New Orleans disaster predicted in 2001

[TRCSF]

Well, yeah...that is true to some extent. But kind of beside the point. The point is that a majority of the black people I have observed seem to want to be ethnocentric. Even when there are white people who want nothing more than to have the opportunity to hang out with black people.

Everytime a black family moves into a white neighborhood the property values drop as white people move out. White flight is still very much a problem.

 

[faust9]

It would seem the title of this thread must be incorrect, CNN's interview with Walter Maestri before the storm struck was a product of the public's collective imagination, and the Times-Picayune article was post dated by years. FEMA's Michael Brown's interview with Larry King on Aug 31 was a complete fabrication.

In a news conference yesterday, Michael Chertoff claims the extent of the disaster "breathtaking in its surprise" and that it was "That 'perfect storm' of a combination of catastrophes exceeded the foresight of the planners, and maybe anybody's foresight."

What's Chertoff doing? Bucking for a Medal of Freedom?

Good'ol news media trying to rewrite history to sell a few rags. Thank god Bush and his cohorts are around to keep setting the record straight.

 

[Townsend]

Everytime a black family moves into a white neighborhood the property values drop as white people move out. White flight is still very much a problem.

Any time a someone quantifies something with the the word every, they are almost always going to be wrong. There are always exceptions to an every and in fact I am sure there are times when a black family has moved into a white neighborhood and actually raised the property value.

Now for the sake of discussion I will just assume that you meant that "a lot of the time" instead of every time. With that I see that it is possible. I personally have never seen it in my lifetime but I still know that it has happened and it likely could still be happening in various parts of the US.

In responses to that I say:

Why would white people move out? Is it racist for a white family to move out if a hip hop rapper known for big parties and drug use want to move away? And why would the property value of an area be dependent on weather white people live in an area or not? Surely such a contention is racist in it self.

Besides all of that the single most important thing to realize is that you cannot, for any reason, take away a persons right to free association, period. You can take away a the right of a businesses right to free association only if it can be shown that it's business does not generate some kind of revenue for the people it does business with. In other words, any business that would give any particular group of people an unfair advantage over another group of people.

The point I wanted to make is that even if all the white people in the world suddenly fell in love with black culture, the problem would not necessarily be solved.

People seem to want to be ethnocentric if given the opportunity. In fact, it seems to me like people will go out of their way to keep from mixing too much.

 

[TRCSF]

Any time a someone quantifies something with the the word every, they are almost always going to be wrong. There are always exceptions to an every and in fact I am sure there are times when a black family has moved into a white neighborhood and actually raised the property value.

Now for the sake of discussion I will just assume that you meant that "a lot of the time" instead of every time. With that I see that it is possible. I personally have never seen it in my lifetime but I still know that it has happened and it likely could still be happening in various parts of the US.

In responses to that I say:

Why would white people move out? Is it racist for a white family to move out if a hip hop rapper known for big parties and drug use want to move away? And why would the property value of an area be dependent on weather white people live in an area or not? Surely such a contention is racist in it self.

Besides all of that the single most important thing to realize is that you cannot, for any reason, take away a persons right to free association, period. You can take away a the right of a businesses right to free association only if it can be shown that it's business does not generate some kind of revenue for the people it does business with. In other words, any business that would give any particular group of people an unfair advantage over another group of people.

The point I wanted to make is that even if all the white people in the world suddenly fell in love with black culture, the problem would not necessarily be solved.

People seem to want to be ethnocentric if given the opportunity. In fact, it seems to me like people will go out of their way to keep from mixing too much.

Is it racist for a white family to move out if there's a black rapper known for parties and drug us that moves in?

It is if they're Osbourne fans.

It's also racist to assume that black people are rappers known for big parties and drug use.

I'm not sure what you mean about the free association stuff. I've heard that sort of thing from Libertarians before, usually as a preface to argue that people and business should have a right to discriminate. But I don't think that's where you're going with it.

Anyway, if you think this still isn't a racist country, look at the response to this disaster compared to 9-11.

 

[Townsend]

I'm not sure what you mean about the free association stuff. I've heard that sort of thing from Libertarians before, usually as a preface to argue that people and business should have a right to discriminate. But I don't think that's where you're going with it.

I mean the constitution and the laws of this country make it so that people have the RIGHT to be racist. The exception is businesses, they do not have the right to discriminate under certain circumstances.

Anyway, if you think this still isn't a racist country, look at the response to this disaster compared to 9-11.

I know for a fact that there is racism in this country. I don't have any delusions. What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? What I am talking about is if we can fix it? Is there a way for a leader to fix it...

I have no idea what you're going on about. I seems like you think I am trying to support racism or something when I would never do such a thing. All I want to discuss is if we can make things better and how.

 

[BobG]

I have no idea what you're going on about. I seems like you think I am trying to support racism or something when I would never do such a thing. All I want to discuss is if we can make things better and how.

I have to admit I'm pretty confused about what you and TRCSF are talking about, as well. Did you two mean to start a thread on racism?

 

[Townsend]

I have to admit I'm pretty confused about what you and TRCSF are talking about, as well. Did you two mean to start a thread on racism?

Well the racism issue was brought up by someone else to beginning with...I just thought it was worth talking about since it seems to be a major issue people are bringing up about this disaster. However, I was more or less just talking about what could be done to fix it when TRCSF started going on about racisms causes which were in response to me trying to explain what I thought some of the causes were when I was talking about if we could fix racism.

What I got confused about is what point TRCSF is trying to make. It seems like he/she somehow got the impression that I don't think racism is a problem or something. Honestly I just don't understand him/her on this point.

 

[Astronuc]

In a news conference yesterday, Michael Chertoff claims the extent of the disaster "breathtaking in its surprise" and that it was "That 'perfect storm' of a combination of catastrophes exceeded the foresight of the planners, and maybe anybody's foresight."

What's Chertoff doing? Bucking for a Medal of Freedom?

I heard his press conference this morning from New Orleans. Absolutely pathetic!

It was a Category 4, almost 5, and in fact Katrina was the 4th most powerful hurricane to hit the US! Chertoff and Michael Brown (Director of FEMA) should have been sitting at NHC watching this thing by Saturday - where were they? Planes should have been ready to go then (or at least within 24 hrs) and they should have contacted the governor to coordinate National Guard. What is so hard about that? Apparently it is hard for Chertoff and Brown and their organizations.

The governor should have moved more swiftly for sure. And what happened to New Orleans emergency personnel - they are on the front lines already?!

 

[Astronuc]

I just don't think the impact of losing New Orleans has really sunk in yet. I understand why the levee system isn't the equal of the Netherlands. There's the feeling that they are intentionally located in a high risk area and reap a financial benefit by assuming that risk, and should pay for their own protection. In general, it's aggravating to see people intentionally build in a location where the flood risk is so high they can't get flood insurance, reap financial the benefits, and then expect the federal government to bail them out. All other ports would require rail shipment, so if New Orleans doesn't get back on it's feet, those barges will have to be off-loaded to rail and the cargo headed to other ports like Houston and the Atlantic coast. Except for Houston, I don't believe other ports have much for grain storage and transfer.

There's always exceptions, however. When such a large part of the country reaps benefits from New Orleans location, the country really can't afford not to protect it.

Certainly Cargill and others know the stark reality. They have hundreds of barges loaded with grain which should be on the way to ships for export.

The reason New Orleans got federal support (levees and flood control) was precisely because it is an important port.

I am sure the railroads (particularly UP, because they big supporters of Bush and many other Republicans) will be seeking relief or some type of subsidy.

 

[GarageTinker]

Both sides of the arguments, for and against Bush, have merit; however, I also think that arguments about the Bush (or any President's) administration need to be based on the whole picture/history/background of the administration, and not just the bits and pieces that are supportive of a particular argument. Hindsight is 20/20. That said, I think folks, both "Red" and "Blue" should concentrate on the emergency at hand until the emergency is over. I have no doubt that there will be plenty of time afterwards for fingerpointing / blaming / "my dog is better than your dog" issues.

 

[edward]

Both sides of the arguments, for and against Bush, have merit; however, I also think that arguments about the Bush (or any President's) administration need to be based on the whole picture/history/background of the administration, and not just the bits and pieces that are supportive of a particular argument.

The whole picture of this administration is dismal and getting worse. Bush needs to take the presidency out of the hands of others, including Cheney's.

Hindsight is 20/20

And a lot of us don't like what we have been seeing.

 

[TRCSF]

It would seem the title of this thread must be incorrect, CNN's interview with Walter Maestri before the storm struck was a product of the public's collective imagination, and the Times-Picayune article was post dated by years. FEMA's Michael Brown's interview with Larry King on Aug 31 was a complete fabrication.

In a news conference yesterday, Michael Chertoff claims the extent of the disaster "breathtaking in its surprise" and that it was "That 'perfect storm' of a combination of catastrophes exceeded the foresight of the planners, and maybe anybody's foresight."

What's Chertoff doing? Bucking for a Medal of Freedom?

Can you believe this guy is head of the Department of Homeland Security? Osama's laughing his ass off. He doesn't even have to do anything, these guys are killing more Americans than he could ever dream of.

 

[Art]

FEMA's Michael Brown's interview with Larry King on Aug 31 was a complete fabrication.

I'm not sure whether you are saying that what Brown said was a complete fabrication or that the interview itself never happened. If the latter here is the transcript from CNN's own site.

KING: Joining us for a few moments from Baton Rouge is Michael Brown, undersecretary of Homeland Security for Emergency Preparedness and Response. He's director of FEMA.

I must tell you, Michael, throughout this first half hour of LARRY KING LIVE, all of our correspondents, other people telling our correspondents that they're frustrated, they're angry, they're mad at the government, state, federal. They're not getting enough. And they're saying where is the help. So where is the help?

MICHAEL BROWN, FEMA: Larry, the help is right there. And it's going to be moving in very, very rapidly. I'm going to ask the country to be patient. I think Governor Barbour said it best that we cannot put these people in harm's way because we have additional casualties if we do. And I must say this storm is much, much bigger than anyone expected.

So that help is there. We have an agreement with Secretary Rumsfeld, the president has stepped in. We're going to have air lifting commodities in. We're going to have those caravans moving tonight. So tomorrow you're going to see that relief.

I also want to add, I understand the frustrations of those victims. It is miserable out here. It is hot. It is humid. They don't have water. Their lives have been totally upended. We're going to do absolutely everything within my power and the president's power to help these individuals.

KING: I quoted earlier from the "National Geographic" where the Federal Emergency Management Agency last year listed a hurricane coming to New Orleans as the most dire threat to the nation, equaling a big earthquake in California or a terrorist attack in New York. Did you share that view then? And if so, were you still prepared enough now?

BROWN: Larry, let me tell you something I did. When I became the director of FEMA a couple of years ago, I decided it was time we did some really serious catastrophic disaster planning. So, the president gave me money through our budget to do that. And we went around the country to figure out what's the best model we can do for a catastrophic disaster in this country? And we picked New Orleans, Louisiana, being struck dead on by a cat five hurricane.

This did not happen in this event. But that cat 4 hurricane caused the same kind of damage that we anticipated. So we planned for it two years ago. Last year, we exercised it. And unfortunately this year, we're implementing it.

KING: Thank you, Mike. Michael Brown, the head of FEMA.

gacve[PLAIN]http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0508/31/lkl.01.html[/URL]
Which is the interview with Walter Maestri you say is a figment of the public's imagination as he gave several?

 

[BobG]

I'm not sure whether you are saying that what Brown said was a complete fabrication or that the interview itself never happened. If the latter here is the transcript from CNN's own site. gacve[PLAIN]http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0508/31/lkl.01.html[/URL]
Which is the interview with Walter Maestri you say is a figment of the public's imagination as he gave several?

Perhaps I should have added a sarcastic smilie. Considering the prestige of a Medal of Freedom has been diminished by awarding it to the person responsible for Iraq pre-war intel claiming WMD in Iraq was "a slam dunk", the sarcasm seemed self evident. One way to earn Bush's undying gratitude is to jump out in front of the crowd and appear to be even less intelligent than Bush.

 

[Art]

Perhaps I should have added a sarcastic smilie. Considering the prestige of a Medal of Freedom has been diminished by awarding it to the person responsible for Iraq pre-war intel claiming WMD in Iraq was "a slam dunk", the sarcasm seemed self evident. One way to earn Bush's undying gratitude is to jump out in front of the crowd and appear to be even less intelligent than Bush.

Apologies BobG, it's just that some people on here post that type of thing and actually mean it.

 

[Astronuc]

One way to earn Bush's undying gratitude is to jump out in front of the crowd and appear to be even less intelligent than Bush.

And that is very difficult to achieve. The Michael Brown is doing his best.

 

[russ_watters]

It was a Category 4, almost 5, and in fact Katrina was the 4th most powerful hurricane to hit the US! Chertoff and Michael Brown (Director of FEMA) should have been sitting at NHC watching this thing by Saturday - where were they? Planes should have been ready to go then (or at least within 24 hrs) and they should have contacted the governor to coordinate National Guard. What is so hard about that? Apparently it is hard for Chertoff and Brown and their organizations.

The governor should have moved more swiftly for sure. And what happened to New Orleans emergency personnel - they are on the front lines already?!

Brown was in Baton Rouge when the storm hit and there were already FEMA people/supplies present before the storm hit, as well as national guard troops and coast guard aircraft.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/08/29/katrina.washington.ap/index.html

 

[Art]

Brown was in Baton Rouge when the storm hit and there were already FEMA people/supplies present before the storm hit, as well as national guard troops and coast guard aircraft.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/08/29/katrina.washington.ap/index.html

And yet the excuse many people were rolling out here for the lack of federal aid in the first days of the disaster was that they were not allowed to get involved...

 

[TRCSF]

Ah, Mike Brown. Good old Baghdad Brown. This was the guy fired from the International Arabian Horse Association for incompetence. This was the guy who on Sept. 1st said that he, FEMA director, had no idea that people were taking shelter in the Convention Center.

Bush: "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job."

Indeed. Way to go, Brownie.

 

[TRCSF]

And yet the excuse many people were rolling out here for the lack of federal aid in the first days of the disaster was that they were not allowed to get involved...

LOL. People get dizzy when they spin.

 

[TRCSF]

They dragged out Bush's parents to help defend him yesterday. They must be getting pretty nervous.

Highlights included Bush Sr. uttering something about how those people on the roofs sure weren't complaining.

And then there's Barbara. Who said that the storm "worked out well "for "those people." Implying since they were so poor and their homes were so bad, it's probably a good thing that their houses were destroyed.

And she said the really scary thing was that "those people" were probably planning on staying in Texas.

Compassionate Conservatism, ladies and gentlemen.

 

[Informal Logic]

Bush: "Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job."

There is a time for joking and a time for dignity and concern. This man is so clueless.

They dragged out Bush's parents to help defend him yesterday.

Does Dubya ever ask or receive advice from Bush Sr.? Because it seems this would be much better than always defending him after bungling something.

 

[TRCSF]

Does Dubya ever ask or receive advice from Bush Sr.? .

Actually, Bush Sr. is known for bungling hurricane relief as well.

 

[russ_watters]

And yet the excuse many people were rolling out here for the lack of federal aid in the first days of the disaster was that they were not allowed to get involved...

Your response has nothing at all to do with the fact I posted.

 

[TRCSF]

Your response has nothing at all to do with the fact I posted.

Actually, it completely undermines the whole argument.

 

[russ_watters]

I didn't post an argument, I posted a fact in response to a question! (where was Brown?)

 

[TRCSF]

I didn't post an argument, I posted a fact in response to a question! (where was Brown?)

Excuse me.

The argument that the Louisiana state government wasn't allowing FEMA in.

 

[Smurf]

You know what really pisses me off. When Bush and Martin were meeting around the time of the New Orleans crisis Martin offered to help, he didn't make a big statement but he asked bush if they needed help and Bush said 'no' (well, I don't know that, but he didn't say 'yes') and now the US media is going off about how Canada was quicker to offer help to sir lanka than to the katrina thing. It's stupid, Martin FINALLY does something I agree with and now the US doesn't believe it. You imbecils.

 

[TRCSF]

You know what really pisses me off. When Bush and Martin were meeting around the time of the New Orleans crisis Martin offered to help, he didn't make a big statement but he asked bush if they needed help and Bush said 'no' (well, I don't know that, but he didn't say 'yes') and now the US media is going off about how Canada was quicker to offer help to sir lanka than to the katrina thing. It's stupid, Martin FINALLY does something I agree with and now the US doesn't believe it. You imbecils.

During the storm Bush was still on vacation. It was a couple days later that he got back and started telling people no thanks.

Back during the big Kobe earthquake the Japanese government refused international aid. I thought that was terrible.

It's a shame it's happened here.

 

[Smurf]

well I don't know exactly when it was (i don't really care - it's just another hurricane and flood they happen all the time) but martin did offer!

 

[TRCSF]

well I don't know exactly when it was (i don't really care - it's just another hurricane and flood they happen all the time) but martin did offer!

Yes, he sure did. Last I heard (thursday or friday) the Canucks were pissed that their water purifiers were being held up at the boarder.

And the Canadian Navy is currently steaming towards the gulf.

Hell, even Sri Lanka has offered assistance.

 

[TRCSF]

Do you ever do research before posting? Or do you make a habit of automatically disbelieving everything someone says you don't like. I kind of thought I'd established a bit of credibility this last while by always backing up sources. Throw that out the window, goodbye common sense.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20050901.wpmpm0901/BNStory/National

Uh, are you talking to me? I'm saying that yes, Paul Martin did offer assistance. I'm saying that the Bush Administration is the reason that assistance has been delayed.

 

[Smurf]

Never mind then