Physics BS - is it even worth it?

[Physics_UG]

If I could do it over, I would have went to a community college for a couple years and then transfer to an in-state public school. Nobody cares where you get your degree. They care more about what you accomplish where you are at. For grad school you should aim for the best program you can though.

 

[Vanadium 50]

"Prestige" is way overrated.

Do you think that you could rank all the college graduates in some field from 1 to N, and you would find that all the students who went to the #1 ranked college are better than all the students in the #2 ranked college, who in turn are better than all the students in the #3 ranked college, and so on?

If you thought "that's silly", why would you think corporations would think any differently?

 

[WannabeNewton]

@Vanadium, I'm not saying its practical nor even effective but I'm just basing it off of what I see on physicsgre.com, this site, and journals like The Wall Street Journal and Forbes.

@Physics_UG, I think it's extreme to say people don't care at all where you get your degree. That is too much of a generalizing statement.

 

[Physics_UG]

@Vanadium, I'm not saying its practical nor even effective but I'm just basing it off of what I see on physicsgre.com, this site, and journals like The Wall Street Journal and Forbes.

@Physics_UG, I think it's extreme to say people don't care at all where you get your degree. That is too much of a generalizing statement.

Well, it's generally true. I went to a no-name school in Michigan and was able to get into some respectable PhD programs in my field with funding. In the rare case where everything is equal (including letters of recommendations and research experience and essay) they will probably choose the student who went to the more "prestigious" school, but such a scenario is unlikely.

Now, the advantage of going to a high ranking school as an undergrad is you get more research opportunities (I had to go to a neighboring state school to get research experience) and your peers might be a bit better, but you'd be surprised at the quality of students even at low ranking schools.

 

[Physics_UG]

Also, the ivies are known for grade inflation. You might even get a more rigorous education at a large state school than from an Ivy. I don't think Cornell is bad as the other Ivies (i.e. Harvard) though.

 

[ModusPwnd]

@Physics_UG, I think it's extreme to say people don't care at all where you get your degree. That is too much of a generalizing statement.

Employers in industry don't. They care about your marketable/usable skills, relevant research/publications and internships. If you can get those at a state school, your good. If you fail to get those at an expensive school, you are not good.

If you want to be a university professor then I believe that statistics show you are better off doing graduate school at a top rate university. For undergrad it's far less relevant.

 

[Physics_UG]

Employers in industry don't. They care about your marketable/usable skills, relevant research/publications and internships. If you can get those at a state school, your good. If you fail to get those at an expensive school, you are not good.

If you want to be a university professor then I believe that statistics show you are better off doing graduate school at a top rate university. For undergrad it's far less relevant.

Also, keep in mind that just because it's a state school doesn't mean it can't be considered top ranking. Consider UC Berkeley or UMich-AA for instance.

 

[WannabeNewton]

Employers in industry don't

Do you actually have a reference that supports the claim that absolutely no industry employer cares about the superficial prestige of a university? This is contrary to many things I have read across different mediums.

@Physics_UG, Berkeley and UMich are out of the question because they would cost me even more than Cornell, as I have already mentioned in the thread.

 

[ModusPwnd]

Is what you read about science and engineering? Or other professions like business and law?

In science and engineering you rest your laurels on specific achievements. Publications and skills. I don't know about other fields.

 

[WannabeNewton]

Is what you read about science and engineering? Or other professions like business and law?

In science and engineering you rest your laurels on specific achievements. Publications and skills. I don't know about other fields.

Finance and computer science related fields almost exclusively from what I've read. I don't disagree with what you said about pure sciences and pure engineering. Schools like Carnegie Mellon, UIUC, Purdue, UW Madison, RPI etc. certainly get tons of recruiters on campus for respectable internships / jobs but these universities are also highly ranked in engineering, regardless of overall prestige.

 

[Physics_UG]

Do you actually have a reference that supports the claim that absolutely no industry employer cares about the superficial prestige of a university? This is contrary to many things I have read across different mediums.

@Physics_UG, Berkeley and UMich are out of the question because they would cost me even more than Cornell, as I have already mentioned in the thread.

You missed my point. I was just saying that large state schools should not be considered inferior just because they are state schools.

How about you tell us what state you are from then? Maybe we can recommend a school in that state.

 

[WannabeNewton]

How about you tell us what state you are from then? Maybe we can recommend a school in that state.

This has already been covered extensively in the previous posts: I have noted that I am from NY and that the only viable option is Stony Brook as far as in-state schools go. I also never stated state schools were inferior, where did you even see me state that? I was just noting the mindsets of potential campus recruiters for various fields based on the different articles and forum posts I have read.

 

[ModusPwnd]

Schools like Carnegie Mellon, UIUC, Purdue, UW Madison, RPI etc. certainly get tons of recruiters on campus for respectable internships / jobs...

So does Oregon State University. It has little prestige among the US population. But for engineering it provides real marketable skills and internships. Graduates from there can and do go on to places like Intel, Motorola, etc.

What kind of metric is this rank you are looking at using? Public perception? Employment rate and income of graduates? Satisfaction of education value vs cost?

 

[Physics_UG]

This has already been covered extensively in the previous posts: I have noted that I am from NY and that the only viable option is Stony Brook as far as in-state schools go. I also never stated state schools were inferior, where did you even see me state that? I was just stating the mindsets of potential campus recruiters for various fields based on the different articles and forum posts I have read.

Then why don't you go to Stony Brook or any of the other SUNY schools? It will be much more cost effective than Cornell.

 

[WannabeNewton]

What kind of metric is this rank you are looking at using? Public perception? Employment rate and income of graduates? Satisfaction of education value vs cost?

Just look up as many engineering rankings as you can find for US universities. Many of the state schools/ various lesser known private schools that are popular recruiting grounds also happen to be consistently highly ranked engineering schools.

 

[WannabeNewton]

Then why don't you go to Stony Brook or any of the other SUNY schools? It will be much more cost effective than Cornell.

Again, the various pros and cons have been extensively discussed in the previous posts. At this point it is really just a matter of "sleeping on it". I have essentially three options I can go with, all of which have been detailed in said prior posts.

 

[Physics_UG]

I got shafted bad though. lol. I went to a no name private school that has outrageous tuition (it's up to about $900/cr over 131 credits) and no prestige. I was young and dumb, basically.

However, tons of respectable companies recruit from my university.

My "only" student loan debt is about 40K though. Not 120K.

 

[Physics_UG]

Again, the various pros and cons have been extensively discussed in the previous posts. At this point it is really just a matter of "sleeping on it". I have essentially three options I can go with, all of which have been detailed in said prior posts.

The choice seems obvious. Go to a public school in NY where you won't accrue 120K in student loan debt. This will ruin your life.

 

[Physics_UG]

I skimmed for the pros mentioned in this thread of going to Cornell and I didn't find much. Everyone seems to be telling you to just go to Stony Brook.

 

[Physics_UG]

As far as getting a job with only a physics BS...good luck competing with people with engineering degrees (and getting past the HR drones) for engineering positions.

One thing you could do (which I also did) is double major in engineering and physics. Problem is all of your electives will be physics classes where you could be taking more engineering classes with these electives which are what employers care about.

Sorry for the long string of posts, BTW.

 

[WannabeNewton]

Thank you for all the advice UG, it is much appreciated (everyone else as well, thanks). It is quite a big decision of course, to switch majors or switch universities, so it is not something I can make overnight. Thankfully (in a loose sense of the word), since I'm stuck at the same university for the next year regardless, I have a few months at the most to think it over. I'll also take a look into scholarships as some others have mentioned. Ideally I would like to do physics, since I really like the subject and would like to think I'm somewhat good at it, so if possible I will lean towards whatever will support that. If I do decide to transfer, it can only be for the last 2 years of undergrad so the money already spent (~60 - 65k) for the first two years will of course not be retrievable at that point, but that is out of my hands. Thank you again everyone.

 

[deluks917]

It is clear that students of top colleges do much better in graduate admissions (and in getting jobs). However the average student at a top college deserves to do much better then the average student at a regular school. They are (on average) smarter and harder working.

What is relevant is whether students who were accepted to top schools and went to a lower ranked school instead (or transfered) do worse. There is much harder to determine. And even if an effect is there estimating the magnitude is pretty tricky.

note: Even this has confonds lurking. The main reasona student would go to a lower ranked school is probably financial. So students who turn downsay MIT are probably worse off financially then students who accept. This is just one of the many potential conflicting variables.

 

[Physics_UG]

Thank you for all the advice UG, it is much appreciated (everyone else as well, thanks). It is quite a big decision of course, to switch majors or switch universities, so it is not something I can make overnight. Thankfully (in a loose sense of the word), since I'm stuck at the same university for the next year regardless, I have a few months at the most to think it over. I'll also take a look into scholarships as some others have mentioned. Ideally I would like to do physics, since I really like the subject and would like to think I'm somewhat good at it, so if possible I will lean towards whatever will support that. If I do decide to transfer, it can only be for the last 2 years of undergrad so the money already spent (~60 - 65k) for the first two years will of course not be retrievable t that point, but that is out of my hands. Thank you again everyone.

You are DEFINITELY good at physics. Nobody can deny that. What keeps you from transferring for your second year? Why do you have to wait until your 3rd year to transfer?

Either way, whether at Cornell or elsewhere, you will do fine I am sure. Cornell is a great school for physics. The problem is it just costs too much, IMO.

 

[WannabeNewton]

You are DEFINITELY good at physics. Nobody can deny that. What keeps you from transferring for your second year? Why do you have to wait until your 3rd year to transfer?

I am going to be entering my sophomore year once the summer is over so it is far too late to transfer out at this point even if I wanted to. Don't you just wish you were a little kid again, when life was so simple :D?

 

[Physics_UG]

It is clear that students of top colleges do much better in graduate admissions (and in getting jobs). However the average student at a top college deserves to do much better then the average student at a regular school. They are (on average) smarter and harder working.

What is relevant is whether students who were accepted to top schools and went to a lower ranked school instead (or transfered) do worse. There is much harder to determine. And even if an effect is there estimating the magnitude is pretty tricky.

note: Even this has confonds lurking. The main reasona student would go to a lower ranked school is probably financial. So students who turn downsay MIT are probably worse off financially then students who accept. This is just one of the many potential conflicting variables.

Of the physics majors in my class at my low ranking school, all of them that wanted to go to grad school got spots at top universities. You'd also be surprised at how good the students at low ranking universities are. It just depends on if you want to be a big fish in a small pond or a small fish in a big pond. Either way, 120K is too much debt regardless of where you go, IMO.

What you don't seem to understand is that Stony Brook is not a low ranking school, and it costs a lot less for an NY resident.

 

[dlgoff]

Hey WBN. I haven't read all the post but Physics_UG's suggestion sounds like a good option. I didn't double major but got my BS in Engineering Physics. And though I didn't make a ton of money, I sure had fun working on some really cool engineering related projects.

 

[WannabeNewton]

Hey WBN. I haven't read all the post but Physics_UG's suggestion sounds like a good option. I didn't double major but got my BS in Engineering Physics. And though I didn't make a ton of money, I sure had fun working on some really cool engineering related projects.

Thanks for the input dlg, tt's always nice to hear from you <3. I'll be sure to let you know what I decide on doing.

 

[MarneMath]

If all else fails, I got a job for you on my avocado farm. It'll take you until you're 80 to pay off the loans, but, you'll have avocados, so that's something.

 

[WannabeNewton]

If all else fails, I got a job for you on my avocado farm. It'll take you until you're 80 to pay off the loans, but, you'll have avocados, so that's something.

Are you gunna make me shoot beavers

 

[MarneMath]

No, mostly because I wouldn't trust you with a gun or a knife for that matter. We need someone in distribution who is passionate about avocados( at least that what my brother tells me.)

On a more related note, I'm sorry if this is already stated, but have you spoken to your parents about your thought process? Last time we spoke, you seemed confident that they would be happy to shoulder the burden if it helped you achieved your goal. I tossed a joke saying that I would tell my daughter no if she was in the same spot, but in reality, I would force* my wife back to being a stripper to help pay for it if that's what my daughter wanted :). *Although, I don't think I would have to force her.

 

[WannabeNewton]

On a more related note, I'm sorry if this is already stated, but have you spoken to your parents about your thought process? Last time we spoke, you seemed confident that they would be happy to shoulder the burden if it helped you achieved your goal. I tossed a joke saying that I would tell my daughter no if she was in the same spot, but in reality, I would force* my wife back to being a stripper to help pay for it if that's what my daughter wanted :).

Haha yeah I remember that conversation, 'twas a funny one at that. They are on board to pay for it, they say worst case scenario I shoulder half of the net tuition. The problem is I just feel too guilty to let them do that considering I have a brother 2 years away from entering (although the only light at the end of the tunnel is that since I will still be in college when he enters, his financial aid package for wherever will be significantly larger since my parents will then have to pay for two).

 

[MarneMath]

It's hard to explain this to someone who isn't a parent, but listen to your folks. If they are ok with your decision and want you to follow your dream, then follow it. While it's noble of you to think about them and try to ease their burden, there are other ways to help than leaving Cornell. You can get a part time job, or work full time during the summer. You can hedge your bet by trying to find internships and building relationships at non-STEM companies. You can hack an ATM. The possibilities are endless.

 

[WannabeNewton]

It's hard to explain this to someone who isn't a parent, but listen to your folks. If they are ok with your decision and want you to follow your dream, then follow it. While it's noble of you to think about them and try to ease their burden, there are other ways to help than leaving Cornell. You can get a part time job, or work full time during the summer. You can hedge your bet by trying to find internships and building relationships at non-STEM companies. You can hack an ATM. The possibilities are endless.

Thanks Marne. Looks like things won't be as bad as I thought they would be, I guess (or I'm just lying to myself). I'll have to sit down and think about what my future academic plans will be, and I'll definitely take what you said into consideration. You and the others who have contributed on this thread have given me a multitude of pros and cons for all the various choices and I really appreciate it. Thanks again.

 

[Jorriss]

You should really not make decisions under the assumption of not getting married or having kids. You're very young.

Statistically, there is an almost zero percent chance that you would not complete graduate school if you tried.

 

[ModusPwnd]

Statistically, there is an almost zero percent chance that you would not complete graduate school if you tried.

Where do you get those statistics?

According to this site the attrition rate in graduate school for physics & math is about 30%.
http://www.phdcompletion.org/index.asp

That is about what it was at my graduate school, though my adviser said it was more like 50%. Same at my undergrad. The professor I TA'ed for said the non-completion rate there was 50%. These were each PAC10 schools.Maybe your statistics are not counting people who get masters or choose to transfer to another program?