New Orleans disaster predicted in 2001

[1123581321]

Governors fault or not, this racial card was left out on the table for the whole world to see, now we have to deal with it.

If over 50,000 white people had been left stranded in the heat without food or water in NO, it would not have taken 4 days to get them out. But that is a moot point. 50,000 white people would not have been left standed in NO.

How's that? What's your logic? Did you copy and paste that directly off your DNC talking points, or did you change the wording a little?

 

[1123581321]

http://www.chipublib.org/004chicago/timeline/greatfire.html

By the way, Chicago rebuilt the city, not the federal government. In fact I don't think the federal government did any thing to help Chicago out...

Seems to me that your contention that "If over 50,000 white people had been left stranded in the heat without food or water..." does not seem to have much merit.

Why are we talking about chicago now, did i miss something?

 

[Townsend]

Why are we talking about chicago now, did i miss something?

Were not...you don't seem to understand why I posted that...

 

[1123581321]

Were not...you don't seem to understand why I posted that...

but it has nothing to do with racism.

 

[Skyhunter]

Spokesperson for the FAA says that no such report was every filed with them. If a helicopter had been fired at, the pilots would have reported it.

Sourced challenge.

Unless it was a millitary one. They don't deal with the FAA.

Unsourced defense.

Pure speculation. If you don't know find out before you post.

 

[Townsend]

but it has nothing to do with racism.

Why isn't it racism? The government didn't do anything for those poor white people, it must have been racism. Clearly the government did not care about white people or it would have done more.

 

[Skyhunter]

That is the biggist load of bull**** i have ever heard. Come on, do you really think that? There is 8000 or so Natl.gurard in louisiana, its the governers fault for not ordering them in there.

Please, quit this race-card thing.

Fibonacci

Edward is right. Race is part of this issue. Anyone watching the news the last week knows that. You can't ignore an issue just because it might be uncomfortable.

I have been hearing reports from people down there that the Red Cross is not being allowed to give people food and water because the authorities on the ground don't want to encourage people to stay. There is 20% of New Orleans that is still intact. There are a lot of residents who are there in that 20% that is intact that want to help and are not being allowed.

Why would they want everyone to leave?

 

[Evo]

I have been hearing reports from people down there that the Red Cross is not being allowed to give people food and water because the authorities on the ground don't want to encourage people to stay. There is 20% of New Orleans that is still intact. There are a lot of residents who are there in that 20% that is intact that want to help and are not being allowed.

Why would they want everyone to leave?

Can the city in its current condition provide for the 20%? Food, water, electricity, gas, sanitation, emergency medical, etc...?

Perhaps it's the beginning of the end for New Orleans. Should the city be rebuiilt at this location? I'd say no. And I realize how devastating that is. And, I don't have an answer to the problem of moving the victims permanently. This is a serious issue with no easy answers.

 

[Skyhunter]

Why isn't it racism? The government didn't do anything for those poor white people, it must have been racism. Clearly the government did not care about white people or it would have done more.

As you so eloquently point out it is primarily about poverty. So it is a racial issue indirectly, since there are disproportionately more poor blacks than poor whites.

 

[Skyhunter]

Can the city in its current condition provide for the 20%? Food, water, electricity, gas, sanitation, emergency medical, etc...?

Perhaps it's the beginning of the end for New Orleans. Should the city be rebuiilt at this location? I'd say no. And I realize how devastating that is. And, I don't have an answer to the problem of moving the victims permanently. This is a serious issue with no easy answers.

This thought occurred to me also. I was wondering if anyone knew anything. I can speculate but would prefer not to.

 

[Townsend]

As you so eloquently point out it is primarily about poverty. So it is a racial issue indirectly, since there are disproportionately more poor blacks than poor whites.

Perhaps it is a class issue. I would agree that there are disproportionately more poor blacks than whites but I don't know the reason for that.

Perhaps there are a lot of racist people still in the world, I wouldn't disagree with you if you said so. Perhaps that is why there are so many poor black people. I couldn't say for sure but it would seem to be a reasonable theory.

The problem is that racism is not against the law. No matter how detrimental to the well being of society it may be, people have a right to hate. I have had the misfortune of knowing some racist people that were black, white, mexican and even asian.

I don't think anyone really knows the exact reason for there being so many poor blacks. It is a problem and if anything this disaster has made it very obvious. However to accuse the government of being racist is a slippery slope at best and blind hatred at worst.

 

[Art]

Unsourced defense.

Pure speculation. If you don't know find out before you post.

Yes you are right. Some people here do have a nasty habit of presenting their uninformed opinions as fact. Here's a sourced report which says NO aircraft were fired on.

Laura Brown, a Federal Aviation Administration spokeswoman in Washington, said she had no such report.

"We're controlling every single aircraft in that airspace and none of them reported being fired on," she said, adding that the FAA was in contact with the military as well as civilian aircraft.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=1087205

In an interview on TV tonight FEMA director (sic) Mike Brown is now trying to cover his gross incompetence and ineptitude by claiming the reason the rescue operation was such a debacle was due to the security situation in NO.

It appears this is developing as the common excuse to be used by the neocons to defend their 'compassionate conservative' administration's total f' up.

 

[Townsend]

It appears this is developing as the common excuse to be used by the neocons to defend their 'compassionate conservative' administration's total f' up.

Just so were all on the same page...this is only an opinion and not a fact, right?

snipers

-- The evacuation of patients from Charity Hospital was halted Thursday after the facility came under sniper fire twice.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/01/katrina.impact/

-- Violence disrupted relief efforts Thursday in New Orleans as authorities rescued desperate residents still trapped in the flooded city and tried to evacuate thousands of others living among corpses and human waste.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4828774

The situation in New Orleans continues to deteriorate, with widespread flooding and looting. The evacuation of thousands of people from the Superdome in the city was halted early Thursday when shots were fired at military helicopters. There are reports of armed carjackings

Hmmmm... What were you saying about those neocons again? According to at least some reports there was in fact some people shooting at military helicopters.

 

[Art]

Just so were all on the same page...this is only an opinion and not a fact, right?

Yes you got it! Well done Trowsers. As you mature you'll begin to understand the difference between opinions and facts instinctively without having to ask but in the meantime if you find yourself struggling just ask. I'll be glad to help

 

[Townsend]

Yes you got it! Well done Trowsers. As you mature you'll begin to understand the difference between opinions and facts instinctively without having to ask but in the meantime if you find yourself struggling just ask. I'll be glad to help

Ok thanks...now can you also show me how to take your foot out of your mouth?

 

[Skyhunter]

I don't think anyone really knows the exact reason for there being so many poor blacks. It is a problem and if anything this disaster has made it very obvious. However to accuse the government of being racist is a slippery slope at best and blind hatred at worst.

I agree, but he was accusing Bush, not the government.

 

[Art]

Hmmmm... What were you saying about those neocons again? According to at least some reports there was in fact some people shooting at military helicopters.

Painful as it is I'll try to explain it so that you will understand.

When there are reports on 'whatever' the way to investigate if they are true or not is to go to the authority in charge for corroboration. In this case the authority is the FAA. The FAA say they have not received any reports of aircraft being fired on either civil or military. Hence it would appear unless further information comes to light that the reports were simply rumours you know, like modern day legends.

 

[Skyhunter]

Yes you got it! Well done Trowsers. As you mature you'll begin to understand the difference between opinions and facts instinctively without having to ask but in the meantime if you find yourself struggling just ask. I'll be glad to help

No need to get personal there are reports from witnesses but the FAA says it has no reported incidents from pilots. I would advise we withhold judgement until we have more information.

 

[Art]

No need to get personal there are reports from witnesses but the FAA says it has no reported incidents from pilots. I would advise we withhold judgement until we have more information.

He asked me if part of what I wrote was opinion or fact so I answered him and offered help if he finds himself stuck in the future. What's personal about that? Unless of course he was being sarcastic in which case I suppose my reply might also be construed as sarcasm.

 

[Evo]

Lighten up Art, I know you can do it.

 

[Art]

Lighten up Art, I know you can do it.

And I thought I was adding a touch of brevity

 

[Townsend]

Painful as it is I'll try to explain it so that you will understand.

When there are reports on 'whatever' the way to investigate if they are true or not is to go to the authority in charge for corroboration. In this case the authority is the FAA. The FAA say they have not received any reports of aircraft being fired on either civil or military. Hence it would appear unless further information comes to light that the reports were simply rumours you know, like modern day legends.

You're right...I guess I didn't see it that way until you pointed it out.

Oh, and sorry for causing you so much pain.

 

[Art]

You're right...I guess I didn't see it that way until you pointed it out.

Oh, and sorry for causing you so much pain.

lol is that sarcasm by any chance?

 

[Astronuc]

Perhaps it's the beginning of the end for New Orleans. Should the city be rebuiilt at this location?

Well from a practical side, New Orleans is a significant port for grain and agricultural products being shipped from the central US. Barges from the Missouri, Mississippi, and Ohio systems bring grain to New Orleans to be loaded onto ships for export.

Sending those commodities to other ports would require rail and a concomittant increase in cost. In addition, storage and transfer infrastructure would have to be built, and those ports would have to deal with increased congestion.

Interstate I-10 carries a lot of truck traffic between Texas and the SE US, and New Orleans is a major railroad hub, with a lot of interchange among UP and KCS from the west with CSX and NS from the east.

Parts of New Orleans will have to be rebuilt. Much of the low lying areas probably should not be rebuilt. A straight-forward flood plane needs to be placed between the Mississippi and Lake Ponchatrain to get the water past the city. It will take a considerable study to determine the optimal configuration for rebuilding.

I don't think anyone really knows the exact reason for there being so many poor blacks.

Segregation and unequal access to education are the primary causes for so many black poor. Despite 'open-housing', blacks and whites (and other ethnic groups as well) still live in largely segregrated communities (neighborhoods), and there is often little close social interaction other than work or commercial transactions. I have seen it throughout the country, and it is not necessarily prevalent in the south. I have seen it in the so-called Liberal Northeast, central US, West Coast, Northwest - everywhere!

It would take some really profound leadership to begin to change these problems.

 

[Townsend]

lol is that sarcasm by any chance?

Not at all...

I just want to move on. I shouldn't have to avoid replying to one of your post just to avoid having a childish confrontation. If that means I need to admit to you that I am wrong and you're right then that is what I will do.

I just don't see the point in going back and forth like we have all over nothing.

 

[Art]

Not at all...

I just want to move on. I shouldn't have to avoid replying to one of your post just to avoid having a childish confrontation. If that means I need to admit to you that I am wrong and you're right then that is what I will do.

I just don't see the point in going back and forth like we have all over nothing.

Hey, you must have just read my last post on the 'hijacking of threads', thread.

I agree BTW and I promise to be polite with you in return.

 

[Townsend]

It would take some really profound leadership to begin to change these problems.

Are we sure that it can be done? I know that it is worth it to try for but what if it never works. I would have expected that the service would present an environment where racism would be eliminated. The ethnocentrism I saw was so profound that you could have made a documentary about it.

In South Dakota there are very few blacks in most areas and so there is really no way for people to be ethnocentric. The exception is Sioux Falls, South Dakota's largest city. Here there are enough black families for black people to form small clicks and stick together. And of course if black people are staying within their own circles then they are not mixing with white people. Of course they still have plenty of white friends but from what I observed they will stay within their own circles and avoid mixing if given an opportunity.

The obvious question is, "What are the white people doing to mix with the black people?" Quite a lot, it would seem, as from what I can tell a lot of the people around here are literally in love with the black culture. People will go out of their way to be friends with a group of black people only to be turned away. Of course I am sure there are some exceptions but I am explaining what I have observed.

So what can leadership do? Assuming we had great leadership, what kinds of things could be done to overcome these problems you pointed to?

 

[1123581321]

Edward is right. Race is part of this issue. Anyone watching the news the last week knows that. You can't ignore an issue just because it might be uncomfortable.

I have been hearing reports from people down there that the Red Cross is not being allowed to give people food and water because the authorities on the ground don't want to encourage people to stay. There is 20% of New Orleans that is still intact. There are a lot of residents who are there in that 20% that is intact that want to help and are not being allowed.

Why would they want everyone to leave?

They want everyone to leave so that they can fix the city without people getting in the way/ the city is not fit for human life.
And where did you hear that they didn't let the red cross give food? If that's the truth, then that is a dumb thing to do, but its not racist.

 

[Skyhunter]

Well from a practical side, New Orleans is a significant port for grain and agricultural products being shipped from the central US. Barges from the Missouri, Mississippi, and Ohio systems bring grain to New Orleans to be loaded onto ships for export.

Sending those commodities to other ports would require rail and a concomittant increase in cost. In addition, storage and transfer infrastructure would have to be built, and those ports would have to deal with increased congestion.

Interstate I-10 carries a lot of truck traffic between Texas and the SE US, and New Orleans is a major railroad hub, with a lot of interchange among UP and KCS from the west with CSX and NS from the east.

I have a friend buying a house, she doesn't have her loan yet but friday the interest rate for her loan dropped 1/2 a percent.

I haven't heard of any action by the Fed, so I wonder why?

Will the Fed start lowereing rates because of the disaster?

Parts of New Orleans will have to be rebuilt. Much of the low lying areas probably should not be rebuilt. A straight-forward flood plane needs to be placed between the Mississippi and Lake Ponchatrain to get the water past the city. It will take a considerable study to determine the optimal configuration for rebuilding.

When wood is saturated with water it swells, the swelling will loosen the metal fasteners, I would suggest that we do a huge salvage operation to try and use as much of the existing wood as possible. Wood and nail framed structures will be weakened, mold could be a problem, but treatable There is a structural screw made by GRK that is self drilling and self tapping, so it is possible to strip a building back to the frame and retrofit the frame to make it stronger than when originally built.

I love this kind of stuff, just might have to move to Norlans for a few years.

I still worry about what is going to happen to New Orleans as the oceans keep rising.

Segregation and unequal access to education are the primary causes for so many black poor. Despite 'open-housing', blacks and whites (and other ethnic groups as well) still live in largely segregrated communities (neighborhoods), and there is often little close social interaction other than work or commercial transactions. I have seen it throughout the country, and it is not necessarily prevalent in the south. I have seen it in the so-called Liberal Northeast, central US, West Coast, Northwest - everywhere!

It would take some really profound leadership to begin to change these problems.

There are pockets of integration, Berkeley comes to mind, but I have observed the same situation as you.

Now how do we get profound leadership?

That is another thread.

 

[Skyhunter]

In South Dakota there are very few blacks in most areas and so there is really no way for people to be ethnocentric. The exception is Sioux Falls, South Dakota's largest city. Here there are enough black families for black people to form small clicks and stick together. And of course if black people are staying within their own circles then they are not mixing with white people. Of course they still have plenty of white friends but from what I observed they will stay within their own circles and avoid mixing if given an opportunity.

When I was in SD racism was directed at the Native Americans.

 

[Skyhunter]

They want everyone to leave so that they can fix the city without people getting in the way/ the city is not fit for human life.
And where did you hear that they didn't let the red cross give food? If that's the truth, then that is a dumb thing to do, but its not racist.

I was listening to a radio call in show. actually I was listening to 2 from each end of the spectrum. They each had callers from the NO area.

I don't have any vetted information and I don't really trust what people are saying since the hosts were screening calls, at least I know one of the hosts was.

 

[BobG]

Well from a practical side, New Orleans is a significant port for grain and agricultural products being shipped from the central US. Barges from the Missouri, Mississippi, and Ohio systems bring grain to New Orleans to be loaded onto ships for export.

Sending those commodities to other ports would require rail and a concomittant increase in cost. In addition, storage and transfer infrastructure would have to be built, and those ports would have to deal with increased congestion.

Interstate I-10 carries a lot of truck traffic between Texas and the SE US, and New Orleans is a major railroad hub, with a lot of interchange among UP and KCS from the west with CSX and NS from the east.

Parts of New Orleans will have to be rebuilt. Much of the low lying areas probably should not be rebuilt. A straight-forward flood plane needs to be placed between the Mississippi and Lake Ponchatrain to get the water past the city. It will take a considerable study to determine the optimal configuration for rebuilding.

Astronuc's right about the significance of New Orleans to the entire midwest. So far, only the region's impact on fuel has been brought up, mainly because it's effect is felt so quickly. The loss of New Orleans for months (or years? ) will have a major effect on the economy in the Midwest, especially when compounded by higher fuel prices.

Some major port has to exist in the vicinity of New Orleans, even if it's significantly redesigned during the rebuilding.

Edit: I just don't think the impact of losing New Orleans has really sunk in yet. I understand why the levee system isn't the equal of the Netherlands. There's the feeling that they are intentionally located in a high risk area and reap a financial benefit by assuming that risk, and should pay for their own protection. In general, it's aggravating to see people intentionally build in a location where the flood risk is so high they can't get flood insurance, reap financial the benefits, and then expect the federal government to bail them out.

There's always exceptions, however. When such a large part of the country reaps benefits from New Orleans location, the country really can't afford not to protect it.

 

[BobG]

And that certainly falls on the shoulder's of the mayor and city administration. There was certainly and opportunity for local officials to do it themselves. All those buses and trucks, which are now underwater, should have been driven to higher ground - like near the Superdome. And this is certainly not a federal problem - it's local.
Fixing a major problem like a levee break in the middle of a hurricane is just not practical. Protective systems need to be designed so that they don't fail - a very simple and straightforward premise.
Hopefully that will change in the wake of this disaster.

Bush needs to find the right people. I think some of the people he nominated and Congress approved let him and the nation down. I know he gets the heat (fair or not), because he is the president and it his watch.

I think quite a few people at DHS/FEMA need to resign, and Bush needs to find people who will be proactive.

I seem to remember some flack a few months ago about DHS spending huge amounts of money on parties and awards ceremonies. At this point, I have to wonder on what has DHS been spending money. Certainly it was not for planning for disasters like Katrina - which is their job.

And quite a few Republican Congresspersons and Senators are asking - WT#?

Here's a Washington Post article about the Department of Homeland Defense and FEMA. You could almost consider the post-hurricane response a victory surprise for Bin Laden resulting from the 9/11 attack. We've become so obsessed with the possibility of terrorist attack that we're stealing nuts and bolts from other parts of our infrastructure.

I'd expect more snafus in the days ahead. The White House is already making it clear that the post-hurricane problems are the fault of city and state government, not the federal government. The state's already taking actions to protect itself from the federal government. The line being drawn between the federal government and the Louisiana/New Orleans government in the fight over assigning blame (another Washington Post article) isn't going to enhance federal/state cooperation.

 

[Townsend]

When I was in SD racism was directed at the Native Americans.

Well, yeah...that is true to some extent. But kind of beside the point. The point is that a majority of the black people I have observed seem to want to be ethnocentric. Even when there are white people who want nothing more than to have the opportunity to hang out with black people.

 

[BobG]

It would seem the title of this thread must be incorrect, CNN's interview with Walter Maestri before the storm struck was a product of the public's collective imagination, and the Times-Picayune article was post dated by years. FEMA's Michael Brown's interview with Larry King on Aug 31 was a complete fabrication.

In a news conference yesterday, Michael Chertoff claims the extent of the disaster "breathtaking in its surprise" and that it was "That 'perfect storm' of a combination of catastrophes exceeded the foresight of the planners, and maybe anybody's foresight."

What's Chertoff doing? Bucking for a Medal of Freedom?