Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, 6 YTBN Shot, Killed In Tuscon AZ

[nismaratwork]

Archery targets instead of cross-hairs, huh? Does that mean they were advocating the use of bows and arrows?

Isn't it about time for the silliness to end?

Yes, you get the last word, brilliant.

Back to the topic at hand, Giffords has had successful surgery to remove bone fragments from her eye. This is very good news, as they felt secure enough to operate on something less than live-saving.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/17/arizona.shooting/index.html?hpt=T1

NEW: Giffords could be discharged in "days to weeks"
NEW: There are indications she recognizes her husband
NEW: The other two victims still hospitalized are doing well

 

[Evo]

and the shooter had no contact with Kelly.

Actually, it's quite likely that the shooter saw Kelly's ads. It's possible those ads prompted him to buy the gun and plan the whole thing. We don't know.

 

[nismaratwork]

Actually, it's quite likely that the shooter saw Kelly's ads. It's possible those ads prompted him to buy the gun and plan the whole thing. We don't know.

True; if he could have done this for demented reasons, he could have done them for that unless I'm right and he's Schizophrenic: DT... I'd expect to have heard or read more about his plan; he'd be in no mental state to keep secrets, as we've seen.

 

[Proton Soup]

Do we REALLY think it's a good twist that people are conflating the nearly hysterical rhetoric of a survivor of a shooting, and the shooter. The fact that people on the right and left want to blame external forces is just another way of saying, "we have no responsibility for ignoring problems like Loughner, and when this story goes away, we'll go back to that." Better and easier to live believing he's a one-off copy... right?

yup, the torch-wielding mob is all ready to send Loughner on a dirt nap. mental illness is just a character flaw, after all. maybe if he'd gone to church, this wouldn't have happened.

 

[nismaratwork]

yup, the torch-wielding mob is all ready to send Loughner on a dirt nap. mental illness is just a character flaw, after all. maybe if he'd gone to church, this wouldn't have happened.

I'd say that's both factually accurate, and very perceptive. Sad too, but you didn't make the world, so I guess asking you to fix it would be unreasonable... right?

 

[WhoWee]

No she didn't. The Democratic leadership council color-coded states by popular vote, including putting archery targets over states that the GOP had taken by single-digits. They were pointing out to their membership and donors where gains could be made with extra investment in money and manpower.

Unlike Palin, they didn't put cross-hairs on candidates' districts, nor name anybody. The "both sides do it" argument is pretty thin. This thread is about Giffords' shooting and her (hopefully!) recovery, but I couldn't let that comment stand without pointing out the obvious qualitative differences between the graphics.

http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=253055&kaid=127&subid=171

Thank you turbo for pointing out the differences - can we now move forward?

 

[WhoWee]

Actually, it's quite likely that the shooter saw Kelly's ads. It's possible those ads prompted him to buy the gun and plan the whole thing. We don't know.

I'm not aware of him attending one of Kelly'e events - he may have watched the 9/11 conspiracy films and decided to kill all Government officials - we really don't know.

 

[nismaratwork]

I'm not aware of him attending one of Kelly'e events - he may have watched the 9/11 conspiracy films and decided to kill all Government officials - we really don't know.

I think that's exactly Evo's point.

 

[Proton Soup]

emphasis mine


Oh man, talk about scathing words. Touché!

well, i suppose the death threat made the camera-as-weapon part a wee bit more ominous.

 

[Evo]

I'm not aware of him attending one of Kelly'e events - he may have watched the 9/11 conspiracy films and decided to kill all Government officials - we really don't know.

He didn't have to attend anything, he might have, he could have watched him on tv and read his ads. Why do you find that hard to believe? Do you have a list of every move he made last year, every tv commercial he watched, news reports, etc? No? Kelly was campaining where the shooter lived. The shooter would have to have lived in a hole to not have seen and heard him.

 

[turbo]

Actually, it's quite likely that the shooter saw Kelly's ads. It's possible those ads prompted him to buy the gun and plan the whole thing. We don't know.

We can't speak to his motivation, but it would have been virtually impossible for him to have missed Kelly's ads on radio and TV in such a heated campaign.

Maine is a small-market, but we get saturated with political ads during major (congressional/presidential) campaigns. You'd have to live in a cave to miss them.

 

[WhoWee]

We can't speak to his motivation, but it would have been virtually impossible for him to have missed Kelly's ads on radio and TV in such a heated campaign.

Why is that - how often did he listen to the radio? How often did he watch TV? Did he listen/watch the channels Kelly advertised on during the times of the ads? Please support.

 

[WhoWee]

He didn't have to attend anything, he might have, he could have watched him on tv and read his ads. Why do you find that hard to believe? Do you have a list of every move he made last year, every tv commercial he watched, news reports, etc? No? Kelly was campaining where the shooter lived. The shooter would have to have lived in a hole to not have seen and heard him.

This is what I posted "If not, why not - Rep. Gifford wasn't shot with an M-16 and the shooter had no contact with Kelly."

When I said "contact" - I meant personal contact. We know the shooter had a verbal exchange and a written exchange with Rep. Giffords. I am not aware of any direct connection to Kelly?

 

[Proton Soup]

maybe he was influenced by Giffords' ads. he couldn't have missed them.

 

[nismaratwork]

Wow... so... there's actual news on condition of 2 people mentioned in the OP, but we're back to which political candidate "inspired" the psychotic?!

 

[Proton Soup]

Wow... so... there's actual news on condition of 2 people mentioned in the OP, but we're back to which political candidate "inspired" the psychotic?!

yup.

 

[Evo]

This is what I posted "If not, why not - Rep. Gifford wasn't shot with an M-16 and the shooter had no contact with Kelly."

When I said "contact" - I meant personal contact. We know the shooter had a verbal exchange and a written exchange with Rep. Giffords. I am not aware of any direct connection to Kelly?

Kelly was Gifford's opponent. Loughner could very well have supported Kelly against Giffords, Giffords won. To say that Loughner was not aware of Kelly is mind boggling, of course he had to know.

 

[mheslep]

The "both sides do it" argument is pretty thin.

No, your contention to the contrary is pretty thin.
http://washingtonindependent.com/100315/manchin-shoots-down-cap-and-trade

Gov. Joe Manchin (D) in his suddenly tight Senate race in West Virginia, ... It also represents a rare twofer, in which Manchin both touts his National Rifle Association endorsement and literally shoots a piece of environmental legislation in the same pull of a trigger:

 

[WhoWee]

Kelly was Gifford's opponent. Loughner could very well have supported Kelly against Giffords, Giffords won. To say that Loughner was not aware of Kelly is mind boggling, of course he had to know.

I watched a reporter walk down the street in New York last week asking people to pick the Vice President from a list of 4 names (including Biden) - none picked Biden - but Hillary fared well. I don't know what this distrurbed person was aware of or not? All I said was that he didn't have contact - meaning personal contact.

 

[Evo]

All I said was that he didn't have contact - meaning personal contact.

You can't say that, you don't know that.

I also don't kow why you keep bringing that up either, why would he need to have had personal contact with Kelly?

 

[WhoWee]

You can't say that, you don't know that.

I also don't kow why you keep bringing that up either, why would he need to have had personal contact with Kelly?

I'm really not trying to be difficult Evo. The ad invited people to come down and shoot M-16's with Kelly. As far as I know - the shooter didn't participate. Unless someone has found a direct connection that he followed Kelley - Kelley is irrelevant to the conversation.

On the other hand, the shooter did have personal contact with his victim - spoken and written. In his sick mind - her response in Spanish at an earlier rally (which still doesn't make sense - unless she wasn't even responding to him - he just thought she was?) might have been his breaking point?

 

[turbo]

You can't say that, you don't know that.

I also don't kow why you keep bringing that up either, why would he need to have had personal contact with Kelly?

You're right. He wouldn't have to have had personal contact with Kelly. Deranged of not, Loughner is politically-aware. He went to a previous Giffords meet-and-greet and he saved the form-letter and the envelope that her staff sent him, and wrote comments on them. The notion that he was blissfully unaware of the Giffords vs Kelley race is laughable, at best.

Perhaps some day we will get some clarification on his motivation, but it does not serve us well to treat him like a random nut that cracked. He planned, and he bragged about it in writing. Now, why?

 

[turbo]

BTW, Giffords' husband told hospital staff that she smiled at him and rubbed his back. Good sign.

 

[nismaratwork]

No... Loughner was NOT politically aware... you can't be both psychotic and that coherent. Politically aware implies that somehow his politics and assessment of the politics of others reflected reality; from what I can tell that's not the case.

It sucks... I know, but if this young man is as crazy as he seems... there's no one to blame here. This is just what happens when you have .3%-.7% suffering from Schizophrenia, and 300 million people. SOMEONE is going to slip through EVERY crack... it's just sheer odds.

The state of our mental health system just means that tragedies are more frequent, although they're often more quiet and personal.

 

[Evo]

I'm really not trying to be difficult Evo. The ad invited people to come down and shoot M-16's with Kelly. As far as I know - the shooter didn't participate. Unless someone has found a direct connection that he followed Kelley - Kelley is irrelevant to the conversation.

On the other hand, the shooter did have personal contact with his victim - spoken and written. In his sick mind - her response in Spanish at an earlier rally (which still doesn't make sense - unless she wasn't even responding to him - he just thought she was?) might have been his breaking point?

She didn't respond in Spanish according to his friend that was there. I don't know who started that Spanish rumour, I know it got printed somewhere but was corrected. I posted the friend's version earlier in this thread in an article.

Just seeing Kelly's gun ads opposing Giffords could be all he needed to plant the idea of shooting her. Kelly could be extremeley relevant YOU DON'T KNOW. Unless you can provide an article that says Loughner says he didn't know of kelly, your posts amount to misinformation, so stop. You can say you don't think he did, I think he did since Kelly was all over the news where Loughner lived. You cannot say that he didn't, that's against the rules to state personal opinion as fact.

 

[Evo]

You're right. He wouldn't have to have had personal contact with Kelly. Deranged of not, Loughner is politically-aware. He went to a previous Giffords meet-and-greet and he saved the form-letter and the envelope that her staff sent him, and wrote comments on them. The notion that he was blissfully unaware of the Giffords vs Kelley race is laughable, at best.

Perhaps some day we will get some clarification on his motivation, but it does not serve us well to treat him like a random nut that cracked. He planned, and he bragged about it in writing. Now, why?

Exactly.

 

[nismaratwork]

BTW, Giffords' husband told hospital staff that she smiled at him and rubbed his back. Good sign.

If the report is accurate, that would be amazing, but the doctors seemed a bit uncertain. The insertion of a feeding tube and the lack of attempts at vocalization are not good signs unfortunately. Then again, this is still so absurdly early in her recovery.

 

[nismaratwork]

...but he is a random nut that cracked. There are real dangers posed by this kind of political rhetoric, not the least that kids might believe this kind of language is appropriate. Those dangers however, have nothing to do with Loughner.

Much like smoking tobacco, there are a TON of great reasons to not do it, but the trick is to focus on the truth, and not counter lies with lies.

In this case, let's not try to make a teachable moment out of one that is as nonsensical as it gets.

 

[WhoWee]

You're right. He wouldn't have to have had personal contact with Kelly. Deranged of not, Loughner is politically-aware. He went to a previous Giffords meet-and-greet and he saved the form-letter and the envelope that her staff sent him, and wrote comments on them. The notion that he was blissfully unaware of the Giffords vs Kelley race is laughable, at best.

Perhaps some day we will get some clarification on his motivation, but it does not serve us well to treat him like a random nut that cracked. He planned, and he bragged about it in writing. Now, why?

my bold

Again, support your comments turbo. All we know for certain is the deranged gunman was aware of his first victim and had 2 previous contacts with her - one verbal and one written. Show proof or retract your "laughable" statement.

 

[WhoWee]

She didn't respond in Spanish according to his friend that was there. I don't know who started that Spanish rumour, I know it got printed somewhere but was corrected. I posted the friend's version earlier in this thread in an article.

Just seeing Kelly's gun ads opposing Giffords could be all he needed to plant the idea of shooting her. Kelly could be extremeley relevant YOU DON'T KNOW. Unless you can provide an article that says Loughner says he didn't know of kelly, your posts amount to misinformation, so stop. You can say you don't think he did, I think he did since Kelly was all over the news where Loughner lived. You cannot say that he didn't, that's against the rules to state personal opinion as fact.

The absence of Kelley information at his residence infers he was not aware of Kelley. Otherwise it is my opinion that he had no contact with Kelly.

 

[turbo]

my bold

Again, support your comments turbo. All we know for certain is the deranged gunman was aware of his first victim and had 2 previous contacts with her - one verbal and one written. Show proof or retract your "laughable" statement.

You're playing games with forum rules. The police have already recovered the written materials from Giffords' staff from his home. Loughner wrote comments on those papers, including "die *****" and a statement indicating that he had planned the assault. There may be more, but what the police have released already is support enough.

 

[WhoWee]

You're playing games with forum rules. The police have already recovered the written materials from Giffords' staff from his home. Loughner wrote comments on those papers, including "die *****" and a statement indicating that he had planned the assault. There may be more, but what the police have released already is support enough.

Did any of the materials mention Kelley?

 

[nismaratwork]

Would you two take it to PM if it's going to be like this? You're both quite a bit better than this, and we all know it.

 

[jreelawg]

I don't know if this has already been discussed, but friends of Loughner had said that he underwent a dramatic change and started to unravel after beginning to abuse drugs, especially alcahol and salvia, as well as LSD, and shrooms.

As far as I am concerned, his abuse of salvia, LSD, and shrooms, was most likely the root of his mental illness. I'm kind of surprised that with all the talk about his mental illness, I haven't heard anyone make the connection.

 

[Evo]

Did any of the materials mention Kelley?

None of the materials mentioned buying a gun or buying the extended magazines either and we know he had those. Nothing was found stating he knew Gifford's was going to be at Safeway or that he was going to Safeway to shoot people either. So what's your point? This is getting silly.