Musical Chills: Do You Experience Them?

[wolram]

I think the noise of the engine is like some primeval power, a power that goes right through me, i can remember when i went to a disco and stood right by the speakers and the base
notes had the same effect.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Thanks wolram, I understand that. I like being near speakers playing base.

 

[rhody]

Ok, I have posted this scenario before, however the circumstances are slightly different this time. Backdrop, protected state walking trail around a point extending out to the ocean, time late afternoon just before sunset, weather almost clear, temps in the 30's F that is. About 9/10ths of the way through the walk, with the sun setting in front of me, just a sliver appeared framed about 6 miles away, bushes and small trees to the left, right, my mind during the walk was shifting from one subject to another, Pink Floyd, "The Wall" playing in the background. No special feelings etc, until, the sun dipped below the horizon, for the next minute and a half, I shifted my position so that the small tree with naked branches framed the sunset, like a photographer. Then a sudden feeling of awe and appreciation of beauty swept through me, and with it chills. It lasted about 90 seconds, then off to my right a surprise, apparently about a dozen deer I was unaware of had had enough of me standing there, I wasn't aware of them until they made enough noise that I heard something, as I looked their way all I see is bouncing white tails. A nice touch, they couldn't have been more than fifty yards away tops, this is because the refuge is protected and they are warily used to people.

A nice way to wrap a day, IMHO.

Rhody...

 

[fuzzyfelt]

A great way to wrap up a day, Rhody! So it was visual too? Lovely.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

I know the song well, its very uplifting. Thanks, Atombomb.

 

[lisab]

The personality trait of 'openness' has been linked to musical chills:

...they took 196 people and assessed their music preferences; how often they experienced chills, goose bumps, hair standing on end and the like; their engagement with music (such as whether they played an instrument); and their personality types. The only personality trait with a significant impact on music-induced chills was indeed “openness.”

http://bodyodd.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2010/12/09/5619731-messiah-give-you-chills-thats-a-clue-to-your-personality

 

[altistitar]

It's been a long time since I've visited these forums, so forgive me for not reading through the whole thread. But one piece that gives me the musical goosebumps every time is the last movement of Dvorak's "American" String Quartet, no. 12. Try it! Especially the part when the first violin starts the melody with the double stops... :)

 

[fluidistic]

Yes of course I do chill out with music. I can repeat over and over with the same terrible chills in this performance: at around minute 7, second 36 when he hits his bandoneon with his hands, this is just too much for my emotions.
Very nice concert by the way.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

The personality trait of 'openness' has been linked to musical chills:



http://bodyodd.msnbc.msn.com/_news/...e-you-chills-thats-a-clue-to-your-personality

Very interesting that it could be related to an openess to experience, thanks for linking that, lisab. I shouldn't judge by this thread, but even so, it seems many have this experience that may reflect a further openess to experience.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Fantastic pieces, altistitar and fluidisitc, and thanks for your affirmative responses!

 

[BeXti]

Yes I do experience music chills on a daily basis. I can more or less control them by choosing to focus more on the music instead of basically tuning out. I don't play an instrument however.

 

[cobalt124]

I have experienced this. I'm not musically minded as such, the only times I have been keenly interested in music it would be mainly music from the mid 70's to the mid eighties (mostly punk and new romantic), no genre interest now as such. I've never mastered an instrument, have attempted euphonium, guitar, penny whistle and accordion with negligible success. Having said that, here is some of the music that has given me chills:

Opera:
Ride of the Valkyries, Siegfrieds Funeral March and another bit in Gotterdammerung I can't identify (no opera buff here). I suspect a lot of Wagner would.

Classical:
Mozart: Piano Concerto 21 "nd Movement
Handel: Messiah, Ode to Joy

Psychedelic?:
The Velvet Undreground: Heroin, Sister Ray

T.V.
The High Chaparral Theme
Closing credits to the 60's series The Prisoner

Punk: Joy Division: Heart and Soul (only happened once)

New Romantic: Ultravox: Astradyne

There are others, these are the ones I immediately recall. They are all from years ago. I cannot remember the last time I had chills.

Reading has also given me the chills, but, despite being a big film buff in the past, I can never remember having chills from watching a film.

It seems to me you have to invest something in the music to make this happen, and that the actual sound does not do it on its own, and you have to be in the right frame of mind as well.

When I get time, I'm going to listen to the suggestions posted, just for curiousities sake.

 

[Digitalism]

I used to experience it, but I haven't in two years or so. Maybe I haven't heard good enough music.

Check out last.fm. It is like Pandora but better.

 

[rhody]

Fuzzy,

I have described many things that result in my experiencing chills, besides music, no one has mentioned how long they last, the intensity, are they waxing, waning, etc... I read part of a book published by http://blog.ted.com/2008/03/12/jill_bolte_tayl/".

Dr. Taylor also speaks about the 90 seconds of emotions (90 seconds of anger/90seconds of happiness – on this blog) and how after 90 seconds the brain’s message about an event is beginning to leave our systems and how we have a choice as to how we are going to react to any situation. It is within our power after the 90 second message.

That thought stuck with me all summer after reading the book, and I guess in the back of my mind I started to paying attention to it. I consider 90 seconds of "chills" as described in this thread to be associated with a "positive emotion", not an empty one, if there is such a thing, lol. Here is what I have found. While still taking folic acid (400 mcg daily) supplements earlier this year, I can honestly say roughly that was the period of time a cycle of chills would take to run it's course. However, if I linked the last thought or experience to another one that would cause chills with the same intensity, I got another "full cycle of chills that would last about the same amount of time". If I waited too long after the first "chill cycle" it was difficult if not impossible to cause the same level of chills for the same amount of time. I guess this is due to some "priming effect" possibly associated with histamine release of the organs ability to produce it in sufficient quantities to cause the chill sensation.

One more thought, 90 seconds for emotions, and 90 minutes is thought to be the maximum amount of time one can stay focused on a task without a break in concentration. Of course there are examples of people able to spend more and less time in focused concentration. Is there an underlying principle that goes with this ? Or worse, a scientist or group of scientists have discovered it, and are we just ignorant in discovering it ourselves ?

Rhody...

P.S. How many following this thread can honestly say they have had chills for about 90 seconds, second, how many have had a cycle of chill events, 2 or more in close succession. For me, I would say the maximum was three cycles.

 

[cobalt124]

To answer your P.S. Rhody, I never had a cycle of more than one, and the chill event would have lasted about thirty seconds. I never really thought about this in great detail, just enjoyed the experience, thought it was a bit weird, and then not paid it any further attention.

 

[rhody]

To answer your P.S. Rhody, I never had a cycle of more than one, and the chill event would have lasted about thirty seconds. I never really thought about this in great detail, just enjoyed the experience, thought it was a bit weird, and then not paid it any further attention.

cobalt,

Hope things are going well for you. I am beginning to wonder if this experience is not part of a mild version of OCD, not sure because I have never read any studies to confirm or deny, will keep my eyes open for them if they exist. Repeated good feelings trump repeated cycles or worry any day, right ?

Rhody...

 

[cobalt124]

Rhody, never thought of it like that, I only saw it as experience and never as far as attaching feelings to it, which is one of my "issues to address". Not sure about the OCD link either (not an expert of course), but definitely something to bear in mind. Your last sentence is definitely true. Good to catch somebody online, I was beginning to think I was on a different time zone to everyone else on the planet.

 

[rhody]

After my previous post about time and spacing of chills, I can report after a productive work day ending with less stress than usual, l was in an upbeat mood, went to the gym, 30 minute elliptical workout, listening to music, I experienced three sets of chills about ten minutes apart, the first around 6 minutes into the ride was quite intense, lasted I would say about 30-45 seconds, and the feeling was good, the second about 10 minutes later was not as intense, lasted no more than 20 seconds, and if you can imagine yourself swinging around a barber pole in slow motion, good feelings were followed by what I would call "suppressed sadness", and then back again to good feelings, very weird. The third, around 26 minutes into the workout lasted only about 20 seconds, and the thought of a loved one who passed was accompanied by what I call a nice chill, if there is such a thing.

I believe when I was taking folic acid, 400 mcg daily, that when I did notice chills, they were more intense and lasted considerably longer, funny to think that this B vitamin could have such an effect, all I can say is for me it does.

Rhody...

 

[cobalt124]

This is a great thread. I've just had a very enjoyable two hours or so listening to the chills suggestions on this thread and have remembered loads more musical chills I have experienced. Here are some results.

John Denver - Calypso - small chill factor but I suspect not primarily the music but more the passion about the subject of the song.

Jussi Bjorling - got a chill from this hearing it for the first time, though it may not count as such as it is the tenor voice that is causing it. Similar with Fritz Wunderlich but not as strong. Reminded me of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbLl2C3ChYY&feature=related

which along with chills has reduced me to tears (of passion, I think). And this from The Enigma of Kasper Hauser (I said that films did not give me chills, that was an outright lie).

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...85300426026&mid=EB7FDFFFFD2251DD34FFEB7FDFFFF

D2251DD34FF&FORM=LKVR1# (the first 3:10)

Here, it is only the music. As for Pachelbel and the wind blowing in the field, I find the combination moving. If anyone knows who the tenor is, it was recorded in the early 1900's and is from The Magic Flute I believe, and if it's on CD anywhere, I'd be grateful, I've been looking for it for decades now. Later in the same film:

(2:30-5:20)

This gives me serious chills. Its a combination of the music, the film, and the story it tells (to me) of Kasper Hauser being abandoned to his fate (the sleeve notes for my (long lost) video of the film claimed he was being set free). But the music on its own does it, I just tried it. Again, if anybody knows a CD recording please.

Chills worth a mention. Bands that have given me chills include Pink Floyd, U2 and Coldplay. Richard Strauss' and Gyorgi Ligetis' music in 2001:A Space Odyssey (this is just the music, not the film). Saint-Saëns Symphony No. 3 'Organ' (4/4) (the start). Rossinis The Thieving Magpie Overture and William Tell Overture (the "happy can can type finale does it for me" (the vamped up Lone Ranger version though)), Griegs Morning and In the Hall of the Mountain King, Ode to Joy (simple to play, it was one of my first guitar lessons) Sherman and Sherman (lyrics and music here).

As a quick aside I thought Rolls Royce engines were supposed to be quiet.

Cat Stevens Moonshadow is one of my favourite songs and I think it stands out for me because of the chill factor. I listen to Teaser and the Firecat and I find this song is amazing, Morning has Broken comes next, and the rest I find totally dull. I had this theory that Cat Stevens couldn't have written Moonshadow because it IMO stands miles above the rest (he didn't write the lyrics to Morning Has Broken, not sure about the music), but it could just be that it give me chills and that is what I have always been looking for in a good song.

Someone mentioned national anthems giving chills South Africas national anthem does it for me. It sounds honest.

Here are some more:

http://www.nme.com/nme-video/youtube/id/osdgmGvC5S4





(the organist is amazing)

Closing theme from Once Upon a Time in the West. I'm with turtlemeister on this. Amazing music (getting a tingle down my spine typing this). Similar response as the choir in Kaspar Hauser. From one of my top ten films (along with Kaspe Hauser). Now I come to think of it, my top ten films seemed to be a "Top Ten Chillers" list. Close behind this for me is "The Trio" from The Good, The Bad and the Ugly.

So now I am going to attempt to draw some conclusions (in a non-expert manner). The following seems to give me chills: feedback, tenor voice, organ music, highly emotive music and music with structure and repetition. I can get chills on a first hearing, as this happened listening to Karl Orff. The feedback and the punk music gves me a chill but seem to have no emotional response to it, whereas the other examples do. I wonder if the sound of feedback, tenor voice and organ have any connection. It is continuous sound rather than discrete notes. Anyhow, I'm lost here. Thinking about it now, I seem to have been greedy and wanted this chill factor all the time, and this is how I have measured a good film or good music. That doesn't seem the right way to go about it. My chill cycle record is now two and duration record above ninety seconds.

I hope there may be something somebody can extract from this. As for me I've had a thoroughly enjoyable evening doing this, and you have put a smile on my face. Thankyou all.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Fuzzy,

I have described many things that result in my experiencing chills, besides music, no one has mentioned how long they last, the intensity, are they waxing, waning, etc... I read part of a book published by http://blog.ted.com/2008/03/12/jill_bolte_tayl/".


That thought stuck with me all summer after reading the book, and I guess in the back of my mind I started to paying attention to it. I consider 90 seconds of "chills" as described in this thread to be associated with a "positive emotion", not an empty one, if there is such a thing, lol. Here is what I have found. While still taking folic acid (400 mcg daily) supplements earlier this year, I can honestly say roughly that was the period of time a cycle of chills would take to run it's course. However, if I linked the last thought or experience to another one that would cause chills with the same intensity, I got another "full cycle of chills that would last about the same amount of time". If I waited too long after the first "chill cycle" it was difficult if not impossible to cause the same level of chills for the same amount of time. I guess this is due to some "priming effect" possibly associated with histamine release of the organs ability to produce it in sufficient quantities to cause the chill sensation.

One more thought, 90 seconds for emotions, and 90 minutes is thought to be the maximum amount of time one can stay focused on a task without a break in concentration. Of course there are examples of people able to spend more and less time in focused concentration. Is there an underlying principle that goes with this ? Or worse, a scientist or group of scientists have discovered it, and are we just ignorant in discovering it ourselves ?

Rhody...

P.S. How many following this thread can honestly say they have had chills for about 90 seconds, second, how many have had a cycle of chill events, 2 or more in close succession. For me, I would say the maximum was three cycles.

Really interesting, thanks Rhody!

I'd be interested to time the sensation, too and note if it is cyclical. (I've taken folic supplements before, when I was thinking about becoming pregnant, but always crave leafy greens, particularly rocket.) More things to report back about :) ! Regarding the tequila thread, the weather here has improved enough to be messing around in boats, so that might not take too long.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

This is a great thread. I've just had a very enjoyable two hours or so listening to the chills suggestions on this thread and have remembered loads more musical chills I have experienced. Here are some results.

John Denver - Calypso - small chill factor but I suspect not primarily the music but more the passion about the subject of the song.

Jussi Bjorling - got a chill from this hearing it for the first time, though it may not count as such as it is the tenor voice that is causing it. Similar with Fritz Wunderlich but not as strong. Reminded me of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbLl2C3ChYY&feature=related

which along with chills has reduced me to tears (of passion, I think). And this from The Enigma of Kasper Hauser (I said that films did not give me chills, that was an outright lie).

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...85300426026&mid=EB7FDFFFFD2251DD34FFEB7FDFFFF

D2251DD34FF&FORM=LKVR1# (the first 3:10)

Here, it is only the music. As for Pachelbel and the wind blowing in the field, I find the combination moving. If anyone knows who the tenor is, it was recorded in the early 1900's and is from The Magic Flute I believe, and if it's on CD anywhere, I'd be grateful, I've been looking for it for decades now. Later in the same film:

(2:30-5:20)

This gives me serious chills. Its a combination of the music, the film, and the story it tells (to me) of Kasper Hauser being abandoned to his fate (the sleeve notes for my (long lost) video of the film claimed he was being set free). But the music on its own does it, I just tried it. Again, if anybody knows a CD recording please.

Chills worth a mention. Bands that have given me chills include Pink Floyd, U2 and Coldplay. Richard Strauss' and Gyorgi Ligetis' music in 2001:A Space Odyssey (this is just the music, not the film). Saint-Saëns Symphony No. 3 'Organ' (4/4) (the start). Rossinis The Thieving Magpie Overture and William Tell Overture (the "happy can can type finale does it for me" (the vamped up Lone Ranger version though)), Griegs Morning and In the Hall of the Mountain King, Ode to Joy (simple to play, it was one of my first guitar lessons) Sherman and Sherman (lyrics and music here).

As a quick aside I thought Rolls Royce engines were supposed to be quiet.

Cat Stevens Moonshadow is one of my favourite songs and I think it stands out for me because of the chill factor. I listen to Teaser and the Firecat and I find this song is amazing, Morning has Broken comes next, and the rest I find totally dull. I had this theory that Cat Stevens couldn't have written Moonshadow because it IMO stands miles above the rest (he didn't write the lyrics to Morning Has Broken, not sure about the music), but it could just be that it give me chills and that is what I have always been looking for in a good song.

Someone mentioned national anthems giving chills South Africas national anthem does it for me. It sounds honest.

Here are some more:

http://www.nme.com/nme-video/youtube/id/osdgmGvC5S4





(the organist is amazing)

Closing theme from Once Upon a Time in the West. I'm with turtlemeister on this. Amazing music (getting a tingle down my spine typing this). Similar response as the choir in Kaspar Hauser. From one of my top ten films (along with Kaspe Hauser). Now I come to think of it, my top ten films seemed to be a "Top Ten Chillers" list. Close behind this for me is "The Trio" from The Good, The Bad and the Ugly.

So now I am going to attempt to draw some conclusions (in a non-expert manner). The following seems to give me chills: feedback, tenor voice, organ music, highly emotive music and music with structure and repetition. I can get chills on a first hearing, as this happened listening to Karl Orff. The feedback and the punk music gves me a chill but seem to have no emotional response to it, whereas the other examples do. I wonder if the sound of feedback, tenor voice and organ have any connection. It is continuous sound rather than discrete notes. Anyhow, I'm lost here. Thinking about it now, I seem to have been greedy and wanted this chill factor all the time, and this is how I have measured a good film or good music. That doesn't seem the right way to go about it. My chill cycle record is now two and duration record above ninety seconds.

I hope there may be something somebody can extract from this. As for me I've had a thoroughly enjoyable evening doing this, and you have put a smile on my face. Thankyou all.

Thank you Cobalt for enjoying the thread, and for your contributions. Very nice :) !

 

[billiards]

So Nature Neuroscience have just published a paper on the musical chills.

http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/vaop/ncurrent/abs/nn.2726.html

Anatomically distinct dopamine release during anticipation and experience of peak emotion to music

Valorie N Salimpoor, Mitchel Benovoy, Kevin Larcher, Alain Dagher & Robert J Zatorre

Music, an abstract stimulus, can arouse feelings of euphoria and craving, similar to tangible rewards that involve the striatal dopaminergic system. Using the neurochemical specificity of [11C]raclopride positron emission tomography scanning, combined with psychophysiological measures of autonomic nervous system activity, we found endogenous dopamine release in the striatum at peak emotional arousal during music listening. To examine the time course of dopamine release, we used functional magnetic resonance imaging with the same stimuli and listeners, and found a functional dissociation: the caudate was more involved during the anticipation and the nucleus accumbens was more involved during the experience of peak emotional responses to music. These results indicate that intense pleasure in response to music can lead to dopamine release in the striatal system. Notably, the anticipation of an abstract reward can result in dopamine release in an anatomical pathway distinct from that associated with the peak pleasure itself. Our results help to explain why music is of such high value across all human societies.

I don't pretend to know anything about neuroscience, but interesting to see someone's done research on this.

 

[mugaliens]

I'm just appreciative of the chills down my spine!

 

[lisab]

I'm just appreciative of the chills down my spine!

That's just the dopamine talking.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

So Nature Neuroscience have just published a paper on the musical chills.

http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/vaop/ncurrent/abs/nn.2726.html



I don't pretend to know anything about neuroscience, but interesting to see someone's done research on this.

Very interesting and positive, thanks a lot billiards!

"This reward is entirely abstract and may involve such factors as suspended expectations and a sense of resolution."

 

[rhody]

OK, the hiatus is over, the never ending stressful job assignment is done, at least for the moment. I have some spare neurons left at the end of the day, time to put them to good use.

Fuzzy I read this awhile ago, just reread a portion that you may find interesting. I don't believe this train of thought has been presented, so here goes.
From: "Mapping the Mind", by Rita Carter, pages: 147 - 149: I will summarize. evidence suggests that our brains are molded by our genes to create and understand music as they are to understand language. There is speculation that long ago music served as a prototype communication system, This is because music appreciation seems to be wired into some of the dumbest animals on earth. Jaak Panksepp a psychologist played different pieces of music to a flock of chickens. Believe it or not, certain passages from Pink Floyd's album, "The Final Cut" caused the chickens to rock on, ruffling their feathers and shaking their heads from side to side. Panksepp believes that this behavior is equivalent to "musical chills" experienced by people when they hear musical effects.

Tingle triggers are sudden shifts of harmony. or sequences that set up expectation of a particular resolution, then delay or subvert it. The emotional pattern: relaxation-arousal-tension-relief-relaxation. People nearly always observe that a piece of music provokes an emotion. Panksepp says that sound is processed in parallel in the limbic system, noting only its emotion tone. He says the tingle most likely arises from unconscious emotional processing. The cries of an infant separated from his or her mother has been shown to trigger a drop in oxytocin, as well as a drop in temperature. When reunited with their mother, her temperature rises as well as her oxytocin levels. The infant responds with a resolving cry which is similar to a satisfying closing phrase of music, triggering the response described in his or her mother.

Rhody...

It feels good to be back, however, I feel a bit rusty... My brain is full of other stuff that is now not needed as badly. BTW, the transition to the new "state" of being took 4 to 6 weeks to establish it's memories (for immediate retrieval in daily duties) in my brain, inline with Merzenich's observations. I believe my work recent work experience backs his findings, at least somewhat.

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Welcome back!

And that is marvellous info, thanks so much!

I love the idea of chickens indulging in ‘Two suns in the sunset’ and the like. I’ve read chickens and other animals like a constant noise, absence of noise is a warning. I really enjoy Panksepp's observations.


Darwin himself, S. Brown, A. Wray, J. Jordania and Mithen have had similar ideas about music and language.

 

[GerbenD]

I'm not much of a scientist to be honest, the physics field is a bit new to me...

However I am very interested in this subject, so I decided to register for this!

A while back I first consciously experienced this feeling. I had felt it very often before, but never actually stood still by it's presence. This feeling came to me through music. But also through nature...

Now recently I've learned that people can experience the same thing when looking at art. Since I'm studying art and hoping to make art that can give me (and perhaps others) these chills, I've gained some interest on the subject.

I started with trying to find out what it was in music that gave me these chills. Later on I would find the research done by Panksepp and Huron, but not after making a list with music and chill-moments.

I opened the list with classical pieces that I had recently discovered and could listen to several times a day and still get the chills...

J.S. Bach -- BWV 783 2-part invention #12 -- Glenn Gould after 27 seconds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zc7Zk33ImNI"

J.S. Bach -- BWV 781 2-part invention #10 -- Glenn Gould after 24 seconds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32mqWa1TPeQ"

L. Beethoven Piano Concerto #5 in E flat major, Op.73, II at 1.41 and 5.25
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvaLDtf5JW8&feature=related"

S. Rachmaninov -- Pianoconcerto #3, I- Allegro Ma Non Tanto -- B.Glemser at 1.20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVFMRkE0250"

and more of these... so like the first post of the topic, I was thinking, maybe the gender has something to do with it? It's all classical so far...

Then I came to realize that I had these chills before I had gained this sudden interest in classical music.

Rolling Stones -- You can’t always get what you want at 4.24
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OagFIQMs1tw&feature=related"

The Rolling Stones, but also the Red Hot Chilipeppers, Jimi Hendrix, Kyteman and Nina Simone managed to find their way into the list.

At first I was thinking the complexity gave me the chills. Mainly because that was when I got the chills from nature experiences, when I tried to take in all the details and admire all the twisted shapes of branches and leaves and the clouds at the same time. The Bach inventions worked sort of the same way.

But, the list disagrees, not everything in it was all that complicated... what it did require however was attention. If I am just playing it in the background nothing happens. Crescendo's, decrescendos, more instruments, less instruments, high registers, low registers, they all appeared in several pieces of music on the list. There was no real help in trying to find a common overlap in music.

So in came the nature experiences that gave me the same kind of chill. Grand Canyon, Yosemite, some other big inspiring places, but also some small park in the neighbourhood. While big things seemed to make a bigger chance, they were not the only things that could give me chills. It also came with a sort of realization of how big this place is, and how much there is unexplored.

Now David Huron, with his theory of fears being neutralized or even turned into pleasure, he also spoke about other causes of frisson. (another word for these ' chills ' we are discribing)

He names (among others): music, nature, touch, a warm bath, a sudden flash of insight.

That last one is playing in my head at the moment. The theory is, that the insight comes suddenly and is somewhat scary at first, somewhat unexpected big brainstimulation I guess...

I guess you know the feeling (I do recognize it now, although I didn't at first link it with the feeling I get from music... it is the same.)

You are doing some maths or thinking on a problem very hard, and all of a sudden you know that you know the answer. It is not all there, clear in your head, but you know that you have solved it. This comes with a chill but you still have to work it out.

Can't the same be true for those chills one can find in art and nature? That the brain suddenly makes some sort of connection that you didn't expect and suddenly have this feeling: "Wow, fantastic" or maybe even "I understand it now" (while you can't exactly say what it is you are understanding...)

Or is it like Kandinsky thought, and with him many other artists, Plato and some other philosphers? People have a sense of harmony in their mind. Not many (if any) are able to show that harmony, but many of us can recognize it. Maybe this kind of sense goes up for musical harmonies (not so much harmonies but a sense for composition, rythm, melody, or what else there might be), color harmonies, shape harmonies, smell (think of the fresh smell of a morning in the forest) and sense harmonies (a certain temperature-shift? Or maybe a texture like quality you can touch, or being in the water..)

Anyways, I've been doing a lot of thinking on the subject and I haven't gotten anywhere yet. But oh well that's what a lot of us artists & philosophers do... For answers we've got you physics people...

I do think that this can be explained by delving deeper into neurology though. We just need to understand a little bit more about how the brain processes senses and visual images. And more importantly how that relates to chills. I haven't found an experiment like the ones Panksepp and Huron did for other fields of interest than music. I hope someone with vision comes up with something!

Thanks for writing in this thread everyone, I enjoyed clicking all the links and reading the comments. I hope this post made some sense ;)

And help me out: Where does the dopamine kick in?

Greetings,
Gerben

PS. Longest chill (that I've recorded) about 67 seconds while listening to music. No matter how often I try to get it again on that same bit of music it never lasts that long now...
This is the bit of music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TUzaW0-K1k"

I've had as many as 4 chills in a row listening to Rachmaninov's 3rd pianoconcerto's opening 5 times in a row.

 

[rhody]

Gerben,

First welcome to PF, second, kudo's to a very well written and thoughtful post. I think it is cool that you found us and this thread.

Longest chill (that I've recorded) about 67 seconds while listening to music. No matter how often I try to get it again on that same bit of music it never lasts that long now...
This is the bit of music:

That last piece of music (never heard it or the musician before) gave me chills too, starting around 50 seconds or so, I didn't expect it either, however it did not last 67 seconds, it waxed and waned. The visual in the video contributed to it as well.

Any comment on my post https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3045269&postcount=224" where Dr Taylor says:

Dr. Taylor also speaks about the 90 seconds of emotions (90 seconds of anger/90 seconds of happiness – on this blog) and how after 90 seconds the brain’s message about an event is beginning to leave our systems and how we have a choice as to how we are going to react to any situation. It is within our power after the 90 second message.

I have never had a chill, that I timed anyway, lasting that long, but I have had repeating ones at around 10 minute intervals with different stimulus (usually music) and different emotions with each, you have to be paying close attention, who knows, maybe paying attention alters the emotion itself, I can't say for certain.

Rhody...

P.S. Someone break out the fish (for the slap) so we can initiate Gerben properly... (see thumbnail). Now, where is Fuzzyfelt ?

 

[Char. Limit]

Yes, I just got one, from the start of Serj Tankian's "Deserving".

 

[fuzzyfelt]

I'm not much of a scientist to be honest, the physics field is a bit new to me...

However I am very interested in this subject, so I decided to register for this!

A while back I first consciously experienced this feeling. I had felt it very often before, but never actually stood still by it's presence. This feeling came to me through music. But also through nature...

Now recently I've learned that people can experience the same thing when looking at art. Since I'm studying art and hoping to make art that can give me (and perhaps others) these chills, I've gained some interest on the subject.

I started with trying to find out what it was in music that gave me these chills. Later on I would find the research done by Panksepp and Huron, but not after making a list with music and chill-moments.

I opened the list with classical pieces that I had recently discovered and could listen to several times a day and still get the chills...

J.S. Bach -- BWV 783 2-part invention #12 -- Glenn Gould after 27 seconds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zc7Zk33ImNI"

J.S. Bach -- BWV 781 2-part invention #10 -- Glenn Gould after 24 seconds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32mqWa1TPeQ"

L. Beethoven Piano Concerto #5 in E flat major, Op.73, II at 1.41 and 5.25
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvaLDtf5JW8&feature=related"

S. Rachmaninov -- Pianoconcerto #3, I- Allegro Ma Non Tanto -- B.Glemser at 1.20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVFMRkE0250"

and more of these... so like the first post of the topic, I was thinking, maybe the gender has something to do with it? It's all classical so far...

Then I came to realize that I had these chills before I had gained this sudden interest in classical music.

Rolling Stones -- You can’t always get what you want at 4.24
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OagFIQMs1tw&feature=related"

The Rolling Stones, but also the Red Hot Chilipeppers, Jimi Hendrix, Kyteman and Nina Simone managed to find their way into the list.

At first I was thinking the complexity gave me the chills. Mainly because that was when I got the chills from nature experiences, when I tried to take in all the details and admire all the twisted shapes of branches and leaves and the clouds at the same time. The Bach inventions worked sort of the same way.

But, the list disagrees, not everything in it was all that complicated... what it did require however was attention. If I am just playing it in the background nothing happens. Crescendo's, decrescendos, more instruments, less instruments, high registers, low registers, they all appeared in several pieces of music on the list. There was no real help in trying to find a common overlap in music.

So in came the nature experiences that gave me the same kind of chill. Grand Canyon, Yosemite, some other big inspiring places, but also some small park in the neighbourhood. While big things seemed to make a bigger chance, they were not the only things that could give me chills. It also came with a sort of realization of how big this place is, and how much there is unexplored.

Now David Huron, with his theory of fears being neutralized or even turned into pleasure, he also spoke about other causes of frisson. (another word for these ' chills ' we are discribing)

He names (among others): music, nature, touch, a warm bath, a sudden flash of insight.

That last one is playing in my head at the moment. The theory is, that the insight comes suddenly and is somewhat scary at first, somewhat unexpected big brainstimulation I guess...

I guess you know the feeling (I do recognize it now, although I didn't at first link it with the feeling I get from music... it is the same.)

You are doing some maths or thinking on a problem very hard, and all of a sudden you know that you know the answer. It is not all there, clear in your head, but you know that you have solved it. This comes with a chill but you still have to work it out.

Can't the same be true for those chills one can find in art and nature? That the brain suddenly makes some sort of connection that you didn't expect and suddenly have this feeling: "Wow, fantastic" or maybe even "I understand it now" (while you can't exactly say what it is you are understanding...)

Or is it like Kandinsky thought, and with him many other artists, Plato and some other philosphers? People have a sense of harmony in their mind. Not many (if any) are able to show that harmony, but many of us can recognize it. Maybe this kind of sense goes up for musical harmonies (not so much harmonies but a sense for composition, rythm, melody, or what else there might be), color harmonies, shape harmonies, smell (think of the fresh smell of a morning in the forest) and sense harmonies (a certain temperature-shift? Or maybe a texture like quality you can touch, or being in the water..)

Anyways, I've been doing a lot of thinking on the subject and I haven't gotten anywhere yet. But oh well that's what a lot of us artists & philosophers do... For answers we've got you physics people...

I do think that this can be explained by delving deeper into neurology though. We just need to understand a little bit more about how the brain processes senses and visual images. And more importantly how that relates to chills. I haven't found an experiment like the ones Panksepp and Huron did for other fields of interest than music. I hope someone with vision comes up with something!

Thanks for writing in this thread everyone, I enjoyed clicking all the links and reading the comments. I hope this post made some sense ;)

And help me out: Where does the dopamine kick in?

Greetings,
Gerben

PS. Longest chill (that I've recorded) about 67 seconds while listening to music. No matter how often I try to get it again on that same bit of music it never lasts that long now...
This is the bit of music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TUzaW0-K1k"

I've had as many as 4 chills in a row listening to Rachmaninov's 3rd pianoconcerto's opening 5 times in a row.

Welcome, Gerben! and thanks for a great post!

Part of why I find this interesting is for the same reasons as you.
Wonderful choice of music and wonderful thoughts, thanks. I'm rethinking a lot about it.
I've been interested in the degree of complexity involved, too, and agree that although complexity seems very important, sometimes what seems to be simplicity works as well. I wonder if the seeming simplicity is actually more complex.

Thanks too, for the description of various responses. I have some questions about dopamine myself. I wonder if it might be helpful to move this thread to medical sciences, or maybe it is better as a more conversational thread.

Thanks Rhody and Char too for your responses.
btw, I have tried some quite good tequila, now, but the person selling it was just out of the really good stuff, so will have to try again, drats :)

 

[Borek]

Sorry to disagree with Lisab and Danger, but I really think I have felt chills on listening to a piece for the first time.

Happens for sure. In early eighties I was visiting a church somewhere in Hungary and someone was just testing organs before the concert. That was incredible, probably mostly because it was unexpected. I was stunned and "goosebumped". Interestingly, later that day I was at the concert in the same church, and while it was interesting, the effect was not that overwhelming.

Nothing works on me as good as intro to Money for nothing. Must be played loud. When the guitar starts, I am shaking

 

[fuzzyfelt]

I think I’ve felt the same. Nearby where my son plays sport sometimes I hear rehearsals escaping as I watch him. It is unexpected and chilling and also feels surreal.

Dire Straits are great!

 

[GerbenD]

Thanks for the warm welcome! (Yet slapping me with a fish? Probably some custom I'm not used to ... )

Rhody, you are right, timing chills isn't easy. I only figured out it was 67 seconds long because I stopped the music at the moment the chill left me. Later on I checked when the chill started (which is way easier to determine). (This was while riding home on my bicycle, so I guess that riding a bicycle doesn't take too much attention)

And Char, that brings me to a different discovery. Chills when music starts... now with Huron and Panksepp's theories, it is mostly about a change in music. The chill comes up when there is some sort of element of surprise. This can be the introduction of a new instrument, or a new melody, an increase in volume, or some other kind of change. In most of the cases listed, there is a buildup to the chill-point. When the music starts, there hasn't been any buildup. Yet as Char and Borek have stated (and I have experienced it myself aswell!), the start of a piece of music can also give this chill.

This might be of importance. First of all, it might have something to do with anticipation. The way music works with expectations being satisfied (or not). Some kind of reward system...
The idea would be that when you listen to a piece of music, the first notes would trigger your brain to come up with expectations. You know what will come and already get excited, maybe to the point of chill.

However, that wouldn't really fit with what Borek said, he'd never heard the organ music before. So how could the start of that music piece give him any expectations?

Now if music can give these chills from the start of a piece, that might suggest that it is not the build-up and change in music that makes the chills rise, but the notes themselves. But! When I listen to one of the pieces that I know will cause this feeling and I skip ahead to where the chill should come up, it doesn't happen.

So while in some cases it is necessary to have change in music to cause the chill, it seems to also be possible to experience these chills without a change in music (right from the start).

Now at the moment I think that even going from silence (or just background noise) to the start of the music is a change, one that may at first cause fear and then the calming reaction of the brain (contrastive valence was what Huron called it I believe) will turn into a pleasurable feeling.

All this further reinforces David Huron's theory on 'sudden' changes causing chills.

So to give us these chills, should music, art, nature, books, and others present a shock to chill us? And ofcourse have some sort of way to neutralize the shock. (although according to Huron, the simple realization of: it's nothing, you'll be fine... is enough )

Then again, just appearing might be enough. On the one hand it would be possible to prepare a kind of state of expectation in our minds so the change will have an impact. And on the other hand some change could contrast silence (or rest, or emptyness, or a neutral temperature) so that it will carry the same impact as a prepared change would have.

Hmm maybe I should put some more thought into this. And the fact that you can expect a chill, and still get it... Huron explains this by calling fear a primal defense system. We will always be surprised by change, just as we will feel pain. Experience will not change the first response (fear-reflex). But how come we don't experience these chills all the time then? There are so many occasions on which we experience sudden changes and aren't feeling any response... there must be something unique to everyone that causes them to react so intensely to just these few things. And while these chills are cause by different pieces of music, the warm bath experience is more universal.

Which brings me back to those philosophers who thought there might be some sense for harmonies in our brains. And the fact that many people experience chills from the same cause does stimulate me to keep looking for a sort of common factor. If such a common factor was found, it would be easier to deliberately cause these chills. For music, Panksepp and Hurons research pretty much worked in this way. Through the ages composers have stolen and copied to induce these chills. If that works for so many people, can't we do the same for visual experiences?

The more I think about it the less likely it seems to me that to find a common cause in music will result in finding links between music and other causes of chills. The only common cause seems to be change, surprise.

And then the dopamine, is it released as a result of the contrastive valence response? And how does it relate to a normal feel-good-feeling? I mean, I can feel pretty good, sitting on a couch, a blanket wrapped around me, listening to relaxing music. But not quite experience that chill. Is there more dopamine release? Or is it a different kind of substance? I should probably do some more reading!Fuzzyfelt, maybe we could make a different thread focusing not only on music but also on other chill-causing sensations in the medical sciences area.

This thread can then continue to function as a great place to collect chill-moments in music.

Erm and sorry for the messy post, I sort of think while I write. (lots of text between brackets too, sorry for that)

 

[fuzzyfelt]

Fuzzyfelt, maybe we could make a different thread focusing not only on music but also on other chill-causing sensations in the medical sciences area.

This thread can then continue to function as a great place to collect chill-moments in music.

Good idea. I'll leave it with you so it suits you.