Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, 6 YTBN Shot, Killed In Tuscon AZ

[nismaratwork]

Mother Jones magazine has an in-depth interview with a fairly longtime friend of Loughner:
http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/jared-lee-loughner-friend-voicemail-phone-message

Points of interest:

1. Around 2008-09, Loughner decided to stop smoking pot, and being fairly regular with his interviewed friend, Bryce expresses surprise that Loughner failed an army drug test.

2. Intriguingly, Bryce says that as Loughner stopped using drugs, his weirdness seemed to intensify, rather than becoming reduced.

3. Bryce confirms that on several occasions, Loughner derided Giffords as "fake", i.e, some sort of personal obsession was building up against her, in Loughner's increasingly sick mind.

4. At 2.00 AM Saturday morning, Jared phoned Bryce, who chose not to pick up his phone.
Jared left the following message:
"Hey man, it's Jared. Me and you had good times. Peace out. Later."

Now, his friend's thoughts are still whirling around: "WHAT IF I had picked up the phone that night?"

Oh man, I feel for Bryce, but he must have given up on Loughner long ago. Still, what-ifs with people who are irrational, and insane... it just brings heartache. I know it's unavoidable, but it's a terrible consequence of this young man's actions, sane or not.

edit:

"In any man who dies there dies with him
his first snow and kiss and fight...
Not people die but worlds die in them."
(Yevgeny Aleksandrovich Yevtushenko)

 

[arildno]

Bryce Tierney's testimony gives us also a clue to why we should be careful about initiating a finger-pointing blame game in the public discourse.
(And, in this case, it was uniformly the liberal MSM that who were the primary culprits, however else it might be in other cases).

What is the relevance of this to a guy like Tierney?

Well, if somebody relatively close to Loughner starts believing that peripheral persons in Loughner's life like radio hosts and Sarah Palin must share some blame for his action, how much more guilty must they themselves be, precisely because they were Significant Others for Loughner?
(That is, as much Significant Other that could exist within Loughner's self-obsessed mind)

That is, a public blame game will have as an actually predictable consequence that innocent people around Loughner begin to feel a degree of private anguish and sense of guilt they otherwise would not have felt.

They deserve to be spared from such externally imposed additional sources of humiliation. They will have a hard enough time as it is, tackling their own sense of shame for "not having done enough" (an unavoidable feeling in such situations, however unjustified this type of self-recrimination is)

 

[WhoWee]

As I posted earlier, they will: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2011/01/11/2011-01-11_tucson_residents_to_fight_back_against_westboro_baptist_church_with_angel_wings.html

I understand, but these people sound as though they'll be just another act in circus. I'm suggesting this is an opportunity for the mainstream Baptist church to separate themselves from the nut jobs and put the issue to rest. If every time these nuts show up using the church's name, the real church members show up to counter and discredit - it should discourage the nuts.

Another thing the real church could do is request (petition the IRS) the nuts lose their tax status - on the grounds they are a "Baptist" church in name only. Force the nuts to defend their legitimacy - this too would discredit and distract them.

 

[nismaratwork]

I understand, but these people sound as though they'll be just another act in circus. I'm suggesting this is an opportunity for the mainstream Baptist church to separate themselves from the nut jobs and put the issue to rest. If every time these nuts show up using the church's name, the real church members show up to counter and discredit - it should discourage the nuts.

Another thing the real church could do is request (petition the IRS) the nuts lose their tax status - on the grounds they are a "Baptist" church in name only. Force the nuts to defend their legitimacy - this too would discredit and distract them.

That would be nice... in the meantime the AZ legislature passed a law against protesting funerals a day or two ago (fast). If Brewer signs it, and a judge waits in an injunction, this could be made a non-issue. It's semi-ethical, but utterly legal to operate in that fashion, and the only spectacle would be a brief period when the "church" members are arrested.

 

[WhoWee]

As one who disagrees with him on most things, let me be the first to say here the President turned in a top drawer speech tonight, the kind of speech that caused his star to rise so fast in the first place. He did what a President should do, and perhaps only a President can do, he rose above it all, hopefully bringing the country with him.

The speech was correct. However, I didn't care for the campaign-feel (53 interruptions?) and a large room with a sound stage. I would have preferred a solemn moment at the scene of the crime - this seemed too detached.

Good speech, good words - too crowd-responsive.

 

[nismaratwork]

Bryce Tierney's testimony gives us also a clue to why we should be careful about initiating a finger-pointing blame game in the public discourse.
(And, in this case, it was uniformly the liberal MSM that who were the primary culprits, however else it might be in other cases).

What is the relevance of this to a guy like Tierney?

Well, if somebody relatively close to Loughner starts believing that peripheral persons in Loughner's life like radio hosts and Sarah Palin must share some blame for his action, how much more guilty must they themselves be, precisely because they were Significant Others for Loughner?
(That is, as much Significant Other that could exist within Loughner's self-obsessed mind)

That is, a public blame game will have as an actually predictable consequence that innocent people around Loughner begin to feel a degree of private anguish and sense of guilt they otherwise would not have felt.

They deserve to be spared from such externally imposed additional sources of humiliation. They will have a hard enough time as it is, tackling their own sense of shame for "not having done enough" (an unavoidable feeling in such situations, however unjustified this type of self-recrimination is)

Hopefully enough people will take to heart the various calls to end the search for a reason in the mind of someone lacking reason, that such suffering can be minimized. As you say, it's not going to be abolished. Hopefully the community will provide some measure of grief counseling and long-term care, even for those who witnessed this. We don't need more people walking around, traumatized, while we focus on everything BUT them.

 

[WhoWee]

That would be nice... in the meantime the AZ legislature passed a law against protesting funerals a day or two ago (fast). If Brewer signs it, and a judge waits in an injunction, this could be made a non-issue. It's semi-ethical, but utterly legal to operate in that fashion, and the only spectacle would be a brief period when the "church" members are arrested.

Those things are fine, but in my mind a waste of resources. If average people with common sense start to get more involved (and just say HELL NO) this kind of behavior can be lessened.

 

[nismaratwork]

The speech was correct. However, I didn't care for the campaign-feel (53 interruptions?) and a large room with a sound stage. I would have preferred a solemn moment at the scene of the crime - this seemed too detached.

Good speech, good words - too crowd-responsive.

It's so hard to tell if it was a crowd looking for catharsis, if this was political on the part of the University, or just the fact that these people are a little tired of crying and wondering what to do.

Laughing in death's face can be a good thing.

 

[nismaratwork]

Those things are fine, but in my mind a waste of resources. If average people with common sense start to get more involved (and just say HELL NO) this kind of behavior can be lessened.

I agree, but they're NOT! How do you get people to care when they're so burned-out by decades of this endless divide:

religion, abortion, gay people, insert color here, war, conservative nuts, liberal nuts, libertarian nuts... and finally a just plain NUT.

It's exhausting just to watch... it must be traumatic to be in a state that's right on the eye-wall of this hurricane.

 

[WhoWee]

I agree, but they're NOT! How do you get people to care when they're so burned-out by decades of this endless divide:

religion, abortion, gay people, insert color here, war, conservative nuts, liberal nuts, libertarian nuts... and finally a just plain NUT.

It's exhausting just to watch... it must be traumatic to be in a state that's right on the eye-wall of this hurricane.

IMO - the protest of a funeral is just plain - incorrect - regardless of the identity of the deceased.

 

[nismaratwork]

IMO - the protest of a funeral is just plain - incorrect - regardless of the identity of the deceased.

I agree... hell, the outcries at SADDAM'S EXECUTION were internationally condemned.

edit: It's about what we want to be as a society, and not the nuts.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEiitkI2WH0

 

[SW VandeCarr]

It's about what we want to be as a society, and not the nuts.

I agree. I'm particularly concerned by the continuing attempts to politicize the motives of an obviously irrational and disturbed individual. Suppose JL said we was a (self-identified) tea party person? Does that confirm the raging speculations about Fox News and other right of center outlets?

I don't know what information he's getting in his jail cell, but if he wanted to stir things up, he could claim "Sara Palin sent me coded message instructing me to do what I did." Such a statement from someone like JL should get no more attention than if he said Jesus Christ sent him a coded message. But unfortunately, that would almost certainly not be the case. How can we give this sick individual such potential media power? It doesn't matter what he thinks (except in a medical sense) or who or what he self-identifies with.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Wow, according to CNN medical expert Sanjay Gupta, who is a neurosurgeon, the Chief of Neurosurgery at Tucson stated that Giffords seemed to open her eyes in response to the activities around her, when Obama visited. Giffords' husband thinks she knows Obama was there, but she doesn't understand why.

When Gupta questioned him about the word "miracle" being tossed around, he smiled and said that her response has been miraculous. Her eyes are starting to track properly, she responds definitively to questions and even gave a thumb's up.

I kept thinking how strange it must be. One minute you're standing at a Safeway, and the next thing you know, you're in a hospital bed with Nancy Pelosi looking at you [Pelosi was there when she first opened her eyes. Obama had just left].

 

[Evo]

Wow, according to CNN medical expert Sanjay Gupta, who is a neurosurgeon, the Chief of Neurosurgery at Tucson stated that Giffords seemed to open her eyes in response to the activities around her, when Obama visited. Gifford's husband thinks she knows Obama was there, but she doesn't understand why.

When Gupta questioned him about the word "miracle" being tossed around, he smiled and said that her response has been miraculous. Her eyes are starting to track properly, she responds definitively to questions, and even gave a thumb's up.

I saw a documentary on a teenager that had one hemishpere of his brain completely blown off by a gun, and he recovered, his brain rewired itself. One side of his brain is now carrying out the functions of both sides and one side of the brain is no longer even there. You can probably find it by googling it.

So this isn't that surprising. She was lucky. I've seen a lot of shows on Discovery Health on this. A week ago they had a guy that had a golf club that went completely through both sides of the guy's brain and he was still talking. A golf club! Talk about trauma. I watched as they cut off the handle and club to leave the rod while they tried to figure out how to remove it.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I saw a documentary on a teenager that had one hemishpere of his brain completely blown off by a gun, and he recovered, his brain rewired itself. One side of his brain is now carrying out the functions of both sides and one side of the brain is no longer even there. You can probably find it by googling it.

So this isn't that surprising. She was lucky. I've seen a lot of shows on Discovery Health on this. A week ago they had a guy that had a golf club that went completely through both sides of the guy's brain and he was still talking. A golf club! Talk about trauma. I watched as they cut off the handle and club to leave the rod while they tried to figure out how to remove it.

It is surprising according to the experts treating her. For starters, there is only a 5% chance of survival when shot in the head; nevermind cognitive functions after just a few days.

As Gupta pointed out, people like this don't normally use the word "miracle". Without invoking any religious meaning here, at the least she seems to be beating some very long odds.

 

[Evo]

It is surprising according to the experts treating her. For starters, there is only a 5% chance of survival when shot in the head; nevermind cognitive functions after just a few days.

As Gupta pointed out, people like this don't normally use the word "miracle". Without invoking any religious meaning here, at the least she seems to be beating some very long odds.

I doubt he meant a "miracle" as in supernatural.

 

[WhoWee]

I kept thinking how strange it must be. One minute you're standing at a Safeway, and the next thing you know, you're in a hospital bed with Nancy Pelosi looking at you [Pelosi was there when she first opened her eyes. Obama had just left].

Nightmare.

 

[nismaratwork]

I agree. I'm particularly concerned by the continuing attempts to politicize the motives of an obviously irrational and disturbed individual. Suppose JL said we was a (self-identified) tea party person? Does that confirm the raging speculations about Fox News and other right of center outlets?

Yeah... I'll freely admit that Palin is someone who can be annoying, and others who are more... intelligent... get under my skin. I can't just use this as an excuse to slam them for the hell of it though. If Americans really WANT a new product, they may get it, even from Fox News. You can represent an ideology without using hysteria, and MSNBC... they're just so damned irresponsible!

I don't know what information he's getting in his jail cell

Obviously I have no special knowledge, but if the FBI follows their procedure then the only contact he has with the outside world is his lawyer.

but if he wanted to stir things up, he could claim "Sara Palin sent me coded message instructing me to do what I did." Such a statement from someone like JL should get no more attention than if he said Jesus Christ sent him a coded message. But unfortunately, that would almost certainly not be the case. How can we give this sick individual such potential media power? It doesn't matter what he thinks (except in a medical sense) or who or what he self-identifies with.

I doubt that he thinks very much of Sarah Palin, but who knows. I would guess that someone so obsessed with words wouldn't be partial to her, and he doesn't seem to have an ideology... just madness. I can only hope that people remember Hinckley and Berkowitz at times like this...

 

[Proton Soup]

I understand, but these people sound as though they'll be just another act in circus. I'm suggesting this is an opportunity for the mainstream Baptist church to separate themselves from the nut jobs and put the issue to rest. If every time these nuts show up using the church's name, the real church members show up to counter and discredit - it should discourage the nuts.

Another thing the real church could do is request (petition the IRS) the nuts lose their tax status - on the grounds they are a "Baptist" church in name only. Force the nuts to defend their legitimacy - this too would discredit and distract them.

doesn't matter if they're "baptist" or not. they could be the Church of Mephistopheles and retain their tax status.

 

[nismaratwork]

Nightmare.

Literally a nightmare!... unreal, detached, distant, inescapable... still afraid, and FLOOOOODED with adrenaline like no other time. I haven't been in that exact situation, but I've been where bullets were moving too quickly for comfort, and it's no fun at all. The best part is thinking you're settled down, only to realize you're just letting the shock fade: then you realize that; damn... that could have been it.

Or you're hit, or dead. I don't know what repeated exposure to serious gunfire is, but I imagine that you adapt or snap...

Really... those people, reasonable or not, must feel like there isn't much that's safe right now, or certain. I hope they find solace however they can.

 

[nismaratwork]

doesn't matter if they're "baptist" or not. they could be the Church of Mephistopheles and retain their tax status.

Cool, but they should probably advertise as such or the IRS gets all antsy.

 

[nismaratwork]

Wow, according to CNN medical expert Sanjay Gupta, who is a neurosurgeon, the Chief of Neurosurgery at Tucson stated that Giffords seemed to open her eyes in response to the activities around her, when Obama visited. Giffords' husband thinks she knows Obama was there, but she doesn't understand why.

When Gupta questioned him about the word "miracle" being tossed around, he smiled and said that her response has been miraculous. Her eyes are starting to track properly, she responds definitively to questions and even gave a thumb's up.

I kept thinking how strange it must be. One minute you're standing at a Safeway, and the next thing you know, you're in a hospital bed with Nancy Pelosi looking at you [Pelosi was there when she first opened her eyes. Obama had just left].

Evo's example involves youth, which is a HUGE factor: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemispherectomy

It's a factor here too for this woman, but really a combination of immense luck, incredible first aid, and the presence of a surgeon experienced with penetrating skull injuries of this type. Beyond that, she's climbing the GCS like a monkey on a ladder! I hope Loughner knows that the one person he really wanted dead, that he shot point blank int he head... is alive. His legacy will be others, but especially he'll be the guy who murdered, "that little girl".

 

[Proton Soup]

Cool, but they should probably advertise as such or the IRS gets all antsy.

no, they don't. it's not their business what deity or demon people serve.

 

[WhoWee]

no, they don't. it's not their business what deity or demon people serve.

Not yet anyway - ever seen the movie with Alex Baldwin/Nicole Kidman (he's a doctor and says he's God)? (sorry)

 

[nismaratwork]

no, they don't. it's not their business what deity or demon people serve.

No, but if you're not following your own tenants so that the IRS determines you're not really the religion you claim on your tax forms... yeah... you have to worry.

 

[nismaratwork]

Not yet anyway - ever seen the movie with Alex Baldwin/Nicole Kidman (he's a doctor and says he's God)? (sorry)

What's the difference between god, and a surgeon?

God knows he isn't a surgeon.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

you and Ivan are the legendary pair chasing each other for eternity... I'd be crushed if that was shaken somehow.

Hey, don't bring me into this. Russ still thinks I'm a closet liberal with ulterior motives. I'm usually just deflecting fire.

 

[MathAmateur]

The judge who was killed was a good friend of my neighbor's. Their 11 year old was crying this last Sunday when my daughter (also 11) visited her. I just found out today that a colleague was shot and is just surviving at the University Medical Center. This all has hit our community hard.

On the positive side, President Obama visited yesterday and I got to hear him speak. The energy in the McKale Center was amazing and very healing.

I also continue to heal. My work provided a free counselor with experience in violent trauma and the President of our company wrote me a very kind note and the support of my colleagues have been just wonderful. But the image of nine year old Christina Green bleeding on the ground haunts me. I don't remember any of the other carnage which must have been around around her. Just Christina and the two people doing CPR trying to squeeze the life back into her. It is an image that will haunt me, I suppose, for a long time to come.

 

[Evo]

I also continue to heal. My work provided a free counselor with experience in violent trauma and the President of our company wrote me a very kind note and the support of my colleagues have been just wonderful. But the image of nine year old Christina Green bleeding on the ground haunts me. I don't remember any of the other carnage which must have been around around her. Just Christina and the two people doing CPR trying to squeeze the life back into her. It is an image that will haunt me, I suppose, for a long time to come.

So you were at the Safeway next to Gifford when it happened? Another member was there when it happened but only heard the shots, he wasn't outside next to her. That must have been frightening for you when he started shooting.

 

[Lacy33]

May we hear only good things from now on. Thank you for taking the time to write to us.

 

[MathAmateur]

So you were at the Safeway next to Gifford when it happened? Another member was there when it happened but only heard the shots, he wasn't outside next to her. That must have been frightening for you when he started shooting.

I was that other member. I ran outside to try to help after the shooting. Not that I did any good. It was too shocking.

 

[lisab]

The judge who was killed was a good friend of my neighbor's. Their 11 year old was crying this last Sunday when my daughter (also 11) visited her. I just found out today that a colleague was shot and is just surviving at the University Medical Center. This all has hit our community hard.

On the positive side, President Obama visited yesterday and I got to hear him speak. The energy in the McKale Center was amazing and very healing.

I also continue to heal. My work provided a free counselor with experience in violent trauma and the President of our company wrote me a very kind note and the support of my colleagues have been just wonderful. But the image of nine year old Christina Green bleeding on the ground haunts me. I don't remember any of the other carnage which must have been around around her. Just Christina and the two people doing CPR trying to squeeze the life back into her. It is an image that will haunt me, I suppose, for a long time to come.

Good to hear from you...wow. My thoughts are with you. I'm glad you're seeing a counselor, what you went through could easily become PTSD. Please take care of yourself!

 

[Evo]

I was that other member. I ran outside to try to help after the shooting. Not that I did any good. It was too shocking.

Oh, you are!

I know what you mean, my best friend and I witnessed a murder. We and one man were outside on opposite sides of the road when I heard what I thought was a car backfiring. Then the guy started stumbling and we thought he was really drunk, so we crossed the street and he had fallen down, we started to walk by him when we noticed the pool of blood forming around him. Then a couple walked out of a doorway and the woman started screaming. So I know how surreal it is.

Witnessing a mass murder had to be horrific.

 

[MathAmateur]

Oh, you are!

I know what you mean, my best friend and I witnessed a murder. We and one man were outside on opposite sides of the road when I heard what I thought was a car backfiring. Then the guy started stumbling and we thought he was really drunk, so we crossed the street and he had fallen down, we started to walk by him when we noticed the pool of blood forming around him. Then a couple walked out of a doorway and the woman started screaming. So I know how surreal it is.

Witnessing a mass murder had to be horrific.

Then you understand. It is like a fog.