Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, 6 YTBN Shot, Killed In Tuscon AZ

[nismaratwork]

No.

I'm basing it on a very common stereotype Americans in general have of...Texans, and other hillbilly citizens of your country.

THAT stereotype is the basis for the particular ad, and you know it.

This is purely for accuracy's sake:


Hick/Redneck is what you're thinking of. A 'Hillbilly' is actually a completely different stereotype that's based along the Appalachian region and not the American Southwest. A hillbilly might shoot you with rock salt to get off his land because the moonshine, 'done made him all crazy,' but they are defined by a solitary lifestyle and their origins.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

It's one thing to say after the tragedy that the map was jocular but no longer is. It's another to say before the tragedy that the map is jocular but won't be in the future. Loughner is not the first loner. Palin should have seen this coming.

 

[arildno]

To expand upon this:

I consider that ad to be emblematic of a particular type of political strategy, that is not unknown among heavily stereotyped groups (note, being "stereotyped" is not the same as being "oppressed"):

Namely a strategy of slamming the stereotype into the face of the stereotyper ad absurdum.

Like:
"You want to see me as a stereotype? Well, I'll give you "stereotype" so much you will rue ever to have stereotyped me in that way!".

A combative, confrontational rhetoric that challenges the stereotype by drawing it into ad absurdum.
It might easily backfire, but precisely because the risk of back-firing, the person espousing this strategy must be granted recognition of a certain level of political "courage".

I don't think such strategies as necessarily particularly dumb or offensive, no. Insensitive&provocative? Yes, so what?

The strategy is perhaps best known from how some groups espousing rights for homosexuals have adopted a queening strategy, i.e, gays who adopt a posture so absurdly feminine&high-pitched that it seems to live up to every single aspect of the traditional stereotype, thereby, in a way, emptying it of threatening content, by making that content explicit, rather than remaining threatening within the subconsciouslevel.

 

[arildno]

This is purely for accuracy's sake:


Hick/Redneck is what you're thinking of. A 'Hillbilly' is actually a completely different stereotype that's based along the Appalachian region and not the American Southwest. A hillbilly might shoot you with rock salt to get off his land because the moonshine, 'done made him all crazy,' but they are defined by a solitary lifestyle and their origins.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[arildno]

BTW, I have no sympathy about Palin and her crowd.

 

[arildno]

Concerning political/economical fights/competition, rhetoric that draws on imagery from the military/violent confrontations IS far more prevalent in the US than in Europe.

Face it, Americans like to "spice up" how you talk politics or business, relative to Europeans. All across your wide political spectrum.

THUS, taking that into account, I'm not very shocked that an American politician would use "target practice" as a way of identifying specific political antagonists.

BTW, I have little respect for the queasy, hypocritical, collectivistic European rhetoric of consensus.

For example, like one prominent Norwegian politician said "We are ALL Social Democrats, in a way".
(He was NOT from the Labour Party)

 

[Evo]

source? i thought i read that he said the guy was politically active but not a radical.

Well, this friend that's known him for years says he was a political radical, which would seem to fit.

"He was a political radical & met Giffords once before in '07, asked her a question & he told me she was 'stupid & unintelligent.'"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/08599204142700;_ylt=AkC39vV6__NneD6lYXVnPehH2ocA;_ylu=X3oDMTJqcWJrdDJyBGFzc2V0A3RpbWUvMjAxMTAxMDkvMDg1OTkyMDQxNDI3MDAEY3BvcwMzBHBvcwMzBHNlYwN5bl90b3Bfc3RvcmllcwRzbGsDdHJhZ2VkeWludHVj

 

[DevilsAvocado]

For example, like one prominent Norwegian politician said "We are ALL Social Democrats, in a way".
(He was NOT from the Labour Party)

And we must not forget that very prominent Swedish politician who said (when he thought the microphone was off):

"Well, (groan)... Norway IS the last communist country in the world... (sigh)"​

(He WAS from the Swedish Labour Party )


About the SP "ad", it’s okay arildno, we all do "mistakes" sometimes... and there’s no use to "pretend" to be an American... at least not if you’re from Trøndelag...

 

[arildno]

And we must not forget that very prominent Swedish politician who said (when he thought the microphone was off):

"Well, (groan)... Norway IS the last communist country in the world... (sigh)"​

(He WAS from the Swedish Labour Party )


About the SP "ad", it’s okay arildno, we all do "mistakes" sometimes... and there’s no use to "pretend" to be an American... at least not if you’re from Trøndelag...

What "mistake" have I made?

And no, I'm no redneck from Trøndelag, with their predilection for self-brewed moonshine and brawls.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

No kidding; the reaction I remember was something between annoyance and maybe a sliver of fear. I'm sorry arildno, but there's a REASON we're all so fascinated by Palin; she's like a stereotype of America, with bangs. She's not even REALLY that stereotype, it's just marketing! A guy like Ted Nugent is... weird... and probably VERY American, but if I'm in his company I wouldn't worry that he knows how to use a gun or not. Sarah Palin TALKS about these things, but has none of the mettle to back it up, and none of the experience to temper her approach.

People may think that the USA is just the wild west with a dash of Woo and Tarantino directing. There is an INCREDIBLY vocal minority which take gun rights to this religious and terrified extreme. As has been pointed out to me, and backed with fairly accurate statistics, we're a really gun-happy people, and it may be that the influx of those guns into the Mexican narco-conflict, we'll have a reference point for a society in chaos before, and after that influx.

Part of being a responsible citizen in a society that owns guns is also NOT to make light of them; they're tools for killing animals (people included) and has no other function or reasonable use. The combination of a lack of education, this religious 'my faith is my brain' movement, and other factors with guns in the mix... and yeah, it can be ugly. I still feel safer walking down the streets of Detroit at midnight, unarmed and wearing a gold watch, than I ever will walking the streets of Manila, Moscow, Bogota, ANYWHERE in Mexico right now, and many more as the saying goes.

A society with even the level of gun violence we experience is still not by definition a disorganized society, and it's chaos and the fear of random and un-punished/prevented crime that really undermines a culture. In that sense, it may be the infusion of fear in the last few decades, and not the guns which are most to blame. I can't think of any group of people who live in such comfort and safety, who have an immense police force and military, and still feel the need to be so heavily armed.

I enjoy target shooting with a couple of pistols and a rifle, but things have gotten weirdly fetishistic for some. Finally, the image that came to mind when I heard this is that of the guy at a tea-party rally with an AR-15, loaded, slung on his back. Yes, he has the legal right, but the total lack of common sense is startling. When you add images like that to our religious crazies, political crazies, and the rhetoric of the NRA... I'm not shocked that arildno thinks we'd find crosshairs on people jocular. I'm not saying we should be concerned about our image, but the reasonable conclusions people are drawing based on our behaviour and rhetoric.

EXCELLENT nismaratwork! Best reflection this far!

I think this is exactly what "hit" arildno:

"People may think that the USA is just the wild west with a dash of Woo and Tarantino directing."​

Many over here think it’s just as in the movies we all watch (when it’s only New York that’s that crazy IRL ) and we all want to to be cool like Bruce Willis PANG BOOM SPLASH!

 

[nismaratwork]

EXCELLENT nismaratwork! Best reflection this far!

I think this is exactly what "hit" arildno:

"People may think that the USA is just the wild west with a dash of Woo and Tarantino directing."​

Many over here think it’s just as in the movies we all watch (when it’s only New York that’s that crazy IRL ) and we all want to to be cool like Bruce Willis PANG BOOM SPLASH!

I MOSTLY agree with you, which is odd since you just finished agreeing with me... hmm. Anyway, if you live in the USA and just watch and read the news, I think a large majority would come away feeling that the country was becoming more dangerous, with a soaring murder and child-kidnapping rate.

This goes to arildno's point that our media does love its spice, and they are instrumental (as we see with all of the networks) in choosing who gets airtime. It may be that Fox News sticks mostly to ideology, but every other network pretty much leaps on anything sensational. 'Little blonde girl kidnapped!'... meanwhile the rates haven't rose, our crime is down, and stranger kidnapping is statistically unlikely.

So, if you're watching the USA from outside, it's security, religion vs. science, free speech, guns, money and sex. It's... really just a country like most others, just much larger and more diverse. We also have a disproportionate level of gun crime by at least an order of magnitude compared to even other gun owning nations. I have to thank Jarednjames for some very useful leads on statistics there; not anti or pro-gun, just the reality.

Guns make a region more dangerous, or so it seems, or maybe people who perceive that they live in a dangerous region cause an influx of guns. I'm sure that it's far more complex and multifaceted, but I don't want to start a firearms debate. HOWEVER, the degree to which the presence of guns per capita correlates with an increase in gun crime is HORRIBLY distorted in the USA.

That tells me that we as a country have problems, one of which is this incessant fear at all times, but another is a terrible lack of mental-health support. This Laughner a*****E dropped out of high-school, was BOOTED from community college, and rejected by the military by age 22. For those not familiar with the USA, that's like getting your skull cracked open in a pillowfight... it should get everyone's attention. In the end this story is going to bifurcate:

1.) Yeah, we have a horrendous political atmosphere, and unrelated or not maybe this is a chance to impose some artificial guilt and curtail that.
2.) Where were the people in this guy's life who (I think we can agree based on the youtube and manifesto) is practically from the "who might snap" handbook. Parents, employers, ex girl or boyfriends, people who's attention he tried to get before this... etc.

Then again, was Reagan shot because he was hated by liberals, or because of his role in a world-changer like the end of the cold war? No... he was shot because someone wanted to impress Jodie Foster. Even if Sarah Palin said, "kill this *****", it's still not her FAULT, but we should wonder why we listen to that kind of crap when we can't tolerate the reality.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

What "mistake" have I made?

And no, I'm no redneck from Trøndelag, with their predilection for self-brewed moonshine and brawls.

Relax, I am NOT saying you’re a "redneck from Trøndelag", it was a JOKE.

What I’m saying that you might have "pretended" (by mistake) to "be an American" in the case of the "ad"...


(I’m trying to save your face here, because I KNOW you would never say to a fellow Norwegian – "Hey! Look at that really smart political ad with rifle-scope crosshairs and reloads and all that funny stuff!" )

 

[arildno]

Again:
You are pushing the two-valued variable fallacy concerning intelligence.
Saying something is "not dumb" is not equivalent to saying it is smart.

can you stop that..dumb rhetorical strategy? Please?

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Okay, I’m not going to "torture" you anymore; we both know, 100% sure, that this doesn’t work neither in Sweden or Norway, EOD:

I think Palin's ad was neither offensive or dumb, it was an evidently playful manner of identifying key political antagonists.

 

[nismaratwork]

Again:
You are pushing the two-valued variable fallacy concerning intelligence.
Saying something is "not dumb" is not equivalent to saying it is smart.

can you stop that..dumb rhetorical strategy? Please?

DA, or me? I don't think I called you dumb, and I KNOW I didn't mean to... I respect you, even if I don't always agree with you. From my experience as well, DA is playful, and I doubt he'd be insulting you intentionally either. That's just my view of course, for what it's worth.


To all. I think most of us agree that Sarah Palin didn't put a gun in this psychopath's hands, but did she act RESPONSIBLY, maturely... statesmanlike? Hell no, she's shooting deer, pimping herself on the lecture circuit and fundraising. This is like "Killer Tiller", and O'Reilly... did he kill the man? NO! Is he responsible? NO.
BUT

There is the appearance of impropriety, and there is this:

If I work with severely disturbed individuals with persistent delusions in a psychiatric setting, and I know that when I mention the moon I'm going to cause enormous agitation with a predictable endpoint (sedation, or an end to the session). So, I didn't make the moon-moles who are going to invade us in their cheese ships part of his delusions, but I know better than to FEED THEM, or to prod in a crude manner.

As we've all seemed to agree, the world is filled with people who are angry, armed, mentally ill. We should be aware that just as shouting 'fire' in a theater, or starting a riot is a BAD idea (and illegal), what politicians and the media are doing here is further removed, but similar. Maybe the result is that a group of school-kids at his old high-school are alive now, instead of civic-minded people, a judge, a kid, and others. Is that BETTER, when we're dealing with a bomb that will go off? If we accept that people like Palin, and even more the insane ramblings of Beck (Who sounds most like this kid) influence the targets and delusions of these nuts.

That's not illegal, it's not even wrong, but it's... very irresponsible. You do not feed the ramblings of paranoiacs and delusional fools by supporting the language that comes out of the extremes of both parties, but for now is focused on a few people.


Oh, and since people ARE shot and killed, maybe we should also reflect on the long-term wisdom of Palin and Beck's, or a guy like Michael Moore's strategies. Maybe it's time to realize that these people are in it for the money, and they use the easiest buttons people have: anger, fear, lust, hate, love, faith. I'd like to see an end to this rhetoric (when it is rhetoric) before we see the left follow the right even further off this cliff of hyperbole that is lost on madmen.

 

[nismaratwork]

Note: It appears, according to the surgeons and director of neurology at UMC, that she's capable of following basic non-verbal commands when not in a medically induced coma. The bullet did NOT destroy major blood vessels, but did track through the back of the head on the left hemisphere, exiting the front of the head. There is no way now, to know how or if she'll recover, but if she does it will be a very long term process, if not a lifetime process.

In short, not as lucky as all of the congresswomen who HAVEN'T been shot in the head, but within that group about as lucky as I can imagine short NOT being shot in the head.

 

[nismaratwork]

Sorry for the triple post ladies and gents...

Here's a small sample of Laughner: http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/08/arizona.shootings.suspect.social/index.html?iref=NS1

I've read a lot more of his "work", and you can see from the repetition, and the horribly skewed perceptions that this man's thoughts were profoundly disturbed, with a great deal of confusion, repetition, and near-ritualistic phrasing. The preoccupation with grammar makes me guess Schizophrenia, but it's just a guess; still... when I see that kind of writing, with that sense of struggle to manage basic concepts... Schizophrenia, or acute and prolonged manic state.

 

[nismaratwork]

Whoever it was here who predicted that the internet would be blamed gets a BIG cookie! I just saw the first talking head digging into the issue for political truffles, and coming up with another cause celeb.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Then again, was Reagan shot because he was hated by liberals, or because of his role in a world-changer like the end of the cold war? No... he was shot because someone wanted to impress Jodie Foster. Even if Sarah Palin said, "kill this *****", it's still not her FAULT, but we should wonder why we listen to that kind of crap when we can't tolerate the reality.

Agree.

I don’t know WTF is going on. It’s impossible to get a solid picture on what’s really going on over there, but I’ve got to tell you, some things scare the sh*t out of me: nutcase rednecks + fanatic religious + gun wackos + Teabaging Party + weeping Glenn Beck + "brilliant" Mama Grizzly + THE BOMB

You could laugh at it all, but I don’t understand how SP can get 30% in the polls (according to Ivan) and gather 200,000 in D.C.??

... it’s a MF mystery to me ... are all these people nuts? How many brain cells do you need to realize that this woman is NOT capable of handling THE BUTTON?? One?? Two??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/sfCnSVSbzLs&fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0&amp;color1=0x402061&amp;color2=0x9461ca"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/sfCnSVSbzLs&fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0&amp;color1=0x402061&amp;color2=0x9461ca" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

I think Sheriff Clarence Dupnik has a real good point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/fVOCPO_a_MI&fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0&amp;color1=0x402061&amp;color2=0x9461ca"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/fVOCPO_a_MI&fs=1&amp;hl=en_US&amp;rel=0&amp;color1=0x402061&amp;color2=0x9461ca" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

The only "good" news is that FOX News is actually showing this... maybe I’m just exaggerating a "distorted picture"...

 

[DevilsAvocado]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZtfUaQXnow

Thanks Ivan.

 

[NeoDevin]

I'm impressed. It's been almost 24 hours, and only two people have tried to turn this into a debate about gun ownership in the forum. Even more impressive is that each of them used the same event to argue for an opposite point of view in the debate.

 

[mheslep]

You could laugh at it all, but I don’t understand how SP can get 30% in the polls (according to Ivan) and gather 200,000 in D.C.??

... it’s a MF mystery to me ... are all these people nuts? How many brain cells do you need to realize that this woman is NOT capable of handling THE BUTTON?? One?? Two??

That's the September 2009 Tea Party march on the Capitol; Palin was not there, did not speak, and has no official connection with the Tea Party.
http://washingtonindependent.com/59109/beltway-conservatives-comb-tea-party-movement-for-converts
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125276685577405975.html?mod=rss_Today's_Most_Popular

 

[rhody]

I promised to bow out of this, but I just http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0111/47307.html" and couldn't resist.

Moments after the shootings, Hernandez checked the pulses of other shooting victims who were lying on the pavement and spotted Giffords.

He applied pressure on the bullet entry point to stop the bleeding and pulled Giffords into his lap, holding her upright against him so she wouldn’t choke on her own blood. Giffords was conscious, but quiet, the Republic reported.

He then instructed another bystander how to apply pressure to the wounds suffered by Giffords’ district director Ron Barber.

According to the Republic, Barber told Hernandez, “Make sure you stay with Gabby. Make sure you help Gabby.”

He stayed with Giffords until paramedics arrived and rode with her in the ambulance. On the ride to the hospital, he held her hand. She squeezed his back, the paper said.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0111/47307.html#ixzz1AZ44wBwN

Seems this young intern saved her life, way to go, way to go...

Rhody...

 

[dilletante]

Not that it has any relevance to the shooting, but somewhat ironically Giffords owns a Glock 9mm pistol. She has also portrayed herself as a gun advocate.

 

[nismaratwork]

Not that it has any relevance to the shooting, but somewhat ironically Giffords owns a Glock 9mm pistol. She has also portrayed herself as a gun advocate.

So, this is an irrelevant fact you chose to share here... why? You seem to be implying something with all of the subtlety of a walrus mounting another on land.


DA: It's scary to be here sometimes, but we're not pirating ships or arming crazed dictators (lately), so I'd be more concerned about the Korean Peninsula, 3 upcoming Chinese carriers, Iran and what Israel will do, Darfur...

Remember, random violence is rare compared to being harmed in ANY country by your nearest and dearest, so this event can't be emblematic of any country's behaviour.

 

[nismaratwork]

I promised to bow out of this, but I just http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0111/47307.html" and couldn't resist.


Seems this young intern saved her life, way to go, way to go...

Rhody...

It sounds like everyone was lucky that they had the staff on hand at the hospital, and in the case of a wound like her's... well... everyone had to do something amazing or she wouldn't be alive. I suspect that there are a lot of people who will go unsung in all of this, who did their jobs and saved a dozen or more lives.

 

[rhody]

Not that it has any relevance to the shooting, but somewhat ironically Giffords owns a Glock 9mm pistol. She has also portrayed herself as a gun advocate.

dilletante,

I broke my promise twice now, if she ever fired that AK she would be in for some serious pain, the way she is holding it, you put in the the crux of your armpit, not above the way she is holding it.

Rhody...

Edit: P.S. Just an opinion, this thread has the feel of a constantly breaking news story, does anyone agree ?

 

[JaredJames]

Out of curiosity, was there much in the way of security at this place?

 

[EnumaElish]

I don't know about Fox, but Palin is in this up to her eyeballs (politically, not legally). The prosecutor has to look for a motive and she is sticking out like a sore thumb.

Here it says that the prosecutor HAS TO look for a motive only if it's a hate crime:

"A hate crime is one crime that requires proof of a certain motive. Generally, a hate crime is motivated by the defendant's belief regarding a protected status of the victim, such as the victim's religion, sex, disability, customs, or national origin. In states that prosecute hate crimes, the prosecution must prove that the defendant was motivated by animosity toward a protected status of the victim. Hate-crime laws are exceptions to the general rule that proof of motive is not required in a criminal prosecution."

It also implies that in an ordinary criminal lawsuit (i.e. not a hate crime), a motive is useful but not essential to prove.

I do agree that the motive can be expected to be a big part of both sides (prosecution & defense) anyway.

 

[nismaratwork]

That's the September 2009 Tea Party march on the Capitol; Palin was not there, did not speak, and has no official connection with the Tea Party.
http://washingtonindependent.com/59109/beltway-conservatives-comb-tea-party-movement-for-converts
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125276685577405975.html?mod=rss_Today's_Most_Popular

The map aside, I see much more Glenn Beck in this young man, along with obvious and persistent mental complications, that I do of Sarah Palin. In fact, if you really try to decipher his ramblings for what he was concerned about, it was control over his thoughts. That's typical of someone divorced from reality and feeling that their condition and "bad" thoughts and feelings are of an externally imposed nature. He screams "nuts", and to be blunt, if this is a politically motivated killing that can be laid at the feet of Palin or the like... why such a centrist?

No, the more I hear, the more it seems that this guy was wound up a particular way, and that the contents of our media became ingrained in his delusions. I'm a little surprised at his lack of cooperation with the authorities... you'd expect someone like him to be unable to control his impulses well, and that he would want to brag.

Bottom line, we know enough about this guy now that he presents the classic portrait of a spree or "snap" killer.

 

[nismaratwork]

Out of curiosity, was there much in the way of security at this place?

Zip, zilch, nada. The police were informed of the event, but not present, so the only reason more weren't hurt is that when the gunmen began to reload his pistol, two staffers tackled him and held him down until the police arrived.

 

[nismaratwork]

Here it says that the prosecutor HAS TO look for a motive only if it's a hate crime:

"A hate crime is one crime that requires proof of a certain motive. Generally, a hate crime is motivated by the defendant's belief regarding a protected status of the victim, such as the victim's religion, sex, disability, customs, or national origin. In states that prosecute hate crimes, the prosecution must prove that the defendant was motivated by animosity toward a protected status of the victim. Hate-crime laws are exceptions to the general rule that proof of motive is not required in a criminal prosecution."

It also implies that in an ordinary criminal lawsuit (i.e. not a hate crime), a motive is useful but not essential to prove.

I do agree that the motive can be expected to be a big part of both sides (prosecution & defense) anyway.

You're correct, but in practice motive is often something people feel the need for, so even in baffling cases prosecutors tend to construct a narrative. In this case, it hardly matters; his guilt isn't decided, but it won't be for a lack of witnesses and security footage.

 

[Evo]

Zip, zilch, nada. The police were informed of the event, but not present, so the only reason more weren't hurt is that when the gunmen began to reload his pistol, two staffers tackled him and held him down until the police arrived.

The police chief said that he had plenty of bullets left in the magazine, where did you read that he was re-loading?

Out of curiosity, was there much in the way of security at this place?

She did not request security, it was part of her plan to be closer and more accessible to the public.

 

[EnumaElish]

Zip, zilch, nada. The police were informed of the event, but not present, so the only reason more weren't hurt is that when the gunmen began to reload his pistol, two staffers tackled him and held him down until the police arrived.

Already there are calls for/expectation of airport-like security for access to U.S. politicians in the future:

"In the case of the shooting, the by-product of our system is that the people have for the most part unobstructed access to their politicians."

http://dailybail.com/home/ron-paul-on-the-colbert-report-debating-the-gold-standard-wh.html

 

[Proton Soup]

Well, this friend that's known him for years says he was a political radical, which would seem to fit.



http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/08599204142700;_ylt=AkC39vV6__NneD6lYXVnPehH2ocA;_ylu=X3oDMTJqcWJrdDJyBGFzc2V0A3RpbWUvMjAxMTAxMDkvMDg1OTkyMDQxNDI3MDAEY3BvcwMzBHBvcwMzBHNlYwN5bl90b3Bfc3RvcmllcwRzbGsDdHJhZ2VkeWludHVj

thanks! just different perspectives apparently.
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3073103&postcount=146