Message to Terrorists: "You Don't Scare Me

[ptabor]

Now, if you want to talk about hatred, get me going on Bush and the people controlling him. That’s when I feel hatred.

Don't you think your hatred would be better spent on those that voted for him the second time around? To me, the fact that this man was re-elected speaks volumes on the mentality of those that show up to vote. Seems to me they are motivated by blind emotion regarding issues such as gay marriage and abortion, as opposed to one's competence in running the executive branch. At least, that's the way things seemed here in Ohio.

 

[Yonoz]

These people are completely mentally warped.

I would like to remind everyone that these people are simply of a different culture with different values and ideals. I recommend reading Jared Diamond's "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel" ", I just learned National Geographic has made it into a series that was featured on PBS.

According to the author, an alternative title would be: "A short history about everyone for the last 13,000 years". But the book is not merely an account of the past; it attempts to explain why Eurasian civilization, as a whole, has survived and conquered others, while refuting the belief that Eurasian hegemony is due to any form of Eurasian intellectual or moral superiority. Diamond argues that the gaps in power and technology between human societies do not reflect cultural or racial differences, but rather originate in environmental differences powerfully amplified by various positive feedback loops.

IMO enlightened morals are the privilege of victors in this day and age. Westerners need to realize and be at peace not only with the fact that the current safety and success that allows them to uphold their values was achieved by their forefathers' ruthless Imperialism, but also the undeniable fact that current western societies are exporting their own value systems to other societies - coincidentally (or not) perpetuating their hegemony. This is not simply a matter of foreign policy. Western ideals and values are finding their way into the Islamic world, and those that align themselves with the west naturally tap into its superior means to gain power - be it financially, technologically or ideologically.
It's only natural therefor that those who oppose the loss of their way of life will fight back. Since by definition they are quite different from the west, their struggle will be quite different too. I am not talking about the mothers of suicide bombers - their sons would not be committing suicide bombings had the conflict remained simply between Israel and the Palestinians - that conflict accounts for only a few pieces out of a global jigsaw puzzle. This entire region did not develop and still does not operate under the laboratory conditions of the European subcontinent. The Middle East is an entirely different theater, in which the players operate by different rules and fight for survival.

 

[Yonoz]

It has come to my attention that my words are taken by some in completely the wrong light. Even my wife Tsu described the opening post as “dripping with hate”. Someone else said that he was “shocked by the depth of the hatred”. In return, this interpretation of my words has really shocked me.

I can relate to that.

I have known many Muslims and consider them to be my friends. In fact, two of my best friends grew up in Iran. In all, I have had or still have friends from Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, the UAE, Libya, Turkey, Pakistan, and probably a few other countries in the area, and I have had no problem working around or understanding our cultural differences. On occasion we have talked openly about our differences and learned to understand each other a little better than before. We have talked plainly about terrorism and US policy in the ME, and I felt anger towards my own government and what we have done. In the end we always find that we have more in common that not; but then they don’t seek to kill innocent people as a matter of personal choice.

Your friends' minds are the power base for which the terrorists fight.

 

[Anttech]

that conflict accounts for only a few pieces out of a global jigsaw puzzle. This entire region did not develop and still does not operate under the laboratory conditions of the European subcontinent.

What do you mean by this?

 

[kyleb]

Now, if you want to talk about hatred, get me going on Bush and the people controlling him. That’s when I feel hatred.

You can be assured that people of the Middle East feel hatred towards the people controlling Bush as well, including the very small minority which engage in terrorism. Of course what the people who control Bush are doing to us is awful, but have you ever taken a long and serious look at what they are doing to people in the Middle East? And then, as Ptabor suggested; who are those 'they' here in this representative democracy?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Don't you think your hatred would be better spent on those that voted for him the second time around? To me, the fact that this man was re-elected speaks volumes on the mentality of those that show up to vote. Seems to me they are motivated by blind emotion regarding issues such as gay marriage and abortion, as opposed to one's competence in running the executive branch. At least, that's the way things seemed here in Ohio.

I know how you feel, but no: Disdain, contempt, outrage, disbelief, shock and horror, sorrow...yes; hatred, no. To me this would be like hating someone who thinks that math and physics are something that we just make up as we go. They don't know any better.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I would like to remind everyone that these people are simply of a different culture with different values and ideals.

The same could be said of LA city gang-bangers. That is not an excuse for killing innocent people. That is a rationalization.

I still have close contact with one of my Iranian friends. So one day I asked him: Davoud, what in the hell should we do about these terrorists? You lived there. You understand what and who we are fighting. What should we do?

His response: We need to kill all of them.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

This thread was motivated by the same person.

Terror as a beehive:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=47808

Thanks to Bush, the bees are all out now.

 

[kyleb]

Anyone here ever read http://www.thenation.com/doc/19860614/said :

As a word and concept, "terrorism" has acquired an extraordinary status in American public discourse. It has displaced Communism as public enemy number one, although there are frequent efforts to tie the two together. It has spawned uses of language, rhetoric and argument that are frightening in their capacity for mobilizing opinion, gaining legitimacy and provoking various sorts of murderous action. And it has imported and canonized an ideology with origins in a distant conflict, which serves the purpose here of institutionalizing the denial and avoidance of history. In short, the elevation of terrorism to the status of a national security threat (though more Americans drown in their bathtubs, are struck by lightning or die in traffic accidents) has deflected careful scrutiny of the government's domestic and foreign policies. Whether the deflection will be longstanding or temporary remains to be seen, but given the almost unconditional assent of the media, intellectuals and policy-makers to the terrorist vogue, the prospects for a return to a semblance of sanity are not encouraging.

That was 20 years ago, and what what he wrote is arguably even more relevant today.

 

[kyleb]

I still have close contact with one of my Iranian friends. So one day I asked him: Davoud, what in the hell should we do about these terrorists? You lived there. You understand what and who we are fighting. What should we do?

His response: We need to kill all of them.

'Them' as in terrorists? We only need to kill the ones we can't otherwise capture while defending ourselves; the rest will die in time as we all do. But we can't kill all the terrorists just like we can't kill all the 'pro-abortionists' or whatever; what we can do is reduce the motivating factors by which current future generations might be influenced to do such things.

 

[JasonRox]

'Them' as in terrorists? We only need to kill the ones we can't otherwise capture while defending ourselves; the rest will die in time as we all do. But we can't kill all the terrorists just like we can't kill all the 'pro-abortionists' or whatever; what we can do is reduce the motivating factors by which current future generations might be influenced to do such things.

Kill pro-abornists! WTF?

I just stopped in and this is what I read. I'm pro-abortion, so I guess it is my mission to kill you first.

 

[Kurdt]

This is a prime example of a political system in turmoil. Not just in the US but Europe aswell. Political figures no longer work out issues through rational discourse, but get elected with pledges to certain groups of people. For example we need to wage war on terror if you feel like me vote for me, rather than I propose a foreign policy that is based upon decisions reached through debate, intelligence information and diplomacy to decide the correct possible course of action at this time.

The gravity of electing single issue campaigners is enormous, and can only logically come to horrific conclusions if the people in charge are immovable irrational biggots. This terror situation should be an alert for the respective electorates. Both Europe and the US have been offered a truce by Bin Laden, and both declined instantly as a show of strength against terror. This may have been a great show of strength but it was an awful show of wisdom and intellect.

 

[Yonoz]

What do you mean by this?

I mean Europe has evolved into its current form under unique conditions mentioned more explicitly in Jared Diamond's book, giving birth to its current moral system. Societies in other regions developed under different conditions and therefor have different value systems. Any critique on the norms of such societies must take into account the ways by which these norms came to be.

 

[kyleb]

Kill pro-abornists! WTF?

I just stopped in and this is what I read. I'm pro-abortion, so I guess it is my mission to kill you first.

Replace 'pro-abortionists' with 'anti-abortionists' if you like. It was just an example, not thing to get rilled up about. I don't have a problem with you unless you are planing to forcibly abort fetuses, that would be an over my dead body situation. ;)

 

[Yonoz]

The same could be said of LA city gang-bangers. That is not an excuse for killing innocent people. That is a rationalization.

I never said it was an excuse. If you want any solution that does not involve serious clashes you must understand exactly what parties are at conflict and what motivates each of them. Then you can figure what is required of your party(ies) to coexist with others and to whom you prefer to yield and with whom you prefer to clash.

 

[franznietzsche]

\
The gravity of electing single issue campaigners is enormous, and can only logically come to horrific conclusions if the people in charge are immovable irrational biggots. This terror situation should be an alert for the respective electorates. Both Europe and the US have been offered a truce by Bin Laden, and both declined instantly as a show of strength against terror. This may have been a great show of strength but it was an awful show of wisdom and intellect.

So if Ted Bundy offered a truce to the FBI, they should have just let him go?

Hmmm...

Bin Laden is just another two-bit murderer. Nothing more.

 

[Gokul43201]

Bin Laden is just another two-bit murderer. Nothing more.

How many "two-bit murderers" do you know who enjoy the unflinching support of millions around the world and at least the half-hearted sympathy of hundreds of millions?

 

[Yonoz]

How many "two-bit murderers" do you know who enjoy the unflinching support of millions around the world and at least the half-hearted sympathy of hundreds of millions?

I can think of a few. As time passed people realized it was better to deal with them harshly before they got so powerful.
Let us not repeat our mistakes.

 

[Anttech]

How many "two-bit murderers" do you know who enjoy the unflinching support of millions around the world and at least the half-hearted sympathy of hundreds of millions?

Millions?

I think you will find that *millions* agree with the fact the US foreign policy is hurting millions. They would also agree that the US needs to remove itself from the ME, and Iraq.

*But* it doesn't follow that because of this, millions support him. The Arabic world has been bombed by Bin Laden or his duplicate through the 70's and 80's. They don't want terrorism, really its true!

 

[Gokul43201]

I can think of a few.

Wow! And what term do you then use to describe hopelessly lagging slashers like Bundy and Sobhraj?

 

[Anttech]

IMHO the Neocons, and there ideology is as powerfully bad as the Islamists ideology, talk about being stuck between a hard place and a rock.

Things will change in the next 12 months as T.Blair leaves office in the UK. His successor will *not* cuddle up to the neocons like Blair did. Bush's one true friend (outside of Isreal) is leaving, and the global politcal landscape will change somewhat. I am not asserting that the US government really gives a rats about a little island of Europe, but it will have an impact as far as Europes stance is.

 

[Kurdt]

So if Ted Bundy offered a truce to the FBI, they should have just let him go?

Hmmm...

Bin Laden is just another two-bit murderer. Nothing more.

There is no way you can compare that to Ted Bundy.

 

[Anttech]

I mean Europe has evolved into its current form under unique conditions mentioned more explicitly in Jared Diamond's book, giving birth to its current moral system. Societies in other regions developed under different conditions and therefor have different value systems. Any critique on the norms of such societies must take into account the ways by which these norms came to be.

Why the use of the word laboratory?

I think you are stating the obvious in that all cultures are based on unique conditions. Anyway yes you are right, to criticize a *culture* it would be prudent to understand that culture first. How liberal of you

 

[Gokul43201]

Millions?

I think you will find that *millions* agree with the fact the US foreign policy is hurting millions. They would also agree that the US needs to remove itself from the ME, and Iraq.

*But* it doesn't follow that because of this, millions support him.

But I made no such argument. Currently, I'd imagine that at least a billion or two are strongly against the present US administration.

Afghanistan and Pakistan alone have a combined population of about 200 million people. What fraction of these people, do you imagine, wouldn't feel honored to have the opportunity to help bin Laden? What kind of loyal support must he have that incredible bounties have yielded no information on his location in the last five years? What kind of popularity and power does it take for al Qaeda to be able to recruit hundreds or thousands of members each year.

 

[franznietzsche]

There is no way you can compare that to Ted Bundy.

Why? Because Bin laden is a more efficient murderer? He's nothing but a murdering thug all the same.

 

[Yonoz]

Wow! And what term do you then use to describe hopelessly lagging slashers like Bundy and Sobhraj?

I was being sarcastic, I'm sure history's greatest murderers were at some point viewed by outsiders as "two-bit murderers".

 

[Anttech]

But I made no such argument. Currently, I'd imagine that at least a billion or two are strongly against the present US administration.

Afghanistan and Pakistan alone have a combined population of about 200 million people. What fraction of these people, do you imagine, wouldn't feel honored to have the opportunity to help bin Laden? What kind of loyal support must he have that incredible bounties have yielded no information on his location in the last five years?

I think you will find a very very small fraction of people in these regions follow the islamist ideology. They may *prefer* Laden over Bush, but they wouldn't be supporters of him (Bin Laden). My 2 cents.

 

[Kurdt]

Why? Because Bin laden is a more efficient murderer? He's nothing but a murdering thug all the same.

Because you fail to realize that its not Bin Laden you're fighting. You're fighting an idea and a way of life as described in the Quran (or certain versions of it) and Bin Laden is itself appointed defender and is doing what he (and many others) believes is correct. He has sanctioned the murder of other people but in a completely different way to people like Ted Bundy. The murder of the Al Qaeda leader in Iraq is proof that if you remove one there will be others to step up. The US and its Allies have no idea who the new man in Iraq is but the bombings and acts of terror there have not stopped. You can't fight an idea by removing the people that promote it and you can't stop the violence by treating the leaders as murderers like Ted Bundy.

 

[franznietzsche]

Because you fail to realize that its not Bin Laden you're fighting. You're fighting an idea and a way of life as described in the Quran (or certain versions of it) and Bin Laden is itself appointed defender and is doing what he (and many others) believes is correct. He has sanctioned the murder of other people but in a completely different way to people like Ted Bundy. The murder of the Al Qaeda leader in Iraq is proof that if you remove one there will be others to step up. The US and its Allies have no idea who the new man in Iraq is but the bombings and acts of terror there have not stopped. You can't fight an idea by removing the people that promote it and you can't stop the violence by treating the leaders as murderers like Ted Bundy.

I'm sorry, I had to laugh. Its out of my system now.

You've entirely missed my point. Its ok, I forgive you.

The problem in the middle east is the same, IMO. The culture is one such that the will of the people means roughly nothing. In iraq, the different religious factions will not recognize each other as legitimate. Culturally, the region is not capable of democracy because it is not a culture that recognizes the equality of all people, it does not recognize that all people are equally unfit to rule any others. The religion of islamic terrorists is kinda like Calvinism--everyone else is scum. Go forth and slaughter, and enslave.

Terrorists are nothing but murderers. They may have had valid political complaints--but they forfeited any and all rights to have those heard and addressed when they chose to murder civilians. The only right they have now, is to rot in prison, for the rest of their lives--if that much.

 

[wolram]

Ask yourself one question, would you kill yourself for a cause, and kill inoccent people in doing so, i think terrorist are are the lowest form of humanity, and certain people should reflect that they supported it, it has to be stopped now, with global approval , (any) organisation, power, individual supporting terrorism should be quashed , and that includes the most powerful nation on earth.

 

[Yonoz]

Why the use of the word laboratory?

I was using the phrase "laboratory conditions" to underline that while European nations were wreaking havoc on foreign lands, they laid the foundations inside their safe little home for their current successful incarnations. Jared Diamond describes how various conditions gave Europeans advantages that allowed them to conquer even some of history's strongest and most advanced civilizations.

I think you are stating the obvious in that all cultures are based on unique conditions. Anyway yes you are right, to criticize a *culture* it would be prudent to understand that culture first.

It may be obvious but it is quite evident from some of the posts the difficulty westerners face when trying to emulate what goes on in the minds of simple everyday folk from other societies. I was trying to simplify the problem, perhaps I was presenting my view too plainly.

How liberal of you

I try to keep an open mind.

 

[Kurdt]

I agree that peple that have comitted terrorist acts should be punished for what they have done. What I was saying is that if you take out one terrorist then there will be another to replace him/her and you're in a never ending cycle. When you are then offered a truce and a chance to discuss the issues and ignore it then to me that is unforgivable.

 

[Gokul43201]

I think you will find a very very small fraction of people in these regions follow the islamist ideology. They may *prefer* Laden over Bush, but they wouldn't be supporters of him (Bin Laden). My 2 cents.

I'm fairly certain you are grossly mistaken. The Washington Post reported about a couple of years ago about an internal Saudi poll that suggested that something like 4% of the population wanted bin Laden to rule their country (Saudi Arabia). 4% of 27 million people is over a million.

I couldn't find that article, but in searching for it, I found this one from a year ago:

The survey found only 2 percent of the people polled in Lebanon and 7 percent in Turkey expressing confidence that bin Laden would "do the right thing regarding world affairs." The proportion that expressed confidence in the al Qaeda leader dropped from almost half to about a quarter in Morocco, and from 58 percent to 37 percent in Indonesia. Bin Laden's standing went up slightly in Pakistan, to 51 percent, and in Jordan, to 60 percent.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/14/AR2005071401030_2.html

Pakistan and Indonesia have a combined population of over 500 million.

 

[franznietzsche]

I agree that peple that have comitted terrorist acts should be punished for what they have done. What I was saying is that if you take out one terrorist then there will be another to replace him/her and you're in a never ending cycle. When you are then offered a truce and a chance to discuss the issues and ignore it then to me that is unforgivable.

Wrong. Accepting a truce with a murderer, implies letting him off the hook. Not going to happen. Period.

 

[Kurdt]

Negotiating with someone does not imply that you are lettiung them off the hook, nor does it make you look weak. Well we'll have to agree to disagree. I just think that it would be easier to address the wider issues that's all. If you wish to continue suffering terrorist attacks then fine.