Male-Female Strength/Wrestling Question

[nismaratwork]

I am not saying that judo is ineffective but these particular techniques are impractical on the streets i mean they look flashy and impressive but in a real street fight using these techniques would not be good idea for a street fight you need to learn techniques which are simple and easy to master like the ones used by to police and the army but none the less judo can overall be used as an effective fighting style.

If we are talking about combat sport i think i must post this fight this is some crazy stuff this fight really shows the difference between k1 and mma striking.

The people I most fear in a street fight, unarmed, are people who really know a lot of Judo, and people with exceptional BJJ. I'm a big guy, and Judo RAPIDLY levels that playing field without a lot of work on my part. If you're in a combat sport, the difference is that you intentinally dislocate and break what you can.

Is it the first thing you should do?... probably not, but if it's in your bag of tricks it's going to take almost ANYONE by surprise. Once on the ground, disoriented, and in a disadvantageous position (possibly with broken limbs)... it's over.

 

[nismaratwork]

You should :P



Nobody will wait for you to learn to master any technique. Humans believe in silver bullets, but they don't exist. The most "basic" of striking techniques, like a jab or a cross take many months to be developed to any meaningful extent. You'll probably learn to throw a lead hook efficiently after about ten thousand repetitions. And then you will still improve your motor control for many many years to come.

And that's the development of basic technique only. Countering attacks, the ability to change your striking combination on the fly depending the reaction of your opponent to the first punch in the series is a skill which won't come easy at all, and it requires countless hours of sparring .

In fact, you will see that it's easier for a person to learn ground techniques and become proficient in them than stand-up (and that include both strikes and throws).

One of the problems with many self-defense training places is that they teach many great techniques, which suposedly work well with little to no training, but then the wake up call
comes. Nothing really falls into place without countless hours of training, sparring, and physical preparation. Lacking those, all you managed to do is to lure practitioners into a false sense of security.

The effectiveness of any technical movement in sports or in combat is determined by the practitioners effectiveness, not by the technique itself. The jab might be the most important and the most simple and basic punch in every fighting system, but if you are not able to use it correctly, you still amount for nothing. And ironically, throwing a good jab takes skill :P



Really ? Smart of you to notice that street fights involve resistance. Resisting a kami basami is one the worst idea you can have. This particular throw has the potential to do most of it's damage when it is resisted. So if you got exposed to it, pray to god that you manage to see it coming, and you do not resist it.

Also, sparring means different things to different ppl. My city is a competitive Judo center, one of the best in the country. Around here sparring means business. While ppl don't go all out on each other all the time, and they are very useful in training to each other, and try to improve their team members which do not have a great game yet, they fight, they don't play. You don't raise to a competitive standard without taking your sparring **very seriously**. Around here even teenage girls will show a lot of resistance in sparring.

Just to add... in my experience sparring can mean:

"Warring kata"... aka 'wushu show gymnastic'... pretty meaningless on its own.
Practice sparring with limited strikes (meant to practice a technique, not a fight)
Sparring (try not to break anything)
Training (break it if you can...)

They're all useful at different points, with the latter only being necessary if you focus on training reactions. I know that I've never had a hyperextended knee and thougth, "gee, s/he's really not maximizing that extension...". I'm thinking, "AARRRGGGGHHH! taptaptaptap." In a fight, that would just be dislocated, and how sloppy that technique was would be... quite irrelevant.

 

[DanP]

Just to add... in my experience sparring can mean:

"Warring kata"... aka 'wushu show gymnastic'... pretty meaningless on its own.
Practice sparring with limited strikes (meant to practice a technique, not a fight)
Sparring (try not to break anything)
Training (break it if you can...)

They're all useful at different points, with the latter only being necessary if you focus on training reactions. I know that I've never had a hyperextended knee and thougth, "gee, s/he's really not maximizing that extension...". I'm thinking, "AARRRGGGGHHH! taptaptaptap." In a fight, that would just be dislocated, and how sloppy that technique was would be... quite irrelevant.

For me sparring only means one thing, free sparring practice. Kata is kata, and just about no one bothers with it, and learning a technique with a compliant opponent is technical training. Compliance and lack of resistance form an opponent is useful while learning the basics of a technique. In sparring, ppl are instructed to always show resistance, and never comply. You can't learn fighting by sparing with compliant opponents.

Compliance in sparring may be very well what you see in your average gyms out there, but you will **not** see it in a place where ppl train to be competitively successful (with the exceptions I enumerated in some above posts, like helping someone less advanced to gain).

If someone goes to such a place where opponents are compliant in sparing, my advice is to find another place. You are conned of your money. You will not learn to fight.

 

[nismaratwork]

For me sparring only means one thing, free sparring practice. Kata is kata, and just about no one bothers with it, and learning a technique with a compliant opponent is technical training. Compliance and lack of resistance form an opponent is useful while learning the basics of a technique. In sparring, ppl are instructed to always show resistance, and never comply. You can't learn fighting by sparing with compliant opponents.

Compliance in sparring may be very well what you see in your average gyms out there, but you will **not** see it in a place where ppl train to be competitively successful (with the exceptions I enumerated in some above posts, like helping someone less advanced to gain).

If someone goes to such a place where opponents are compliant in sparing, my advice is to find another place. You are conned of your money. You will not learn to fight.

I agree, but my experiences have not all been positive, as you might imagine. I began all of this with what I will kindly call, "Kenpo no Suburbia", so I'm describing the good bad and ugly. I agree that training for competition seems to lead to more gymnastics than meaningful skills, but maybe that's what they want?

 

[DanP]

I agree that training for competition seems to lead to more gymnastics than meaningful skills, but maybe that's what they want?

It doesn't leads to gymnastics, it usually leads to extremely efficient skills in a isolated area. And it happens in all sports I know. Boxers are the best punchers in this world, no other practitioners, beeit MMA , MT, whatever, comes close to the power and accuracy of a boxer's punch. All they do after all is punch. Sport judo players become godlike in tachi-waza while retaining ne-waza skills, and BJJ are gods in ne-waza while retaining some skills in tachi-waza.

Why this happens is easy to see, it's the rules of the sport and the scoring system which affects what techniques you emphasize in you training. After all, winning is all in sports, if you plan to make a life from it, earn money from it and from commercials, open a gym of your own to train a team. And to make money from a sport, you have to make it grow, and it has to be spectacular to draw viewers.

Take Judo for example. Kano created Judo from Jiu-Jitsu as a form of complete physical and psychical development for a human being. In 1882 he formed the Kodokan institute, the governing body of Judo. They created rule sets for sport encounters.

At the beginning of 20th icentury n Japan, there where schools which introduced kids to Judo in schools through ne-waza and not through tachi-waza to prevent injury. The focus in the first years of development was newaza, and tachi-waza was gradually introduced later in training. This lead to a generation of fighters which where extremely proficient in ne-waza. They hold matches under a subset of Kodokan rules which went to be known as Kosen Judo. It was practiced in kosen schools (5 years colleges).

This led to an interesting phenomenon. A skilled ne-waza practitioner would win a fight under those rules even if the was gracefully thrown, or if they would simply pull guard with no attempt to throw their adversary, and since they had excellent mat skills, and they would not have any desire to engage again in tachi-waza once they where on the mat. Furthermore a draw in Judo is easier to obtain in ne-waza then in tachi-waza, and this led to less skilled practitioners automatically pulling guard or entering mat techniques in the hope that they would secure a draw in the game against a more skilled opponent.

This changed in 1925. Kodokan revised the competition rules, and they limited the time you could spend in ne-waza. They would simply stand you up. This was effective in cutting off the trend of less skilled players to just pull guard.

Those rules continue to be modified even today. The IJF's trend is to make harder and harder to spend time on ground, there are very specific conditions which must be in place, apparent progress towards a technique must be done very fast, or else the referee will just call matte and stand the players up. Today, IJF referees will call matte unbelievably easy. You will be cut short very fast when you try to play your ne-waza. This makes emphasis on tachi-waza in Sport Judo so important today. And it also make sport judo more spectacular then other grappling sports, a Judo throw is beautiful to behold, while keeping someone 10 minutes between your legs is mighty boring for the casual viewers. The popularity for viewers means more money for the sport.So after the Kodokan changed rules, some of the Kosen schools decided to continue to train the same way, giving emphasis to ne-waza. They raised ne-waza to rang of art, and if you ever have the posibillty to watch those techniques you will realize that long before BJJ existed , ne-waza was already an art.

Some Judoka's where extremely well rounded, like the legendary Masahiko Kimura , others favored Newaza, others tachi-waza.

Now enter the Gracie family. In 1917 a Kodokan judoka Mitsuyo Maeda was in Brazil , popularizing Kano';s judo through the world. Carlos Gracie see a demonstration of his, and asked to be accepted as a student. Maeda accepted him and thought him Judo. Later Helio Gracie learned from brother. He was a smaller size men which did not posses outstanding physical strength, so he focused , like so many Kosen Players on ne-waza. This in effect resulted in the birth of the art known today as BJJ.

BJJ continued to evolve on it;s own line through the years. It became popular as the Gracies defeated opponent after opponent with their ne-waza. Changes occurred here as well. Sport BJJ became more popular, and rules of BJJ sport competition took their toll on the system. Fancy techniques, very efficient in the sport under it's rules were now widely used, even if they would not amount much in vale tudo. BJJ , like Judo, felt the wrath of competition rules :P

As for me, I love Judo. Judo is beautiful. It tells things to me.

 

[nismaratwork]

It doesn't leads to gymnastics, it usually leads to extremely efficient skills in a isolated area. And it happens in all sports I know. Boxers are the best punchers in this world, no other practitioners, beeit MMA , MT, whatever, comes close to the power and accuracy of a boxer's punch. All they do after all is punch. Sport judo players become godlike in tachi-waza while retaining ne-waza skills, and BJJ are gods in ne-waza while retaining some skills in tachi-waza.

Why this happens is easy to see, it's the rules of the sport and the scoring system which affects what techniques you emphasize in you training. After all, winning is all in sports, if you plan to make a life from it, earn money from it and from commercials, open a gym of your own to train a team. And to make money from a sport, you have to make it grow, and it has to be spectacular to draw viewers.

I appreciate all of that, but not the "schools" which purport to teach self defense when it is in fact, a sport. SD is more of a state of mind and reaction set, than it is perfected technique (not that the latter hurts). In the context of a sport, I agree with your points.

Take Judo for example. Kano created Judo from Jiu-Jitsu as a form of complete physical and psychical development for a human being. In 1882 he formed the Kodokan institute, the governing body of Judo. They created rule sets for sport encounters.

At the beginning of 20th icentury n Japan, there where schools which introduced kids to Judo in schools through ne-waza and not through tachi-waza to prevent injury. The focus in the first years of development was newaza, and tachi-waza was gradually introduced later in training. This lead to a generation of fighters which where extremely proficient in ne-waza. They hold matches under a subset of Kodokan rules which went to be known as Kosen Judo. It was practiced in kosen schools (5 years colleges).

This led to an interesting phenomenon. A skilled ne-waza practitioner would win a fight under those rules even if the was gracefully thrown, or if they would simply pull guard with no attempt to throw their adversary, and since they had excellent mat skills, and they would not have any desire to engage again in tachi-waza once they where on the mat. Furthermore a draw in Judo is easier to obtain in ne-waza then in tachi-waza, and this led to less skilled practitioners automatically pulling guard or entering mat techniques in the hope that they would secure a draw in the game against a more skilled opponent.

I'm familiar with this, although not in Judo. I sounds very much like "Zan-shin" as an element of Kendo; like fencing, a great sport, but not a pretense to martial skills. AFAIK, Judo of the neck-breaking variety is largely avoided under sport rules, for obvious reasons. Unfortunatley people in much of the world are exposed to the sport/way of life only. I'm looking at Aikido right now...

This changed in 1925. Kodokan revised the competition rules, and they limited the time you could spend in ne-waza. They would simply stand you up. This was effective in cutting off the trend of less skilled players to just pull guard.

So we have him to thank for this! You have a truly amazing knoweledge of Judo, Dan wa Nihon-jin desu ka? ("Are you Japanese"... forum rules)

Those rules continue to be modified even today. The IJF's trend is to make harder and harder to spend time on ground, there are very specific conditions which must be in place, apparent progress towards a technique must be done very fast, or else the referee will just call matte and stand the players up. Today, IJF referees will call matte unbelievably easy. You will be cut short very fast when you try to play your ne-waza. This makes emphasis on tachi-waza in Sport Judo so important today. And it also make sport judo more spectacular then other grappling sports, a Judo throw is beautiful to behold, while keeping someone 10 minutes between your legs is mighty boring for the casual viewers. The popularity for viewers means more money for the sport.

I'm just listening and learning at this point, but I feel the need to aknowledge that yes, I'm listening.

So after the Kodokan changed rules, some of the Kosen schools decided to continue to train the same way, giving emphasis to ne-waza. They raised ne-waza to rang of art, and if you ever have the posibillty to watch those techniques you will realize that long before BJJ existed , ne-waza was already an art.

This I did know... after all, it's the amazing number of Japanese people who came to Brazil which began all of this. I enjoy the contrast between (ne-waza) the active game on the back, and GRW's emphasis on "ANYTHING BUT THE BACK". When you resolve the two, it can lead to immense stabilty, and controlling falls to your advantage. Then again, you doubtless know that already!

Some Judoka's where extremely well rounded, like the legendary Masahiko Kimura , others favored Newaza, others tachi-waza.

This is where pure Judo lost me; given that I'm not trying to compete, I'm more interested in the mechanics of a rare fight, and the mentality of avoiding them at all costs. I can see based on your description how Judo has evolved as a sport, but as a martial art it seems to have lost something unless you're well connected to a VERY hard Judoka.

Now enter the Gracie family. In 1917 a Kodokan judoka Mitsuyo Maeda was in Brazil , popularizing Kano';s judo through the world. Carlos Gracie see a demonstration of his, and asked to be accepted as a student. Maeda accepted him and thought him Judo. Later Helio Gracie learned from brother. He was a smaller size men which did not posses outstanding physical strength, so he focused , like so many Kosen Players on ne-waza. This in effect resulted in the birth of the art known today as BJJ.

BJJ continued to evolve on it;s own line through the years. It became popular as the Gracies defeated opponent after opponent with their ne-waza. Changes occurred here as well. Sport BJJ became more popular, and rules of BJJ sport competition took their toll on the system. Fancy techniques, very efficient in the sport under it's rules were now widely used, even if they would not amount much in vale tudo. BJJ , like Judo, felt the wrath of competition rules :P

Now this I knew, but only because of my interest in the Gracies. I didn't know this degree of detail, and it's a painful thing that BJJ has become the next "sport". Forunately its origin in Brazil, like the Phillipino martial arts (Oh I do so love Escrima, I own foam, rattan, and HARDwood rattan) means that you can still learn it how you want to... sport or martial.

As for me, I love Judo. Judo is beautiful. It tells things to me.

That's what I get from fencing... it's the intense concentration of the mind and body, on tiny and large movements, and asessing the opponant. Kung-Fu and "Pushing Hands" have much the same effect I find, but like Judo can be adapted to combat with extensive practice and training. Needless to say, the fun would be gone if death were a stake, so I'm not pissing on contests in general, just ones posing as "no holds barred"... really?... then I have one for Lesner...

"I destroy your nuts,
You writhe a gnashing of teeth,
Then you crush my head."

 

[DanP]

SD is more of a state of mind and reaction set, than it is perfected technique (not that the latter hurts). In the context of a sport, I agree with your points.

Yes, self defense requires a certain state of mind. The state of mind in which you carry.

If you look at FBI's aggravated assault statistics for 2009 in USA you learn that 26.9% where executed unarmed, 20.9% with firearms, 18.7% with edged weapons and 33.5% with other weapons. (ofc, those stats are different in other countries, but still the vast majority of aggravated assault is perpetrated with a weapon). Those stats exclude any other assaults as murder and forcible rape.

So basically in a situation which requires SD you have over 73% probability to face an armed assault. So while any SD course using hand to hand combat will help you a bit, the best possible defense is to carry and be trained in proper use of a firearm.

IMO this it's a inescapable conclusion. We have to be realistic about it, any hand to hand system out there should only be used as a last resort. Its good to be trained in hand to hand, but its also very good not to depend on it

Indiana Jones was right:P

 

[FizixFreak]

You should :P
Nobody will wait for you to learn to master any technique. Humans believe in silver bullets, but they don't exist. The most "basic" of striking techniques, like a jab or a cross take many months to be developed to any meaningful extent. You'll probably learn to throw a lead hook efficiently after about ten thousand repetitions. And then you will still improve your motor control for many many years to come.

And that's the development of basic technique only. Countering attacks, the ability to change your striking combination on the fly depending the reaction of your opponent to the first punch in the series is a skill which won't come easy at all, and it requires countless hours of sparring .

In fact, you will see that it's easier for a person to learn ground techniques and become proficient in them than stand-up (and that include both strikes and throws).

One of the problems with many self-defense training places is that they teach many great techniques, which suposedly work well with little to no training, but then the wake up call
comes. Nothing really falls into place without countless hours of training, sparring, and physical preparation. Lacking those, all you managed to do is to lure practitioners into a false sense of security.

The effectiveness of any technical movement in sports or in combat is determined by the practitioners effectiveness, not by the technique itself. The jab might be the most important and the most simple and basic punch in every fighting system, but if you are not able to use it correctly, you still amount for nothing. And ironically, throwing a good jab takes skill :P
Really ? Smart of you to notice that street fights involve resistance. Resisting a kami basami is one the worst idea you can have. You should not give an opportunity to have it applied. This particular throw has the potential to do most of it's damage when it is resisted. So if you got exposed to it, pray to god that you manage to see it coming, and you do not resist it.

Also, sparring means different things to different ppl. My city is a competitive Judo center, one of the best in the country. Around here sparring means business. While ppl don't go all out on each other all the time, and they are very useful in training to each other, and try to improve their team members which do not have a great game yet, they fight, they don't play. You don't raise to a competitive standard without taking your sparring **very seriously**. Around here even teenage girls will show a lot of resistance in sparring.

We can have a long debate on this but having some experience i think we both will agree that executing the technique in a dojo and doing the same on the street are two different things in the street fight a person might panic and that can mess up his technique so if you learn a specific throw or take down and start considering yourself toughest guy around sooner or later you will get your a** handed to you.

I think when it comes to pulling the trigger having an M-16 would not help if you don't have the balls or mental stability to overcome the odds in a real fight a combination of mental toughness and dedicated training is something you need the most blindly trusting on a specific move can get you in trouble.

 

[elfboy]

It's amazing how deep these internet conversations become

cant we all agree we're all smart and special

 

[lisab]

It's amazing how deep these internet conversations become

cant we all agree we're all smart and special

Why can't we all be smart and special, yet still want to have deep conversations?

 

[DanP]

We can have a long debate on this but having some experience i think we both will agree that executing the technique in a dojo and doing the same on the street are two different things in the street fight a person might panic and that can mess up his technique so if you learn a specific throw or take down and start considering yourself toughest guy around sooner or later you will get your a** handed to you.

The issue you seem unable to grasp is that sportsmen have their techniques and physical preparation tested time and again in competition. It is the single most close event to a real fight (including a great deal of arousal and axiety)which you can have without actually training by going out and beating ppl day after day in the neighborhood. It gives you invaluable experience. And this is the reason why competitive fighters in boxing, judo, bjj, wrestlers, mt reign supreme on streets in unarmed combat. Between sparring and competition, they will get an experience in combat most humans only dream of. Self defense trained or not.

In practice what you have most of the time is ppl who says Uchi mata won't work, Kani Basami won't work , boxing sucks, that won't work, and then they get thrown on street on concrete, or get KOed by a boxer who only knows 4 techniques, jab , cross , hook and uppercut in 3 seconds, and the next thing they need is an ambulance

 

[nismaratwork]

Yes, self defense requires a certain state of mind. The state of mind in which you carry.

If you look at FBI's aggravated assault statistics for 2009 in USA you learn that 26.9% where executed unarmed, 20.9% with firearms, 18.7% with edged weapons and 33.5% with other weapons. (ofc, those stats are different in other countries, but still the vast majority of aggravated assault is perpetrated with a weapon). Those stats exclude any other assaults as murder and forcible rape.

So basically in a situation which requires SD you have over 73% probability to face an armed assault. So while any SD course using hand to hand combat will help you a bit, the best possible defense is to carry and be trained in proper use of a firearm.

IMO this it's a inescapable conclusion. We have to be realistic about it, any hand to hand system out there should only be used as a last resort. Its good to be trained in hand to hand, but its also very good not to depend on it

Indiana Jones was right:P

*pats Sig Sauer P229* Indeed. The thing is, advanced SD gives you more options than just, "run or shoot". If someone pulls a knife... that was a bad decision on their part, but if they have a club or stick... I'd hesitate to kill them. I wouldn't hesitate to give them a spiral fracture in several limbs however.

To me, it's all about options:
1.) RUN! Richard Pryor said it best: "Just RUN! Run run run!"
2.) De-escalate if possible, including complience
3.) You can buy time to draw a sidearm

It's a bit like knowing how to throw a knife... if you ever have to do it, you're probably in deep trouble. By the same token, if it's the last thing you can do, you might as well know howo to do it well.

 

[nismaratwork]

It's amazing how deep these internet conversations become

cant we all agree we're all smart and special

(rules edit) HellNo.


...Concise enough?


@ Lisab

 

[nismaratwork]

Why can't we all be smart and special, yet still want to have deep conversations?

Lack of wit, and the resources to make your point. Not a problem for you, but some may struggle... the poor dears.

 

[FizixFreak]

The issue you seem unable to grasp is that sportsmen have their techniques and physical preparation tested time and again in competition. It is the single most close event to a real fight (including a great deal of arousal and axiety)which you can have without actually training by going out and beating ppl day after day in the neighborhood. It gives you invaluable experience. And this is the reason why competitive fighters in boxing, judo, bjj, wrestlers, mt reign supreme on streets in unarmed combat. Between sparring and competition, they will get an experience in combat most humans only dream of. Self defense trained or not.

In practice what you have most of the time is ppl who says Uchi mata won't work, Kani Basami won't work , boxing sucks, that won't work, and then they get thrown on street on concrete, or get KOed by a boxer who only knows 4 techniques, jab , cross , hook and uppercut in 3 seconds, and the next thing they need is an ambulance

I wasn't talking about sportsmen who have years and years of experience i was talking about people who don't have that much experience in the respective styles they just might hesitate to pull the trigger in a street fight.

 

[dlgoff]

I'm sorry that I haven't followed this entire thread. So this might not be relevant. But here's my daughter sparing to receive her 3rd degree black belt back in 2009.

Yep. She kicked the larger girls butt.

 

[DanP]

I wasn't talking about sportsmen who have years and years of experience i was talking about

Good. What do you think, the ppl who don't have that much experience will ever be able to land properly a cross, one of the most basic and simple techniques out there ? Or they will have any meaningful power in it ? You said that they need to learn the techniques which are taught to military and law enforcement. What chance in hell have they to apply such a technique lacking experience ? Let me tell you. Close to 0. All they get is a false sense of security. Sure that you won't throw anyone after practicing 1 week. And as sure as hell, you'll still punch like a girl after 1 week of punching too :P Nor will you defeat anyone after being thought some of the techniques military personal or law enforcement uses. Simple because you need to learn how to apply them. And this requires sparring. Fighting practice.

Offense in unarmed combat is not so much about individual techniques, but about using movement to acquire a dominant angle of attack, a perturbation of the balance of the opponent, or to secure a dominate position on ground or in clinch , positions from which later you launch appropriate techniques for the specific situation such as striking attacks, throws or a joint locks or strangles. And sometimes this happens so fast than no more 5 seconds pass till one is out of combat. Sometimes not. There is much more to fighting then techniques. Bee-it simple techniques or more complex ones.

Truth is, for ppl with not much experience there is no silver lining. They **must** acquire experience. They have to train and spar and do it time and again, for many months before anything efficient comes out from them.

people who don't have that much experience in the respective styles they just might hesitate to pull the trigger in a street fight.

And where exactly do you see a link between unarmed combat experience in whatever "style", and the ability to use a firearm ? Please ...

 

[DanP]

I'm sorry that I haven't followed this entire thread. So this might not be relevant. But here's my daughter sparing to receive her 3rd degree black belt back in 2009.

Congratulations to her, man.

 

[nismaratwork]

I'm sorry that I haven't followed this entire thread. So this might not be relevant. But here's my daughter sparing to receive her 3rd degree black belt back in 2009.

Yep. She kicked the larger girls butt.

Mazeltov!.. and good for you, supporting her in this.

 

[nismaratwork]

Good. What do you think, the ppl who don't have that much experience will ever be able to land properly a cross, one of the most basic and simple techniques out there ? Or they will have any meaningful power in it ? You said that they need to learn the techniques which are taught to military and law enforcement. What chance in hell have they to apply such a technique lacking experience ? Let me tell you. Close to 0. All they get is a false sense of security. Sure that you won't throw anyone after practicing 1 week. And as sure as hell, you'll still punch like a girl after 1 week of punching too :P Nor will you defeat anyone after being thought some of the techniques military personal or law enforcement uses. Simple because you need to learn how to apply them. And this requires sparring. Fighting practice.

Offense in unarmed combat is not so much about individual techniques, but about using movement to acquire a dominant angle of attack, a perturbation of the balance of the opponent, or to secure a dominate position on ground or in clinch , positions from which later you launch appropriate techniques for the specific situation such as striking attacks, throws or a joint locks or strangles. And sometimes this happens so fast than no more 5 seconds pass till one is out of combat. Sometimes not. There is much more to fighting then techniques. Bee-it simple techniques or more complex ones.

Truth is, for ppl with not much experience there is no silver lining. They **must** acquire experience. They have to train and spar and do it time and again, for many months before anything efficient comes out from them.



And where exactly do you see a link between unarmed combat experience in whatever "style", and the ability to use a firearm ? Please ...

I'd add... people hesitate to pull the REAL trigger too, or believe a gun can be used as a threat. A sidearm is something requiring skill to use in SD/HD, unless you want to die. Or, as the bat-poop crazy counselor from South Africa told me when I was 12, "If you're not Mozambiqueing your target, you're a <BLEEEEEP>." Funny guy, really out of his mind, but I never forgot his lessons.

 

[DanP]

. Or, as the bat-poop crazy counselor from South Africa told me when I was 12, "If you're not Mozambiqueing your target, you're a <BLEEEEEP>." Funny guy, really out of his mind, but I never forgot his lessons.

That shrink had beautiful and meaningful conversations with a 12yo I see.

 

[FizixFreak]

punch like a girl

Says a guy who argued with me about GIRL POWER on the same thread
and did you forgot about the video that i posted? i smell sexism here
Who has a short memory now?

And where exactly do you see a link between unarmed combat experience in whatever "style", and the ability to use a firearm ? Please ... :devil

complete misunderstanding by pulling the trigger i meant executing the technique a figure of speech you know.

 

[lisab]

No.


...Concise enough?

Actually, it's too concise. There's a 4-character minimum rule to post.

 

[nismaratwork]

That shrink had beautiful and meaningful conversations with a 12yo I see.

Oh god... Dan... I fell off my chair! I just "rofl'ed" for the first time in MY LIFE... oK, second, but that time was 15 years ago.

CAMP COUNSELOR... and this may be a language thing... are not 'shrinks', it's just a US term for the people who oversee summer/day campers. It's actually very similar to a system of senpai (Counselors in training), and sensei (Counselors) with the students being the campers. So, in this case he was the head of riflery and archery... he was also the guy who introduced me to shooting skeet... and let me fire his 'private stash'. The guy had a (full-size) Uzi that he thankfully didn't allow us to us. Those who excelled were taken aside for skeet shooting, and some burst-work with a Kalashnikov... I still have one of the shell casings.

In retrospect, I'm probably lucky to be alive... on the other hand, he was amazingly kind and really supported people with a talent he recognized. That he did so against virtually every law on the books didn't seem to faze him for a second.

 

[nismaratwork]

Actually, it's too concise. There's a 4-character minimum rule to post.

Well... I did ask for feedback, right?

edit: edited! https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3150156&postcount=153


I think you'll be pleased.

 

[NBWrestler]

As a high school Junior, wrestling for my school team, I wrestled two different girls, getting pinned both times. At the 145 weight class, I'd like to think I was stronger than either of them, but their skill level was incredible. Cindy (thefirst girl who pinned me) finished me off in only 20 seconds, while the 2nd. girl built up an impressive leasd on points before pinning me in the second period.

 

[KingNothing]

I wrestled in high school, and there was always the occasional female wrestler at tournaments and such. It was awful. It just caused such issues and most of the guys felt bad wrestling them.

I remember one controversial time when a guy forfeit his match (this was in a national tournament) because he didn't feel right wrestling against a girl. She was really mad about it, saying that she couldn't get any real respect as a wrestler. I don't blame her, but at the same time a large portion of her wins were forfeits.