Libyan forces have captured Muammar Gaddafi

[Evo]

I also recall reading something along the lines he was dragged on the streets but that claim was not supported.

This is in the news, but it's graphic, so watch at your own discretion.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/vid...emoved-truck-alive-video?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3486

 

[Proton Soup]

at 0:34, a soldier says he was shot with a 9mm gun.
http://aljazeera.com/news/africa/2011/10/20111020171225339666.html

 

[Acetone]

it's still where i found it. i'll leave it as a puzzle to you to find it, as linking it is frowned upon. it wasn't really dragged like dragged behind a pickup. more like holding him up as he doesn't have the strength to stand on his own. to me, he still looks alive there, and i don't think he would look alive with the hole in his forehead i saw on CNN a short time ago.

A Danish reported was there beside him and confirmed he was alive at the time of getting off the pick-up truck.

I can't find it in me to support if he was captured and killed. I don't care what he did.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Maybe we will never get the whole truth about what really happened, but he was definitely alive at the time of getting off (on?) the pick-up truck.

The general picture is that Gaddafi and his sons tried to escape Sirte in a convoy of up to 80 vehicles, which was spotted and attacked by NATO air force. A US Predator drone also attacked the convoy of vehicles along with the French planes. Some say it was heavy fire, with Hellfire missiles etc. Some say NATO air force just stopped the convoy, and then the NTC forces attacked the convoy.

Anyway, there were a lot of casualties and one of Muammar Gaddafi's sons, Moatassem Gaddafi, was killed in the turmoil. Gaddafi's other son, Saif al-Islam Gaddafi, was serious wounded and lost one arm. He was brought to hospital and was close to die last night, and his condition is still very severe this morning.

[PLAIN]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ar/thumb/6/67/%D8%B3%D9%8A%D9%81_%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A5%D8%B3%D9%84%D8%A7%D9%85_%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%82%D8%B0%D8%A7%D9%81%D9%8A.jpg/300px-%D8%B3%D9%8A%D9%81_%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A5%D8%B3%D9%84%D8%A7%D9%85_%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%82%D8%B0%D8%A7%D9%81%D9%8A.jpg
Moatassem Gaddafi & Saif al-Islam Gaddafi

Would Muammar Gaddafi have walked out this mayhem, with his Golden Gun, without one scratch?

Hardly, he was already wounded when caught in a sewage pipe:

Who’s the 'rat' now?

Apparently Muammar Gaddafi was even more psychotic than usual and thought that it was his own men who came to rescue him, and said to one of the NTC men: - What’s going on my son?

If he was executed on the way to the hospital, it was not right – it’s 'quite' problematic to condemn a criminal dictator, utilizing the same horrific methods...

On the other hand, it’s easy for us to act as "the moral guardians" – Muammar Gaddafi was a medieval psychotic monster that terrorized his people for 40 years, who hanged 120 students in public as 'punishment' for an 'illegal demonstration', who slaughter 1,000+ inmates to stop protests, who was willing to bomb his own people just to stay in power, etc, etc.

I’m against what (may have) happened to Muammar Gaddafi in the last moment – but I can’t guarantee that I had not done the same thing, in the same agitated situation...

It’s a crazy world.

 

[Proton Soup]

yeah, I'm pretty convinced at this point that the "crossfire" story is just a cover. (who knows the weapon caliber in a crossfire?) you're right, it is quite problematic to be claiming you want a less tribal, more democratic future, only to keep on doing business as usual.

 

[mathwonk]

I also find it hard to celebrate the possible murder even of a monster like him. This makes me think I - we have changed in this world into more humane citizens over the years of relative peace, since the world wars of the last century.

I.e. I doubt if as many people would have had qualms about someone killing Hitler. Actually I do not recall that many people with reservations about killing Osama Bin Laden, but there were some, including me at the time. But it surprised me as I had fantasized about his demise while he was alive.

On the other hand the people under these repressive regimes such as in Libya have had a different and less peaceful experience these past 50 years and maybe they are reacting as I would have done in the 1940's or 50's.

But I worry that we are adopting a method of dealing with enemies that has no lasting future. You can't just kill all your enemies, and I think that trying to do so only creates more.

I still find myself hoping for the end of Bashar Assad's regime, and I admit I am not really praying hard for him to survive it. Maybe I should try.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

To be honest if I lived in a country where for decades a mad dictator had arrested, tortured and killed thousands of my countrymen and I found myself infront of him with a gun I doubt I would have many qualms.

If he hadn't been killed on capture he would have been put on trial, found guilty and executed anyway.

 

[WhoWee]

I would have been in favor of them holding him at gunpoint in that sewer pipe - laying in the dirt, crying, and begging for his life - until a legal authority could stop by and arrest him. As someone pointed out up-thread - he might have then bled out (and died in the sewer) while he waited.

 

[Proton Soup]

AP account
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...ME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-10-21-12-32-39

An AP correspondent saw the body at the shopping center in the coastal city of Misrata, home of the fighters who killed the ousted leader a day earlier in his hometown of Sirte.

The body, stripped to the waist and wearing beige trousers, was laid on a bloodied mattress on the floor of an emptied-out room-sized freezer where restaurants and stores in the center normally keep perishables. A bullet hole was visible on the left side of his head - with the bullet still lodged in his head, according to the presiding doctor - and in the center of his chest and stomach. His hair was matted and dried blood streaks his arms and head.

Outside the shopping center, residents waited in line for their chance enter the freezer and have their picture taken with Gadhafi's body. Different visiting hours have been set for women and children and for men.

"This is the expected end for a tyrant," said Abdel-Atie al-Tabouli, one of the main guards outside the freezer.

 

[WhoWee]

I just heard a news report by David Piper - said he's being stored in a local supermarket freezer.

 

[DoggerDan]

It's not like we didn't see this coming. I'd have preferred him to be taken alive and tried for his crimes against humanity. However, his actual end might serve as a more stern warning to the rulers other Islamic nations: "Rule us properly or suffer the same fate."

Seems to be the trend, anyway, although it's more or less winding down.

 

[rootX]

They could have tried him in Den Hague.

And they didn't kill Saddam Hussain for example. We didn't really see much of his supporters. He got the trial and the punishment he deserved.

Killing an unarmed prisoner because "it'll make life easier" is not ok at all. I understand it, but I don't approve of it.

Even though Iraq was a complete different story but that conflict was handled by trained-American soldiers and a well functioning American government.

Libya neither has trained soldiers nor a well functioning government.

 

[DoggerDan]

Libya neither has trained soldiers nor a well functioning government.

Neither did we, in 1763...

 

[MarcoD]

Well, it ain't right, but on the great stack of war crimes committed in any -and this- war, I am not going to get squishy over this crime.

Failing justice, a clean assassination, like with Bin Laden, is a manner for this country to progress forward while not being hindered with endless discussions looking back and figuring out what to do with this criminal.

 

[MarcoD]

Apparently Muammar Gaddafi was even more psychotic than usual and thought that it was his own men who came to rescue him, and said to one of the NTC men: - What’s going on my son?

Can you stop labeling the dude as psychotic. I know psychosis, it ain't what people think it is, and the guy clearly is not psychotic (if you could ever tell from a distance). If the guy would be psychotic, he would be sitting in a corner somewhere not talking and suffer. Self-deluded, power-hungry, anything, but psychotic is BS.

 

[Acetone]

Can you stop labeling the dude as psychotic. I know psychosis, it ain't what people think it is, and the guy clearly is not psychotic (if you could ever tell from a distance). If the guy would be psychotic, he would be sitting in a corner somewhere not talking and suffer. Self-deluded, power-hungry, anything, but psychotic is BS.

Well, given the information known, I too would not classify Gaddafi as psychotic. However, psychotic is a poor descriptor anyway. I feel much better using the actual disease terms than calling a person psychotic (psychosis isn't actually a disease, it's just certain symptoms of many diseases)

So, DevilsAvocado, from the perceived psychotic state of Gaddafi which symptom would you suggest he has and perhaps, which disease does he have?

I'll do the easy part of getting ICD open (ICD-10 of course) and go to the relevant section and provide you with a link:
http://apps.who.int/classifications/icd10/browse/2010/en#/F20-F29

 

[rootX]

Well, it ain't right, but on the great stack of war crimes committed in any -and this- war, I am not going to get squishy over this crime.

Failing justice, a clean assassination, like with Bin Laden, is a manner for this country to progress forward while not being hindered with endless discussions looking back and figuring out what to do with this criminal.

They are still doing "endless discussions looking back and figuring out what to do with this criminal" dead body

Under Islamic tradition burial should have taken place as soon as possible. But Libya's oil minister said the remains may be kept "for a few days".

 

[WhoWee]

They are still doing "endless discussions looking back and figuring out what to do with this criminal" dead body

As long as the freezer (at the supermarket) is working properly - they have a time to work it out.

 

[MarcoD]

They are still doing "endless discussions looking back and figuring out what to do with this criminal" dead body

Yeah well, apparently dozens, or hundreds, are -or have been- killed outright [after capture]. In this particular case, they seemed to have kicked him and shot him several times through the legs while shoving a cane inside his behind.

It isn't right, but I am rather more concerned about others getting murdered, and I am somewhat inclined towards that the guy who shot him through the temple has given him a mercy shot.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Can you stop labeling the dude as psychotic.

The dude? Is this a joke? In case you have missed it; Muammar Gaddafi is dead, not dude.

Are you labeling other criminal despots and genocide mass murderers "the dude" as well? Saddam "the dude" Hussein? Idi "the dude" Amin? Adolf "the dude" Hitler?

Das Führer Dude

I know psychosis

Looks like you may have a point.

If the guy would be psychotic, he would be sitting in a corner somewhere not talking and suffer.

Sounds like the first page in Psychology for Dummies.

it ain't what people think it is, and the guy clearly is not psychotic (if you could ever tell from a distance)

You are mixing apples and oranges, diagnosis and symptom. Psychotic = a mental state involving a loss of contact with reality.

Don’t know if you have been studying The Big Lebowski and Dudeism 24/7 the last six months, but if you did turn on your telly, to watch the news, you would get close enough to easily conclude (in agreement with basically the rest of the humanity) that Muammar Gaddafi had lost contact with reality:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69wBG6ULNzQ

If you’re interested, I recommend reading the analysis of this nutcase speech by a person who has ten years experience in working in mental health:

http://scottish-liberal.blogspot.com/2011/02/psychology-of-deluded-dictator.html"
...
Psychopathic leaders need their followers and as long as there remain some devotees, his delusions will be reinforced and he will not appreciate the weak position he is in. But any resistance will ultimately be futile and I can see no way back for Gaddafi. He’s lost control of his country as well as his grip on reality. However, he’s unlikely to go as peacefully as either Ali or Mubarak and the fear is that he may indulge in one final campaign of bloodshed.

If I may ask, what is your professional experience in psychology?

I get the impression that you make the assumption that this "labeling" and "diagnosis" (misconception) is something that I made up on my own. Nothing could be more erroneous; on PF we are not allowed to spread personal speculations, without external sources, as some form of fact.

On the same day as the psychotic nutcase speech http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/video/christiane-amanpours-exclusive-gadhafi-interview-libya-strongman-politics-13024275" , where delusions and madness was amplified into something that will be noted in the history books.

Later the same day, in a press conference, http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/video/ambassador-un-dr-susan-rice-moammar-gadhafi-interview-christiane-amanpour-delusional-13022145" and Dr. Susan Rice stated:

"It sound just frankly delusional, and when he can laugh in talking to American and international journalists, while he is slaughtering his own people, it only underscores how unfit he is to lead and how disconnected he is from reality."​

I can go on and on with high international officials and creditable senior journalists, both in the west and Arabic world, saying the same thing. Here’s just a small excerpt:

British Foreign Secretary William Hague: Gaddafi position is 'delusional'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14699187

Sen. John McCain Calls Gadhafi "Insane"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4f_DdTmXWwk

CNN's Jonathan Mann – Gaddafi: The strange dictator who hated democracy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Yp4QpucCto

Gaddafi's Sanity in Question
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIEw0IVUFN0
NBN = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Broadcasting_Network_(Lebanon)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Fry" on Twitter:

"Gaddafi appears to have separated himself from any semblance of reality, which would be funny if it didn't mean slaughter, pain and horror"​

I don’t know if you understand the significance of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_1970" ?

It’s the first time in history that a united Security Council marked a country (Libya) as referred to the International Criminal Court (ICC).

Why do you think they did that? The Security Council did not like Gaddafi’s outfit? No, of course not, they knew that Gaddafi was mad enough to bomb his own civilian protesters, and someone had to stop it.

Self-deluded, power-hungry, anything, but psychotic is BS.

Really? That’s some deep analysis you’ve got there Marco, or should I call you Dr. Marco?

Just one question: Since you’re disqualifying "my diagnosis", based on the fact this is not something "you could ever tell from a distance" – Did you meet Muammar Gaddafi in person when you completed your exceedingly advanced diagnosis?

I’m afraid that if you can’t support your personal speculations with something substantial, like external references, I have to return your ridiculous Bad Attitude quote:

Shut up, fool. - BA Baracus.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

... (psychosis isn't actually a disease, it's just certain symptoms of many diseases)

Yup "apples & oranges", I hope you’ll find the answers you need in my previous post.

 

[WhoWee]

Yeah well, apparently dozens, or hundreds, are -or have been- killed outright [after capture]. In this particular case, they seemed to have kicked him and shot him several times through the legs while shoving a cane inside his behind.

It isn't right, but I am rather more concerned about others getting murdered, and I am somewhat inclined towards that the guy who shot him through the temple has given him a mercy shot.

We all know people act differently in a mob situation. Does anyone remember the truck driver who was beat on the street after the Rodney King verdict? The "Libyan Strongman" (unlike the truck driver) was known to all and they had reason not to like him. Maybe he should have treated his people better - or fled the country when he had the opportunity?

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Maybe he should have treated his people better - or fled the country when he had the opportunity?

That’s a very good point WW, and if I don’t remember wrong, at one stage in the process he was offered safe passage to another country, if he stepped down.

But he didn’t, and this caused a lot of unnecessary death and suffering.

He had it coming.

 

[Dotini]

He had it coming.

When someone unquestionably "has it coming", like the Libyan dictator, is it generally okay that they be summarily executed by a vengeful mob, or only in certain cases like this one?

Would it be very wrong to think or say that no one should ever be summarily executed by a vengeful mob, no matter how bad they are?

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

 

[DevilsAvocado]

When someone unquestionably "has it coming", like the Libyan dictator, is it generally okay that they be summarily executed by a vengeful mob, or only in certain cases like this one?

Would it be very wrong to think or say that no one should ever be summarily executed by a vengeful mob, no matter how bad they are?

Respectfully submitted,
Steve

Thanks Steve, of course you are right and if you check the thread you will see that this is also my 'default position' – it’s never right to lynch anyone no matter how bad that person is.

The strongest argument (that you’ll never get around), is that you can’t condemn a criminal despot and his horrific and inhumane methods, if you at the same time are utilizing exactly the same madness. It just doesn’t work; you become a hypocrite and criminal murderer yourself, IMHO.

But as I also stated; it’s a crazy world, and it can be difficult for us in "the free world" even to imagine the horror that the people of Libya had to go thru for 40+ years. We just don’t know how this kind of life in tyranny affects you.

For example, imagine that one of the men in the NTC forces that captured Gaddafi had a son that was executed without trial, by hanging in public, because of an "illegal demonstration" (or some other horrific event in the past).

I don’t know... I regard myself as a pacifist, I don’t believe in solving conflicts by violence (because very soon the "reptile brain" will take over and we’re back to "medieval conflict solving")... but in this chaos with some very traumatic memories in the luggage... I don’t know... I just can’t guarantee that I had not done something similar... which I of course would have regretted badly afterwards...

Maybe the best thing is to admit that there is good and bad in everyone and to do everything possible to stop the bad from 'taking over', before it’s too late (which is very easy for me to say that have never experienced anything like Libya)...

I don’t know... it’s a crazy world.

Cheers
DA


P.S. But I still think that Gaddafi had a choice to avoid this. If he was too delusional to understand this; his sons should have accepted the offered safe passage to another country, and brought the crazy dictator with them.

 

[DoggerDan]

They are still doing "endless discussions looking back and figuring out what to do with this criminal" dead body

If they don't figure it out soon, natural processes will make their decision for them.

 

[DoggerDan]

Das Führer Dude

It hurts to laugh! I went cycling this afternoon and my allergies are flaring...

That just looks so rad, man, I had to laugh anyway. :)

 

[MarcoD]

Just one question: Since you’re disqualifying "my diagnosis", based on the fact this is not something "you could ever tell from a distance" – Did you meet Muammar Gaddafi in person when you completed your exceedingly advanced diagnosis?

I’m afraid that if you can’t support your personal speculations with something substantial, like external references, I have to return your ridiculous Bad Attitude quote:

Ah, get off your high horse. I am disqualifying your diagnosis since there hasn't been any formal one.

Moreover, detached from reality? You ever watched North-Korean state television? Or the last messages of the former Iraq regime? Heck, half the world is detached from reality, and certainly most dictatorial regimes.

Moreover, you insulted me, and a lot of people who ever had a mental illness, drug-induced or not, by playing the "social stigma" card. In essence, relating mental illness to criminality, whereas the facts are that if there were any relation, -despite the hollywood movies- most mentally ill are either victims, or victimized.

What makes it more heinous than that is that most repressive regimes even abuse that stigma, or others, to get rid of their opponents. Like the Stasi, or Stalin, or even Gaddafi in his green book.

I know the stigma sells, but the stigma ain't true.

 

[WhoWee]

If they don't figure it out soon, natural processes will make their decision for them.

Again, he's stored in a local super market freezer - no worries.

 

[MarcoD]

The strongest argument (that you’ll never get around), is that you can’t condemn a criminal despot and his horrific and inhumane methods, if you at the same time are utilizing exactly the same madness. It just doesn’t work; you become a hypocrite and criminal murderer yourself, IMHO.

Well, it looks like a criminal murder to me. I wonder, should the 'soldiers' go to court (most of Libya seems to disagree)? What would their defense be? "We were just having fun, but it went a bit too far?" "It was our moral obligation?" "I was wrong but he murdered my friends?" "Temporal insanity because 'stuff' got overheated?" Should they go to trial?

At the same time, I am a bit more worried about the political 'euphemisms' coming out of Libya. The response was a bit too predictable: Wait a few days before declaring independence. (Was that just too tie up some 'loose ends' in a similar manner in Sirte?) Declare that it is now time for peace. (We just tied up the 'loose ends'?) Declare a thank-you to NATO and progress with Sharia law? (Thank you 'kafirs' for implementing an Islamist state?) Maybe I am just a cynic.

 

[WhoWee]

Well, it looks like a criminal murder to me. I wonder, should the 'soldiers' go to court (most of Libya seems to disagree)? What would their defense be? "We were just having fun, but it went a bit too far?" "It was our moral obligation?" "I was wrong but he murdered my friends?" "Temporal insanity because 'stuff' got overheated?" Should they go to trial?

At the same time, I am a bit more worried about the political 'euphemisms' coming out of Libya. The response was a bit too predictable: Wait a few days before declaring independence. (Was that just too tie up some 'loose ends' in a similar manner in Sirte?) Declare that it is now time for peace. (We just tied up the 'loose ends'?) Declare a thank-you to NATO and progress with Sharia law? (Thank you 'kafirs' for implementing an Islamist state?) Maybe I am just a cynic.

Actually...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ays-legislation-based-Islamic-Sharia-law.html

"Islamic Sharia law will be the 'basic source' of legislation in the new Libya, says new leader "

 

[MarcoD]

Yah. But why respond a few days later instead of immediately (or even, before)? They had months to figure out what to do with him in case of a capture. But I guess the pragmatics of politics, and that country, are such that in this case too late was better than too early, and I think it implies that a 'certain amount' of war crimes were just allowed (like in Sirte).

Then there is the case what to do with the 'idiot' murderers. This is not the first dictator being end up shot (Mussolini and girlfriend was one, Ceauşescu too). Guess the murderers usually walk free?

Then there is the Sharia law. I don't like Sharia, but I don't mind when Libya wants to go that direction, but I do mind that the NTC decides for the rest of the populace that that's the way to go. It's undemocratic.

In Tunisia, they did it right. First elections, then a new constitution. If the majority of the people decides on Islamic law, who am I to decide? But the NTC, IMO, just doesn't have a mandate except for bringing forth democracy (or a decentralized democracy with 'city states,' I might see that working too.)

[Then again, Gaddafi himself wrote that the will of the people will always emerge, and they studied that. Guess he was proven right.]

 

[DevilsAvocado]

It hurts to laugh! I went cycling this afternoon and my allergies are flaring...

That just looks so rad, man, I had to laugh anyway. :)

Of course the real El Duderino is much more sympathetic, "If we all brought more Dude into our life’s the world would be a better place":


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYUD6vs0pg4

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Ah, get off your high horse. I am disqualifying your diagnosis since there hasn't been any formal one.

With all dude respect, it’s impossible to continue this discussion since you seem unable to tell the difference between http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_diagnosis" , apples & oranges.

Moreover, detached from reality? You ever watched North-Korean state television? Or the last messages of the former Iraq regime? Heck, half the world is detached from reality, and certainly most dictatorial regimes.

Half the world seems like a 'slight' exaggeration, but sure there are a lot of wackos out there, but AFAICT no one but Gaddafi has threatened to drop bombs on his own people.

Moreover, you insulted me

Please Marco, you accused me for talking BS, and naturally I defended my position, and now you are complaining about being hurt? What am I missing...??

and a lot of people who ever had a mental illness, drug-induced or not, by playing the "social stigma" card. In essence, relating mental illness to criminality, whereas the facts are that if there were any relation, -despite the hollywood movies- most mentally ill are either victims, or victimized.

Could you please quote me where I'm "relating mental illness to criminality" in general, preferably before doing false accusations?

This is ridicules, welcome to the future, people are chewing SSRIs like candy, and almost everyone has a close friend or relative with some form of 'diagnosis', or personal experience, "social stigma" belongs to the past century.

And the 'logic' is limping, to say at least. These are the diseases that Adolf Hitler suffered from; irritable bowel syndrome, skin lesions, irregular heartbeat, Parkinson's disease, syphilis, tinnitus, Asperger syndrome, sinus infection, bad teeth, gums infection, Monorchism (only one testicle).

With your 'logic' one could say: – Aha! This guy has Parkinson's and only one testicle! He must be a Nazi and guilty of genocide!

It doesn’t work, does it?

 

[WhoWee]

Yah. But why respond a few days later instead of immediately (or even, before)? They had months to figure out what to do with him in case of a capture. But I guess the pragmatics of politics, and that country, are such that in this case too late was better than too early, and I think it implies that a 'certain amount' of war crimes were just allowed (like in Sirte).

Then there is the case what to do with the 'idiot' murderers. This is not the first dictator being end up shot (Mussolini and girlfriend was one, Ceauşescu too). Guess the murderers usually walk free?

Then there is the Sharia law. I don't like Sharia, but I don't mind when Libya wants to go that direction, but I do mind that the NTC decides for the rest of the populace that that's the way to go. It's undemocratic.

In Tunisia, they did it right. First elections, then a new constitution. If the majority of the people decides on Islamic law, who am I to decide? But the NTC, IMO, just doesn't have a mandate except for bringing forth democracy (or a decentralized democracy with 'city states,' I might see that working too.)

[Then again, Gaddafi himself wrote that the will of the people will always emerge, and they studied that. Guess he was proven right.]

Invoking Sharia might be more pragmatic in the short term than any other process? It's a known quantity - everyone understands the rules.