Is Obama fueling the Gate's incident?

[j93]

1. The cop didn't know it was his house, Harvard ID didn't clarify that, =

Check the mail (ask for mail) combined with Harvard ID. Robert Gates is receiving mail at this address.

 

[turbo]

Turbo, you have in poker what we call a 'tell'. It's a sign that gives away someone is bluffing. Your "tell" is using irrelevant stories to try and support your unsubstantiated statements.

You know nothing about me, Cy. The accounting is entirely accurate. You know nothing about the power of small-town cops and their prejudices 40 years ago. Growing up in wealth and privilege has insulated you from that. I was carrying a Gibson B25-12 string circa 1962 or so that was crucial to making my living as I was working my way through college. I was told to open that case with no probable cause by a cop who profiled me according to my appearance.

 

[Cyrus]

You know nothing about me, Cy. The accounting is entirely accurate. You know nothing about the power of small-town cops and their prejudices 40 years ago. Growing up in wealth and privilege has insulated you from that. I was carrying a Gibson B25-12 string circa 1962 or so that was crucial to making my living as I was working my way through college. I was told to open that case with no probable cause by a cop who profiled me according to my appearance.

Ok, no one's talking about small town cops from 40 years ago, right? You just gave off another tell with a second irrelevant story.

You people are arguing out of ignorance. No one has any facts, yet you all are so *sure* about what you post against each other.

A police officers account holds up in court. That's a fact. The phone call was made for a crime. That's a fact. The police officers partner was there and reported the same thing. That's a fact.

Anything else is you guys speculating.

 

[Cyrus]

Check the mail (ask for mail) combined with Harvard ID. Robert Gates is receiving mail at this address.

I don't think you should make up advice for police officer on how to do their job. They don't tell you how to do physics.

 

[j93]

The police officers partner was there and reported the same thing. That's a fact.

Nope not a fact, read the report it is basically one long detailed account and a short gloss of events by the other officer.

 

[j93]

I don't think you should make up advice for police officer on how to do their job. They don't tell you how to do physics.

If I was doing a physics problem and had 2+2 = 5, anyone could tell me I was wrong and it should be 4 they don't need to be a physicist . Mail (Bills ) are a common form to check occupation.

 

[turbo]

Ok, no one's talking about small town cops from 40 years ago, right? You just gave off another tell with a second irrelevant story.

You people are arguing out of ignorance. No one has any facts, yet you all are so *sure* about what you post against each other.

A police officers account holds up in court. That's a fact. The phone call was made for a crime. That's a fact. The police officers partner was there and reported the same thing. That's a fact.

Anything else is you guys speculating.

Oh, so you're changing tack once again? The point is that cops are human and they approach their jobs with the prejudices and attitudes that formed them. If you don't think "2 black men are trying to break into a house" is going to get more attention and more aggression than "a couple of white guys are trying to open the door" of a house in a nice neighborhood in Cambridge, you are ignoring a whole lot of context. The cops should have left as soon as the professor ID'd himself, and if they didn't like his protestations, they should have ignored them at a minimum, or identified themselves to the professor with an apology for the mistake in accosting him in his own home.

 

[Cyrus]

Nope not a fact, read the report it is basically one long detailed account and a short gloss of events by the other officer.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4097602514885833865

Go to 9:52

 

[Evo]

Check the mail (ask for mail) combined with Harvard ID. Robert Gates is receiving mail at this address.

The police do not have the right to go through his mail at this point and is not what they would do.

Gates' suspicious and bizarre behaviour, refusing to furnish identifiaction made for a very suuspicius situation, a school ID card that we have no idea how good the photo was as far as making identification possible, I think them calling campus security to make a positive ID was th only sensible thing to do. Why would an innocent homeowner put up such a fight? It makes no sense. For all the poilce know, the real homeoner is being murdered in another part of the house.

 

[waht]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_harvard_scholar_arresting_officer

Many cops are speaking out across the country

It could even set back the progress in race relations that helped Obama become the nation's first African-American president, they said.

"What we don't need is public safety officials across the country second-guessing themselves," said David Holway, president of the International Brotherhood of Police Officers, which represents 15,000 public safety officials around the country. "The president's alienated public safety officers across the country with his comments."

Obama's comments could diminish work done by law enforcement to address racial issues, said James Preston, president of the Fraternal Order of Police Florida State Lodge.

"By reducing all contact between law enforcement and the public to the color of their skin or ethnicity is, in fact, counterproductive to improving relationships," Preston said. "To make such an off-handed comment about a subject without benefit of the facts, in such a public forum, hurts police/community relations and is a setback to all of the years of progress."

 

[Cyrus]

If I was doing a physics problem and had 2+2 = 5, anyone could tell me I was wrong and it should be 4 they don't need to be a physicist . Mail (Bills ) are a common form to check occupation.

Again, don't tell the police how to do their job.

 

[j93]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4097602514885833865

Go to 9:52

Yes I have seen that video before and it also pretty much emphasizes you could be prosecuted despite the fidelity of your statements. This particular section you quote just emphasizes that the police have no obligation to help your case by testifying in your favor even if you are right. This basic just reiterates my point on the police report about it not being the most unbiased document since there is no reason to include anything that might help Gates' case.

 

[mheslep]

I'm recalling the recent back flip rationalizations used by Judge Sotomayor to distance herself from the 'wise Latina' comments, and everyone happy to give her the benefit of the doubt: 'slow down, slow down, look at her record.' Then I reread this transcript, see the condemnation of a cop and immediate connection to racism by the President. Now I'm angry.

that the Cambridge Police acted stupidly in arresting somebody when there was already proof that they were in their own home; and number three, what I think we know separate and apart from this incident is that there is a long history in this country of African Americans and Latinos being stopped by law enforcement disproportionately. That's just a fact.

As you know, Lynn, when I was in the state legislature in Illinois, we worked on a racial profiling bill because there was indisputable evidence that blacks and Hispanics were being stopped disproportionately. And that is a sign, an example of how, you know, race remains a factor in this society. That doesn't lessen the incredible progress that has been made. I am standing here as testimony to the progress that's been made.

And yet the fact of the matter is, is that this still haunts us.

Dam right it does, thanks in no small part to you.

 

[Astronuc]

All very good points. Obama messed this one up. I'm very disappointed. Yes, he's only human and defended his friend without knowing the facts, but not ok considering he's the President and that he made a statement. Wrong.

Back to the incident, Gates went after the cops as they tried to leave to continue his harrassment of them and it was at that point that they did what they rightly should do.

Gates looks like a pompous, arrogant fool.

Yes, I agree. Obama should have declined to make a statement, and at most indicated that it was an unfortunate incident.

In the position of 'not knowing the facts', Obama was careless, and even reckless, to claim the officer 'acted stupidly', when it appears that the officer was acting professionally. Obama should apologize to the officer and the police department.

Gates was not arrested for breaking and entering, but for being out in public yelling at a police officer who was apparently just doing his duty.

It was appropriate for the Cambridge officer to involve the Harvard police given Gates's affiliation. May be the Harvard police had jurisdiction (if it was on campus), otherwise, they Harvard police would be in a better position to take Gates's statement concering the Cambridge officer.

I does appear Gates over-reacted, didn't let it go and took it outside.

 

[j93]

The police do not have the right to go through his mail at this point and is not what they would do.

Gates' suspicious and bizarre behaviour, refusing to furnish identifiaction made for a very suuspicius situation, a school ID card that we have no idea how good the photo was as far as making identification possiblep

I may not be black but a university ID has been good enough for me even against more zealous police.

 

[j93]

Again, don't tell the police how to do their job.

Repeating your statement doesn't make it any truer. As Evo provided a more reasonable argument. However a request for mail to be given doesn't over step any legal bounds..

 

[waht]

Gates' suspicious and bizarre behaviour, refusing to furnish identifiaction made for a very suuspicius situation, a school ID card that we have no idea how good the photo was as far as making identification possible, I think them calling campus security to make a positive ID was th only sensible thing to do. Why would an innocent homeowner put up such a fight? It makes no sense. For all the poilce know, the real homeoner is being murdered in another part of the house.

Exactly, there could be so many different scenarios. Gates should have identified himself calmly and explain his situation, instead of venting from the start.

If a cop entered my house out of nowhere, I would assume something is going on in the neigborhood, and would cooperate, and answer any questions.

 

[turbo]

What is wrong with police acting as adults, backing down when there is no apparent threat, and apologizing for disrupting the life of an ordinary citizen when they have acted appropriatley to what turned out to be a mistaken report? I have many friends in law enforcement and a few relatives, and I would expect that level of conduct from each of them.

I have a biker-buddy who was the head of training for the Mass State Police, and he would have been all over that Cambridge cop for escalating what should have been a routine check-in, check-out call.

 

[j93]

You're right. You know how the police should do their jobs. The same way you know enough facts about the case to be outraged.

I posted the police report while you have posted unrelated video and repeated the "dont tell the police how to do their job" argument.

 

[russ_watters]

Did Gates have any input to the police report? Are police reports always honest and accurate?

Well I guess if we assume the cop was lying, we can assume anything we want happened. I assume an allien spacecraft teleported him through the locked door so he didn't have to break in. Sound good?

I would be VERY ticked off if the cops accosted me in my own home, and I doubt that the resultant police report would reflect well on me.

I tend to think I am more level-headed than that, but I certainly wouldn't fault someone for being upset in that case (I said so in my post). But by the next day, I would hope you would have calmed down enough to apologize for those actions that didn't "reflect well on" you. Gates didn't do that.

The fact that a police officer arrested a black scholar in his own home in a nice neighborhood in Cambridge seems lost on you.

And could you explain precisely why that matters?

The fact that the officer is an expert in racial profiling...

Um, I think you misunderstood that one too - he's an expert in avoiding racial profiling. I can't believe that after all the bad press about racial profiling, you'd think cops would actually teach how to do it! Please, turbo - use some logical thought!

 

[Cyrus]

What is wrong with police acting as adults, backing down when there is no apparent threat, and apologizing for disrupting the life of an ordinary citizen when they have acted appropriatley to what turned out to be a mistaken report? I have many friends in law enforcement and a few relatives, and I would expect that level of conduct from each of them.

I have a biker-buddy who was the head of training for the Mass State Police, and he would have been all over that Cambridge cop for escalating what should have been a routine check-in, check-out call.

And you know the cop did not act as an adult how?

 

[russ_watters]

And why did the cop radio for the Harvard cops and not just drop the incident and leave? Gates was a professor in his own house being accosted by a Cambridge cop. Why should he have to explain himself to Harvard cops?

Again, turbo, read the report. The Harvard cops were called for the professor's benefit, not for the cop's. The Harvard ID didn't have his address on it and the cop called them both to help verify it was his house and because Gates would rather deal with them than the city cop.

 

[j93]

Well I guess if we assume the cop was lying, we can assume anything we want happened. I assume an allien spacecraft teleported him through the locked door so he didn't have to break in. Sound good?

This is true but any logical person would assume what happened it lies in Officer Crowley's account or Gates' account or more likely somewhere in between.

 

[russ_watters]

Yes and still does not change the previous comment because
the reasons still apply ,once they knew there was not a burglary occurring they had no business at the house other than to help escalate the situation.

What you missed in the police report is where it says that the Harvard ID didn't have his address on it. So it was not helpful in determining it wasn't a burglary. The cop says he believed that Gates was the owner of his house, but it was his job to actually verify it.

 

[Cyrus]

I would like to ad, a UID is NOT a valid legal form of ID. I have sat through a class by the county liquor board. It's the first thing they tell you. A UID doesn't mean JACK to a police officer.

 

[turbo]

And you know the cop did not act as an adult how?

Check the news. Taking a Harvard professor out of his own house in handcuffs? Come on. Even you should be able to see how ridiculous that is. As far as I know, when you are being harassed in the US (by a private citizen or a public official) it is not a crime to raise a ruckus. What happened to personal freedoms?

 

[Cyrus]

This is true but any logical person would assume what happened it lies in Officer Crowley's account or Gates' account or more likely somewhere in between.

Gates word doesn't mean a thing against that of a police officers in a court of law.

 

[turbo]

Again, turbo, read the report. The Harvard cops were called for the professor's benefit, not for the cop's. The Harvard ID didn't have his address on it and the cop called them both to help verify it was his house and because Gates would rather deal with them than the city cop.

I read the report. Calling the Harvard police was a further imposition on Professor Gates. The Cambridge cops already knew who he was. Certainly, the Harvard cops already knew who he was.

 

[Cyrus]

Check the news. Taking a Harvard professor out of his own house in handcuffs? Come on. Even you should be able to see how ridiculous that is. As far as I know, when you are being harassed in the US (by a private citizen or a public official) it is not a crime to raise a ruckus. What happened to personal freedoms?

Sorry they didn't have the gold plated Rolls Royce for him.

The problem is your statement "as far as I know", falls short of reality. I look white, and even I don't mouth off to cops.

 

[russ_watters]

As stated in the previous post I read the police report too and there was no mention of physical threat by Gates nor a threat to police property no mention of anything of calling the police racist.

Read it again, this time focusing on lines 6-8 on page 2, where the cop quotes one accusation of racism directly and refers to several others without quoting them.

 

[j93]

What you missed in the police report is where it says that the Harvard ID didn't have his address on it. So it was not helpful in determining it wasn't a burglary. The cop says he believed that Gates was the owner of his house, but it was his job to actually verify it.

Didnt miss that, much of the rest of the post discussed common sense methods to determine occupancy like having photos of around, or maybe seeing a document with name on the harvard ID or asking for a piece of mail.

 

[russ_watters]

Check the mail (ask for mail) combined with Harvard ID. Robert Gates is receiving mail at this address.

Wouldn't a driver's license be just as good as asking for the mail...and more in line with standard operating procedure?

 

[Cyrus]

Didnt miss that, much of the rest of the post discussed common sense methods to determine occupancy like having photos of around, or maybe seeing a document with name on the harvard ID or asking for a piece of mail.

Why does that matter, considering that's not the reason why he was arrested?

 

[j93]

Read it again, this time focusing on lines 6-8 on page 2, where the cop quotes one accusation of racism directly and refers to several others without quoting them.

oops I meant "other than" in that quote you posted that why I then continued to mention why the police don't go around arresting people for making pig noises because it would be petty and impractical and would only fit under disorderly conduct , too many resources used not worth the paperwork.

 

[j93]

Why does that matter, considering that's not the reason why he was arrested?

Not sure why I am responding but that was obviously in response to russ watters comment on ID not having the address.