Is Obama fueling the Gate's incident?

[berkeman]

I wish to apologize myself. If anyone is offended by anything I said, it was certainly not my intention.

(but you didn't post in this long thread...)

 

[russ_watters]

You used the word "accosted" correctly, turbo but that doesn't make your characterization reasonable:

IMO, the officer should have apologized for the mistaken charge and disengaged, even if the professor was "ranting and raving", instead of escalating the situation to an arrest, charge, and booking.

Maybe he would have, had Gates been calm enough for him to get a word in! Gates was so off the handle, the offer needed to take the situation outside just so he could talk on the radio and be heard!

Yeah, Crowley was probably embarrassed by getting dressed down, but that's no reason to arrest the professor.

I doubt he was embarassed because he had nothing to be embarassed for. It's a real stretch to call it a "dress down" - it was more of a berating. Your characterization implies a tone that isn't what actually happened.

The officer's escalation of the situation (vs disengagement) was immature, IMO.

Immature? That's a very odd word choice. But I guess it is explained by this:

I do not hold Gates blameless if he indeed verbally abused the officers...

So really, the issue here is you are still choosing not to believe the officer's account. Turbo: be reasonable. This isn't an argument where weaseling for the sake of being argumentative is going to work. More evidence is going to come out, likely including audio tapes of Gates' ranting. I cannot believe that you are so biased that you actually don't believe Gates was being abusive. Either way, please put some thought into this: you're going to put your foot in your mouth here by weaseling around the facts of what happened. Say it with me: Gates was abusive toward the cop.

I don't think that Obama owes the police union an apology because he's right. The situation should have been resolved quietly, and the arrest, booking, mug shots, etc, amounted to an insult on the professor that was unwarranted, given the circumstances.

Basing that also on your assumption that Gates didn't verbally abuse the cop, I assume? The only thing Obama was right about was that cooler heads should have prevailed: but the only hot head in the incidnet was Gates, so unless he modifies his statement to say that the officer acted stupidly, but Gates acted moronic, there is no way to weasel out of this one.

 

[mheslep]

No dictionary?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/accosted

Which the cop did not do (per the uncontested report) until it got to the point of warning Gates he was being disorderly far down the chain of events. Walking up to a obviously jimmied front door in uniform and requesting an ID or that the occupant step out to the front porch does not meet the definition of 'accosted' in any dictionary. Gates accosted the cop almost immediately.

 

[Evo]

The quality of these varies, but this ireport from CNN is really good: http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-303137

That is excellent.

 

[russ_watters]

I don't feel that way. How about simply overly paranoid and overly sensitive...

During the incident, yes, just overly paranoid and overly sensitive, plus frustrated. But after a night's sleep, he should have realized how wrongly he acted. His actions after the incident show him to be a pompus, arrogant fool.

And in the words of that ireporter I linked: a race pimp.

Apparently they never studied the case of how to handle a black Harvard professor.

Exactly. The problem of racial profiling is a real one, but it seems that for many affluent blacks, the pendulum has swung the opposite direction. That's the discussion in the iReport I linked.

 

[Count Iblis]

Perhaps a better way to say it is:



Would that change your argument, Count?

EDIT -- The president should have held off commenting officially until he read the police report, IMO.

Look, the whole world is watching here, not just the US public. Unless the Prof. had been violent toward the police (and I mean really violent, not the way Russ defines it), there were no grounds to arrest him in any system that is based on freedom and democracy.

Obama was assuming that whatever he did know about the incident constrained what happened to within those limits in which an arrest was not justified. In general, you never know all the exact details. But if the president wants to be able to, say, criticize Iran for arresting a US citizen on frivolous grounds, then he better make sure he can be trusted to have the same kind of judgement in other cases too, whether or not that is politically convenient for the president.

 

[russ_watters]

I'm not making stuff up...

Yeah, you really are, turbo:

...Have you seen the photos of his arrest? There were at least 4 cops surrounding him and he was in handcuffs in the doorway of his house, after he has already identified himself. Then they hauled him into take mug-shots that are also available on the 'web. I think you'd be pretty upset to have law-enforcement officers treat you that way in your own home. [emphasis added]

Gates didn't get upset after being handcuffed, he got upset immediately upon being challenged by the cop. Your characterization of the incident amounts to an intentional obfuscation.

And your misunderstanding of what it meant that the cop was a racial profiling instructor was a classic demonstration of jumping to a rediculous conclusion without putting even a little bit of thought into the issue. It's the stuff conspiracy theory is made of.

 

[russ_watters]

I think there is something we need to clarify about your position here, turbo:

1. Do you believe or are you assuming as a starting point for your argument that Gates did not make racially charged statements toward the officer before showing his driver's license?
2. Do you believe or are you assuming as a starting point for your argument that Gates did not make a "your mamma" insult when the officer asked him to come outside?

In other words, are you assuming as a starting point for your argument that the officer's report was essentially a complete fabrication? You are certainly implying it, and I'd like to clarify specifically if that's what you believe and/or are assuming.

 

[russ_watters]

Something else that has been glossed-over in this incident: the woman who called the police has been called a racist. At this point, we can't know if she is or isn't, but the fact of the matter is that nothing in what we know of what she said/did implies racial intent. Yes, she was wrong about it being a burglary, but despite that, from what we know, she acted perfectly correctly. Furthermore, the backlash against her is going to make people less safe. We already have a problem in this country where people fail to report crimes. What comes of this is that it isn't possible for a white person to report a possible crime by a black person without there being a racist backlash.

I've also let go Gates' outburst as being an understandable result of his frustration and long travel. I'd like to at least clarify if not fully reverse that: even if based on frustration, it is understandable, but it is still completely wrong. I'll go further to say that I used to lock myself out of my car a lot and I've broken into my own house before and I fully understand the level of frustration involved. But I know for certain I would not have reacted the way Gates did. If a cop had challenged me while I was climbing the support post of my 2nd floor deck to get into an unlocked door, I'd have been in a real pickle, because I would have had no way to prove it was my house (my wallet was inside). But I know I would have understood and accepted exactly the situation I was in and I would have acted appropriately. How do I know this? I know it because I'm not a 12 year old and like every other adult, I've dealt with authority figures many times throughout my life. Like every other non-child, I'm responsible and level-headed enough to deal with tough situations gracefully. Gates is a middle-aged child.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Gates is a middle-aged child.

He is not the first black man to be called a child. I have read the police report and the statement of Gates' Lawyer. Someone is a liar and I don't yet know who.

 

[turbo]

I have no idea what happened inside that house, Russ. On one hand you have Henry Gates: Summa cum laude and Phi Beta Kappa graduate of Yale. MacArthur "genius grant" recipient. Acclaimed historian, Harvard professor and PBS documentarian. One of Time magazine's "25 Most Influential Americans" in 1997. Holder of 50 honorary degrees.

On the other hand you have a sergeant in the Cambridge police force who has a good record and is an expert in racial profiling.

You seem willing to discount the story of a pretty distinguished scholar, in favor of the cop. Let's see how it plays out. I suspect that if anything is released, it will only be radio traffic after Gates was pretty perturbed, and we will only have the participants' claims of how the situation played out before that.

As I have made clear, I don't care if Gates was tired and upset and flew off the handle. As soon as he identified himself to the officer, that should have been the end of the incident. It was not.

In situations like this the police hold the upper hand, and they should use discretion in applying it. If this had been an older white man with a cane in his own house, with Gates' position and credentials, would he have been arrested even if he was really mad about being suspected of a crime? I doubt it.

 

[berkeman]

I have read the police report and the statement of Gates' Lawyer. Someone is a liar and I don't yet know who.

Can you link to Gates' lawyer's statement (or did I miss it already posted?)? Thanks.

 

[turbo]

Something else that has been glossed-over in this incident: the woman who called the police has been called a racist.

Not by Gates. He wasn't aware of her identity at the time, but he publicly thanked her on Gail King's Sirius radio show. He said that he had a valuable collection of books and art in his home and he was grateful that if someone suspected a break-in, they would alert the cops.

 

[Astronuc]

The quality of these varies, but this ireport from CNN is really good: http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-303137

That is excellent.

For the most part, I agree that the commentary is excellent - except for the part where the neighbor is criticized for racial profiling. There is no evidence to suggest that. There is however a statement about two guys forcing entry into a house. Yes, they are reported as black because visually they are. If they had been white, then report would probably have been about two white guys forcing a door.

If the two guys had entered with a key - I'd bet there would have been no call - no incident.


Hopefully, cooler heads will prevail.


I am pleased to hear that Obama called Crowley, and I hope he apologized.

Obama did make a statement about his previous statement and that he probably should have 'calibrated' his words differently. I hope he remembers that in future.

 

[Count Iblis]

Thing is that charges were dropped. So, the disorderly conduct charge seemed to be have been judged to be untenable or unwise to pursue by the police and/or DA themselves.

I think that they realize that disorderly conduct is vaguely defined and that gives the police a great deal of freedom to act. But they have to use that freedom wisely, otherwise they risk the law being changed if someone like Gates were charged and convicted and then that conviction were to be overturned on appeal.

 

[Office_Shredder]

Thing is that charges were dropped. So, the disorderly conduct charge seemed to be have been judged to be untenable or unwise to pursue by the police and/or DA themselves.

I think that they realize that disorderly conduct is vaguely defined and that gives the police a great deal of freedom to act. But they have to use that freedom wisely, otherwise they risk the law being changed if someone like Gates were charged and convicted and then that conviction were to be overturned on appeal.

What does a conviction being overturned on appeal have to do with changing the law?

The charges could have dropped because of:
1) Political pressure to drop the charges
2) The officer arrested Gates with the intention of the charges being dropped later. It would be a bit unusual to do that in this case, but it's not unheard of in general
3) They decided there wasn't enough evidence to indict him
4) They decided that there was no point in indicting him... judge would just let him off with a slap on the wrist anyway since he's apparently got an upstanding record as a citizen and it's a first time offense

 

[Evo]

Thing is that charges were dropped. So, the disorderly conduct charge seemed to be have been judged to be untenable or unwise to pursue by the police and/or DA themselves.

I think that they realize that disorderly conduct is vaguely defined and that gives the police a great deal of freedom to act. But they have to use that freedom wisely, otherwise they risk the law being changed if someone like Gates were charged and convicted and then that conviction were to be overturned on appeal.

I believe they dropped the charges because it not's worth pursuing. Gates more or less appears to have given the officer little choice. He was completely out of order by that time.

 

[Count Iblis]

What does a conviction being overturned on appeal have to do with changing the law?

The charges could have dropped because of:
1) Political pressure to drop the charges
2) The officer arrested Gates with the intention of the charges being dropped later. It would be a bit unusual to do that in this case, but it's not unheard of in general
3) They decided there wasn't enough evidence to indict him
4) They decided that there was no point in indicting him... judge would just let him off with a slap on the wrist anyway since he's apparently got an upstanding record as a citizen and it's a first time offense

Because if the conviction would have been based on a correct application of the law and the Supreme Court would rule that the result of that is an unacceptable violation of the First Amendment, the law would be ruled to be unconsitutional.

New Edit: A Law professor on CNN just told that there already is a precendent that the State Supreme Court had ruled on.The ruling was that this sort of an arrest is in violation of the First Amendment.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Can you link to Gates' lawyer's statement (or did I miss it already posted?)? Thanks.

This is what I read:
http://www.theroot.com/views/lawyers-statement-arrest-henry-louis-gates-jr"

 

[berkeman]

This is what I read:
http://www.theroot.com/views/lawyers-statement-arrest-henry-louis-gates-jr"

Wow, no kidding one of them is lying! Let's see, LEOs can lose their job if they are caught lying on a report. What can scholars and their lawyers lose...?

Hopefully the statement about how it happened on the porch will be the thing that exposes whoever is lying. Lots of people (not just LEOs) apparently saw what happened outside, and the two accounts differ significantly.

 

[chemisttree]

While I am aware he was outside, I think it is important to note that that is irrelevant. Inside or outside, the crime is the same.

I'm no lawyer but http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2009/07/the-henry-louis-gates-jr-arrest-and-disorderly-conduct.html"

Massachusetts bars disorderly conduct through Section 53 of Chapter 272 of its general laws, the chapter devoted to crimes against chastity, morality, decency and good order. Specifically, it states that:

"Common night walkers, common street walkers, both male and female, common railers and brawlers, persons who with offensive and disorderly acts or language accost or annoy persons of the opposite sex, lewd, wanton and lascivious persons in speech or behavior, idle and disorderly persons, disturbers of the peace, keepers of noisy and disorderly houses, and persons guilty of indecent exposure may be punished by imprisonment in a jail or house of correction for not more than six months, or by a fine of not more than two hundred dollars, or by both such fine and imprisonment."

With charges as nebulous as disorderly conduct, over time, courts refine what it means to violate the law. Certainly, there are many ways one can violate disorderly conduct restrictions. However, one requirement that Massachusetts courts have recognized is that the behavior must in some way be public.

 

[waht]

Obama invited Crowley and Gates for a beer in the White House, I hope they straighten things out, and learn from all this. After all we are just human, everyone makes mistakes in one way or another.

I wonder if the beer is to be paid by taxpayer's money, if it is I would make a toast to the country if I was Obama.

 

[Tibarn]

Obviously the attorney's statement will be phrased in such a way that it doesn't imply any wrongdoing on the part of his client. The cop writing a police report is also unlikely to include anything that could later be used to incriminate him. Cops can get in trouble for lying in a police report, but proving they intentionally lied is another story. They don't call it the Blue Wall of Silence for nothing. You'd be surprised at how often people slip and fall in the presence of police.

 

[Evo]

Obama invited Crowley and Gates for a beer in the White House, I hope they straighten things out, and learn from all this. After all we are just human, everyone makes mistakes in one way or another.

I wonder if the beer is to be paid by taxpayer's money, if it is I would make a toast to the country if I was Obama.

How nice for Crowley, two people that have said horrible, unfounded things about him. Obama should have invited Crowley alone to apologize to him. This is assinine. I'm really beginning to wonder where Obama's head is, unless he and Gates are both planning to publicly apologize to Crowley.

 

[berkeman]

I was thinking similarly. Is there some rule that says that a president can't say "Oops, I messed up on that one. Should have waited for the police report before commenting." I don't get that part. I think I get the other parts.

 

[Phrak]

This is a fairly easy read from the http://www.amnation.com/vfr/Police report on Gates arrest.PDF"

Thin-skinned http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~amciv/faculty/gates.shtml" , Director of the W. E. B. Du Bois Institute for African and African American Research at Harvard University, who believes his own lectures after years surrounded by yes-men (students), lashes out at police.

Crowley's Report: Gates was telling the person on the other end of the call that he was dealing with a racist police officer in his home.

"This is what happens to black men in America!," Gates Shouting, per Crowley's report.

After this, and continued verbal abuse Crowley has a bone to chew. He lures Gates to his own turf.

Crowley’s Report: I again told Gates that I would speak to him outside. My reason for wanting to leave the residence was that Gates was yelling very loud and the acoustics of the kitchen and foyer were making it difficult for me to transmit pertinent information to ECC or other responding units.

Does anyone believe this excuse?

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I have no idea what happened inside that house, Russ. On one hand you have Henry Gates: Summa cum laude and Phi Beta Kappa graduate of Yale. MacArthur "genius grant" recipient. Acclaimed historian, Harvard professor and PBS documentarian. One of Time magazine's "25 Most Influential Americans" in 1997. Holder of 50 honorary degrees.

There are many people around here who are 'well to do' or rich or well educated and who have a tendency to give the police and security officers a hard time. They often seem to feel privledged and superior and act very much in the manner Gates was described as acting by Crowley when you bother them with things they don't feel like dealing with.
Around here most of these people are white and yes they often get arrested or cited for acting in such a manner even though they are white.
I deal with all sorts of people who give me a hard time and if they give me the opportunity to give them a real hard time back I do it. I do it because I want them to think twice about being ***holes to me or my coworkers in the future. Neither I, nor my coworkers, nor their neighbours deserve to deal with their disrespect.

Thing is that charges were dropped. So, the disorderly conduct charge seemed to be have been judged to be untenable or unwise to pursue by the police and/or DA themselves.

I think that they realize that disorderly conduct is vaguely defined and that gives the police a great deal of freedom to act. But they have to use that freedom wisely, otherwise they risk the law being changed if someone like Gates were charged and convicted and then that conviction were to be overturned on appeal.

Such minor charges are regularly dismissed. Usually the person is arrested because the officer was given no choice or because the officer knew that the person would be released and just wanted to teach them a lesson. Happens to teenagers all the time.

Because if the conviction would have been based on a correct application of the law and the Supreme Court would rule that the result of that is an unacceptable violation of the First Amendment, the law would be ruled to be unconsitutional.

New Edit: A Law professor on CNN just told that there already is a precendent that the State Supreme Court had ruled on.The ruling was that this sort of an arrest is in violation of the First Amendment.

BS. Every city I have ever worked in has had laws against disturbing the peace. If you stand in your yard yelling and screaming and refuse to stop at the direction of a police officer you will be arrested.
Here 'disturbing the peace' is close to this 'public misconduct' and probably used more often.

I'm no lawyer but http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2009/07/the-henry-louis-gates-jr-arrest-and-disorderly-conduct.html"

The article there assumes that Gates was arrested for what happened inside the house. From everything I read he was not arrested until after he exited the house and carried on with his yelling in public view.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

After this, and continued verbal abuse Crowley has a bone to chew. He lures Gates to his own turf.

Crowley’s Report: I again told Gates that I would speak to him outside. My reason for wanting to leave the residence was that Gates was yelling very loud and the acoustics of the kitchen and foyer were making it difficult for me to transmit pertinent information to ECC or other responding units.

Does anyone believe this excuse?

Yes and no. Inside a house with a man yelling at me and traffic coming over the radio I would want to get outside aswell. The wording may make it seem like it was just an excuse but if you have ever written a report like this you would probably find yourself occasionally trying to come up with a professional and precise way of conveying an idea that is usually quite easy to say in a general conversational way. I've personally written similarly oddly worded things in my reports.

But yes, I believe that to some degree he was trying to get Gates outside so that he had more recourse to respond to Gates' actions.

 

[Phrak]

Yes and no. Inside a house with a man yelling at me and traffic coming over the radio I would want to get outside aswell. The wording may make it seem like it was just an excuse but if you have ever written a report like this you would probably find yourself occasionally trying to come up with a professional and precise way of conveying an idea that is usually quite easy to say in a general conversational way. I've personally written similarly oddly worded things in my reports.

Note that, as worded, the causative is placed after the action. As Cyrus has recently noted, this is a 'tell'. He's broken from the narrative format. We will do this when we attempt to justify actions, when we don't conciously know why we do what we do--and don't want to know. After suffering continual verbal abuse, I would be feeling the need for revenge.

But yes, I believe that to some degree he was trying to get Gates outside so that he had more recourse to respond to Gates' actions.

Are you a police officer?

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Note that, as worded, the causative is placed after the action. As Cyrus has recently noted, this is a 'tell'. He's broken from the narrative format. We do this when we attempt to justify actions, when we don't conciously know why we do what we do--and don't want to know. After suffering continual verbal abuse, I would be feeling the need for revenge.

Considering that Gates was more or less led outside it was really pertinent to the report that the officer give a reasoning for why he felt the necessity to go outside. It is necessary in a report for an officer to justify his actions. Even as it stands he could possible be accused of entrapment by telling Gates he would only talk with him if he came outside with him. It may seem much more suspicious than it really is. Admittedly it caught my eye as well when I read it and I certainly would not disagree that getting Gates outside was perhaps part of the motivation.

Are you a police officer?

No. Just a security guard.
If you're wondering about my knowledge of this sort of thing standard report writing is a mandatory part of training. When I worked at Brooks College the chief of our department was a retired cop who liked to hold us to a similar standard to the police and my training supervisor was a retired cop. I haven't been held to that same standard for a few years now but i still remember most of the basics.

 

[Phrak]

Considering that Gates was more or less led outside it was really pertinent to the report that the officer give a reasoning for why he felt the necessity to go outside. It is necessary in a report for an officer to justify his actions. Even as it stands he could possible be accused of entrapment by telling Gates he would only talk with him if he came outside with him. It may seem much more suspicious than it really is. Admittedly it caught my eye as well when I read it and I certainly would not disagree that getting Gates outside was perhaps part of the motivation.

It doesn't have to be concious. Just an action that takes him out of a position of weakness.

The next question is Obama. Who educated him. What is his indoctrination? What influence did Gates have?

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

The next question is Obama. Who educated him. What is his indoctrination? What influence did Gates have?

Gates is only ten years older than Obama. I think that they were just peers, not necessarily a student professor relationship.

I really don't get why people make such a big deal about the people that Obama associates with and their views on race. I personally have known and grown up with racists and I doubt any politician anywhere could claim that they have never associated with any racists.

 

[Hurkyl]

Wow, no kidding one of them is lying!

Not necessarily -- the two stories can fit together without requiring anyone to lie. (Or... are you considering omitting relevant information a kind of lying? In that case, yes, someone is definitely lying)

For example, that Gates thinks the officer never gave his name could very well be true if Gates only heard "Cambridge Police" after he first asked who the officer was, and after the second request, cut the officer off with a rant. (Crowley even claims he only began to give his name before Gates continued shouting)

 

[turbo]

Nowhere in Crowley's report does he claim that he properly identified himself to Gates as requested. It does not matter that he might have said his name - that holds no more water than if Gates had verbally identified himself without providing documentation. Crowley was required under Massachusetts state law to show Gates proper identification upon request. He did not do so, which is perhaps the only law that was broken during this entire encounter.

We confer a great deal of authority on the people that uphold our laws. In return, we expect them to act in a responsible manner and not abuse their authority to punish citizens that cross them. Gates was arrested, taken into custody and driven away in front of his neighbors, put through the booking procedure and held for 4 hours, after which he had to call a friend to come pick him up and drive him home. His offense appears to have been asking Crowley to identify himself.

http://ednews.org/articles/do-police-officers-have-to-identify-themselves.html

 

[Hans de Vries]

There are many people around here who are 'well to do' or rich or well educated and who have a tendency to give the police and security officers a hard time. They often seem to feel privledged and superior and act very much in the manner Gates was described as acting by Crowley when you bother them with things they don't feel like dealing with.
Around here most of these people are white and yes they often get arrested or cited for acting in such a manner even though they are white.
I deal with all sorts of people who give me a hard time and if they give me the opportunity to give them a real hard time back I do it. I do it because I want them to think twice about being ***holes to me or my coworkers in the future. Neither I, nor my coworkers, nor their neighbours deserve to deal with their disrespect.

This is exactly my feeling about what happened and I could sympathize with Crowley for
just wanting to teach Gates a simple lesson, after all Crowley placed himself in a dangerous
situations in order to protect Gates' property from burglars. (Something which Gates
missed entirely)

Crowley most likely didn't realize that the simple "lesson" would turn into a devastating
public humiliation for somebody who has worked his whole live for the dignity and respect
of black people.

http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~amciv/faculty/gates.shtml

Now he saw himself displayed as "yet another of them black criminals" for the
whole nation in handcuffs complete with mugshots. I do very much sympathize with
Obama for not being happy with this.

Nevertheless. I think something good can come out of this if they all "have a beer"
together in the white house. They are all people of good intentions who are, as we
all are, just human beings. Things happen but there is always second chance.Regards, Hans