every single person who goes into the military knows that they may be called upon to go to war. I defy anyone to try to tell me that the only reason they were in basic training or advanced training was because the government had to have you do "something" to earn all that money you were promised. I call those people idiots and selfish because they knew they could be called, but they decided to play the odds for some easy money and perks and lost.

 

[Entropy]

The only gun I ever fired in the line of duty was a .22 caliber rifle at a test range. I was trained to be an aircraft mechanic and to be teach people coming out of boot camp how to be aircraft mechanics. After over 8 years I could never see another jet and I wouldn't mind it at all...it's just not my cup of tea. I could have easily made good living from my training and experience if it was something I would have liked to do. There are thousands of jobs in the military that have no killing as a part of your training. For example, the Navy corpsmen are trained to save lives, not kill.

I was wondering. Did you get to choose to be a machanic? I'm curious as to exactly how people get certain jobs once they sign up.

 

[Townsend]

I defy anyone to try to tell me that the only reason they were in basic training or advanced training was because the government had to have you do "something" to earn all that money you were promised. I call those people idiots and selfish because they knew they could be called, but they decided to play the odds for some easy money and perks and lost.

Recruiters will and have lied to people to get them to join the military. This is a fact and that is what I have a problem with. I have heard recruiters tell kids that they will not likely have to live on a ship or go over seas...the statements are lies and they shouldn't be try to trick people into thinking it's a joy ride.

 

[Townsend]

I was wondering. Did you get to choose to be a machanic? I'm curious as to exactly how people get certain jobs once they sign up.

My choices were limited by the fact that I was a bad boy...in other words I couldn't get a security clearance. Beyond that I was able to choose from a list of jobs where the Navy needed people with my aptitude and abilities.

For example, they wouldn’t want me to be a CS (mess specialist) because I scored relatively well in mechanical aptitude.

But you don’t have to join unless you are happy with the contract they give you. If you want to be an aircraft mechanic and they won’t let, just walk out. They cannot stop you. So the choice is really up to you.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Recruiters will and have lied to people to get them to join the military. This is a fact and that is what I have a problem with. I have heard recruiters tell kids that they will not likely have to live on a ship or go over seas...the statements are lies and they shouldn't be try to trick people into thinking it's a joy ride.

That is partly what happened in my case. The recruiter didn't really lie but he made very misleading statements. Also, a few issues came up such as, the likely results if I ran into problems in school for some reason. I could end up anywhere doing anything with a six year commitment. Beyond that he made the nearly certain sub duty sound like a vacation. The person that I mentioned who talked me out of joining had been in the Navy and had known submariners. The reality was nothing like that described by the recruiter. And if I didn't qualify psychologically for sub duty, which was likely, I would spend 2 years in school and then 4 years in the bowels of a carrier. Again, not what I had been told. The bottom line is that I walked away feeling as though I very nearly made a huge mistake based on a cheesy sales pitch.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Okay let's take one thing at a time.

True or false: Boot camp is designed to reduce a person to the lowest level and then build them back up with the desired mindset.

True or false: This is precisely how cults brainwash their members. In fact, this is one clue used to identifiy cults.

 

[Smurf]

Thats two things at a time.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Thats two things at a time.

I used two sentences.

 

[Smurf]

three, actually.

 

[BobG]

I was wondering. Did you get to choose to be a machanic? I'm curious as to exactly how people get certain jobs once they sign up.

Depends. You can join with a 'guaranteed' career field (1C600 - Space Operations Specialist, for example), or you can join with a 'guaranteed' range of career fields (Open Electronics, for example), or you can join with an open career field (you get whatever job the military gives you).

If you have a guaranteed career field and they can't give that to you, you can leave - they'll even pay your plane ticket back home ... or you can choose a different career field, which is what most do since it's towards the end of basic training that you would find out that you're not qualified for the job (security) or that the job is overfilled (too many passed the security screening) or some other reason.

Your chances of getting the job they guaranteed is extremely good, especially if the job requires a high ASVAB score. They don't just yank your chain for the heck of it. It's just the guarantee is more like the money back guarantee your store gives you - instead of making satisfaction 100% certain, it just makes sure you don't suffer a major loss if they can't live up to their end of the bargain.

 

[BobG]

Okay let's take one thing at a time.
True or false: Boot camp is designed to reduce a person to the lowest level and then build them back up with the desired mindset.
True or false: This is precisely how cults brainwash their members. In fact, this is one clue used to identifiy cults.

The first: Maybe in the Marines. Maybe even in the Army. I doubt it. It's false for the Air Force.

The second: Maybe. I think that's more commonly used to break down prisoners of war during interrogations and can work, provided the desired mindset isn't one that requires much complicated thought.

More common among groups is the practice of making sure the joining process is an extreme ordeal. The greater ordeal a person had to endure to join an organization, the more initial loyalty they feel towards it (a self-fulfilling prophecy that going through the ordeal was worth it). That applies to some military groups (I've read of a pretty painful initiation for a paratrooper unit where they slam the wings onto your uniform without the little frogs on the back). It also used to be common for many fraternities. That still wouldn't be an accurate description of Air Force basic training, but the Air Force is probably pretty far from being the toughest basic training in the military. It's stressful, to be sure - they might give you a 341 (a demerit) or you might get guard duty in the middle of the night - but it can be endured.

 

[MaxS]

You certainly don't have the decency to think about something beside politics long enough to realize there are good reasons to join the military even if it is during an unjust war.

That is a big enough difference that I don't we are anything alike.

This is some insanely fallacious reasoning.

By volunteering to join the military service of an aggressive and imperialistic nation, you are supporting that nation's policies.

By joining during an unjust war (as all wars of aggression are unjust) you are supporting that war, whether actively or by proxy.

I understand that part of the oath military service(men/women) take is an oath to uphold the law of the land (the constitution of the United States of America). If this oath were taken seriously, there should have been a military coup in this nation - the commander in chief (and not just this one, almost all of the presidents in this nation's history) have taken us into an ILLEGAL WAR (BY UNITED STATES LAW). Congress has made no formal declaration - we are not legally at war. But everyone knows its a war.

Whether or not you care to admit it, or whether you are even privy to such knowledge (of the constitution and hopefully the preamble to the declaration), by joining up you are very much supporting these policies.

This nationalistic line of reasoning can easily be extended to justify the service of Nazi soldiers. No doubt you would make a "good German" Townsend.

 

[Echo 6 Sierra]

Maybe in the Marines.

This is true. You will NEVER be able to do ANYTHING correctly. Everything you do is way too slow for drill instructors and they SEE EVERYTHING! You are kept exhausted from the night you get there and everything is fed to you at almost a Clockwork Orange pace. Marines are typically still gunshy for a few months after bootcamp. The Discovery channel shows on Marine Corps Boot Camp are cute. Imagine, if you will, having a sadistic bigger brother or sister while mom & dad going away for 4 months and you aren't allowed to contact them except for one day not at your choosing. You can write and tell them everything but there's still nothing they can do.

I've read of a pretty painful initiation for a paratrooper unit where they slam the wings onto your uniform without the little frogs on the back.

Marines too. Then they started making the chevrons out of plastic and that ended that until there were too many complaints because the plastic ones were just cruddy. Once the "rite" is over you are instantly treated differently. Ask any Marine Corporal who just had his chevrons and blood-stripes pinned on, both on the same day.
To stay on topic: I think more than anything, the military is an economic draft and preys on the uninformed. If someone had told me that in college girls get really, really drunk and do crazy things, I would have NEVER joined the military. Hey, I led a sheltered childhood, sue me.

 

[edward]

The things that bother me about current recruitment are:

Sign up bonuses of up to $16,000 are being offered to new recruits who will sign up for a combat MOS. To me this is simply "buying" recruits from low income and underpriviledged areas.

The No Child Left Behind Act, requires schools who receive federal funds to give their students personal information to military recruiters. The schools in wealthy areas don't need the federal funds.

These practices result in the same economic disparity in the military that existed during the Vietnam era.

SEC. 9528. ARMED FORCES RECRUITER ACCESS TO STUDENTS AND STUDENT RECRUITING INFORMATION.

(a) POLICY-

(1) ACCESS TO STUDENT RECRUITING INFORMATION- Notwithstanding section 444(a)(5)(B) of the General Education Provisions Act and except as provided in paragraph (2), each local educational agency receiving assistance under this Act shall provide, on a request made by military recruiters or an institution of higher education, access to secondary school students names, addresses, and telephone listings.

 

[Skyhunter]

I went to a vocational school in 11th grade, so I had to take the ASVAB test. I scored an overall 98 and had a lot of visits and calls from recruiters. I didn't join out of high school. A few years later my sister was considering joining the Air force, and the recruiters came across my test scores again.

What decided me against the military was when they told me I would not be cannon fodder, because of my intelligence and proficiency with computers.

I don't want anyone to be cannon fodder. I felt that the mindset where some human lives were expendible was inherently flawed.

 

[Smurf]

I was thinking about joining the military out of high school. I'm glad I didn't.

 

[edward]

There is nothing wrong with the military as long as you know up front what you are getting into. The Army's recent recruiting tactics woould make a used car salesman blush. There is a lot of fine print that many young people will miss. The "Ready Reserve clause" is a good example.

Another current tactic is to try to get a recruit to re-negotiate his/her enlistment term during basic training.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Okay let's take one thing at a time.
True or false: Boot camp is designed to reduce a person to the lowest level and then build them back up with the desired mindset.
True or false: This is precisely how cults brainwash their members. In fact, this is one clue used to identifiy cults.

I think it depends on what exactly you classify as brain washing. If you make the definition loose enough you could fit all kinds of things under the umbrella of brain washing whether they are benefitial or not. Then you have the real question here "Is the 'brain washing' the military engages in harmful or beneficial?".

Personally just about every military person I have met were good people. I think all of the ones I have met that weren't booted out for some reason or another felt they were better for it and even some of the ones that were kicked out felt that way too.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

It is immoral because the kids have not had enough life experience to know what they are getting into - they are incapable of making an informed decision about something that is very important because it is going to shape what sort of person they become in the future.

So we should keep those damned college recruiters away from them too eh?

They are not idiots precisely because recruitment advertising is not honest: they were not told they would be required to do these things. They were promised a holiday and a free ride!

As with everyone else here I will agree that the way recruiters go after these kids is pretty rediculous but I would have to say that anyone who thinks they are in for a paradise cruise after boot camp is just as rediculous. And as far as I know you are not fully obligated until after you have completed boot camp. I may be wrong about that but that is what I have been told.

The No Child Left Behind Act, requires schools who receive federal funds to give their students personal information to military recruiters. The schools in wealthy areas don't need the federal funds.
These practices result in the same economic disparity in the military that existed during the Vietnam era.

The law has been for quite some time that every male by the age of 18 must register themselves with the military one way or another.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

One quick adder: Watch the latest Army commercial very closely - the one with the kid talking to his dad. The father says, "but it's the Army", and the kid responds, "no, it's...". And again the dad says, "but it's the Army", and again the kid says, "no, it's...". So literally, twice, the kid says that the Army is not the Army.

Does this remind anyone of any particular novel?

Note also how the kid has the real insight and the dad just doesn't know better.

 

[loseyourname]

I went to a vocational school in 11th grade, so I had to take the ASVAB test. I scored an overall 98 and had a lot of visits and calls from recruiters. I didn't join out of high school. A few years later my sister was considering joining the Air force, and the recruiters came across my test scores again.

What decided me against the military was when they told me I would not be cannon fodder, because of my intelligence and proficiency with computers.
I don't want anyone to be cannon fodder. I felt that the mindset where some human lives were expendible was inherently flawed.

Ha ha, that same thing happened to me. I took the ASVAB and don't remember what I scored, but I must have impressed the Navy recruiter. When I went to see him, he was telling me about all the bonuses I would get, and showed me the new car and speaker system he bought with his own. He told me he thought I would be well-suited to nuclear engineering and suggested I work on submarine reactors. I was actually pretty close to doing it, and my father (who was disqualified from military service because of color-blindness) talked me out of it.

I have to admit, I wanted to do it. I love submarine movies, and my grandfather served in the Navy during WWII. He was shipwrecked in the Pacific for two months and it's great hearing the story of how he and his mates lived on a raft eating fish and drinking their blood. I'm so damn weak-minded romanticizing all of this military stuff. Part of me still wants to join the JAG Corps when I get out of school.