Smart or Attractive? Biology's Debate on Selection

[makethings]

Beauty is important. If intelligence is not genetic, then you can teach your mate. Therefore, having an attractive mate in terms of looks (eg. symmetric or proportioned features) is as best as an indicator we have to determine if they have healthy genes so as to preserve your genetic legacy during procreation. Follow your evolutionary programming.

If you are not interested in passing on your genes to the next generation, or rather you are more concerned in the short term with survival, then you would choose intelligence. Intelligence is seen as a more stable and risk-averse way of securing wealth (ie. Intelligence = better prospects to find jobs or start businesses) so that you can live comfortably.

And so that concludes my crackpot theory of why people chose what they chose.

 

[turbo]

I guess it depends on whether it works better for you to have your partner gagged or yourself blindfolded. I might also be able to put up with a dumb partner if I went profoundly deaf.

You're a stitch, Moonie!

 

[turbo]

boy... these poll results are not very flattering: 38% percent of PFrs are shallow, while the other 62% are liars

You should rent the movie "The Man With Two Brains". "Duke, duke, duke, duke of earl..." Randi Brooks was a very compliant hooker. - "I don't mind!"

Steve eventually ends up with the woman of his dreams.

 

[JasonRox]

I dunno.. intelligence and beauty are nice, but love, compassion, and kindness are more important to me than both. I don't really care what mix of intelligence and beauty she has, as long as she has a good heart.

- Warren

Those are the choices.

Obviously I want the whole package and not just beauty and intelligence. Those are the choices though.

 

[JasonRox]

Ok, why is beauty always carrying stupidity?

I dated probably one of the most stunning girls at my university and she was nowhere near dumb.

I also met many many pretty girls that weren't dumb.

I don't get it.

I met many ugly girls that were dumb though.

 

[hypatia]

I had to go with the smart, because the true thing I look for is a great sense of humor. I have found that people who are well read, are funnier.

 

[ShawnD]

I had to go with attractive. Smart is good and all but it would take a lot of brain damage and or alcohol to sleep something you find repulsive.

 

[DeadWolfe]

She can be 100 pounds overweight with a horse face as long as she appreciates De Rham cohomology.

 

[BobG]

I guess it depends on whether it works better for you to have your partner gagged or yourself blindfolded. I might also be able to put up with a dumb partner if I went profoundly deaf.

Holy cow! Blindfolds? Gags? Whips and chains, too?

Hmmm, even if you went deaf, he'd be able to sign dumb things (and probably make dumb-looking signs while he was at it.) You'll need the blindfold in either scenario.

Actually, if we're setting a 5 as the bottom level, neither one would be very high on my priority list. Then again, having a smart kid would be better than having a dumb kid, so I'd still go with smart and homely.

 

[JasonRox]

Hmmm, even if you went deaf, he'd be able to sign dumb things.

Not true. Your mate would be too dumb to learn sign language. Hence, being deaf is sufficient.

 

[ShawnD]

Not true. Your mate would be too dumb to learn sign language. Hence, being deaf is sufficient.

You'd figure out he/she is an idiot when the TV seems to be stuck on Entertainment Tonight and Fox News.

 

[Zantra]

I think this puts things in perspective:

THIS APPEARED ON CRAIG'S LIST

What am I doing wrong?

Okay, I'm tired of beating around the bush. I'm a beautiful (spectacularly
beautiful) 25 year old girl. I'm articulate and classy.
I'm not from New York. I'm looking to get married to a guy who makes at
least half a million a year. I know how that sounds, but keep in mind that a
million a year is middle class in New York City, so I don't think I'm
overreaching at all.

Are there any guys who make 500K or more on this board? Any wives? Could you
send me some tips? I dated a business man who makes average around 200 -
250. But that's where I seem to hit a roadblock. 250,000 won't get me to
central park west. I know a woman in my yoga class who was married to an
investment banker and lives in Tribeca, and she's not as pretty as I am, nor
is she a great genius. So what is she doing right? How do I get to her
level?

Here are my questions specifically:

- Where do you single rich men hang out? Give me specifics- bars,
restaurants, gyms

-What are you looking for in a mate? Be honest guys, you won't hurt my
feelings

-Is there an age range I should be targeting (I'm 25)?

- Why are some of the women living lavish lifestyles on the upper east side
so plain? I've seen really 'plain jane' boring types who have nothing to
offer married to incredibly wealthy guys. I've seen drop dead gorgeous girls
in singles bars in the east village. What's the story there?

- Jobs I should look out for? Everyone knows - lawyer, investment banker,
doctor. How much do those guys really make? And where do they hang out?
Where do the hedge fund guys hang out?

- How you decide marriage vs. just a girlfriend? I am looking for MARRIAGE
ONLY

Please hold your insults - I'm putting myself out there in an honest way.
Most beautiful women are superficial; at least I'm being up front about it.
I wouldn't be searching for these kind of guys if I wasn't able to match
them - in looks, culture, sophistication, and keeping a nice home and
hearth.


THE ANSWER


Dear Pers-431649184:

I read your posting with great interest and have thought meaningfully about
your dilemma. I offer the following analysis of your predicament.
Firstly, I'm not wasting your time, I qualify as a guy who fits your bill;
that is I make more than $500K per year. That said here's how I see it.

Your offer, from the prospective of a guy like me, is plain and simple a
crappy business deal. Here's why. Cutting through all the B.S., what you
suggest is a simple trade: you bring your looks to the party and I bring my
money. Fine, simple. But here's the rub, your looks will fade and my money
will likely continue into perpetuity...in fact, it is very likely that my
income increases but it is an absolute certainty that you won't be getting
any more beautiful!

So, in economic terms you are a depreciating asset and I am an earning
asset. Not only are you a depreciating asset, your depreciation accelerates!
Let me explain, you're 25 now and will likely stay pretty hot for the next 5
years, but less so each year. Then the fade begins in earnest. By 35 stick a
fork in you!

So in Wall Street terms, we would call you a trading position, not a buy and
hold...hence the rub...marriage. It doesn't make good business sense to "buy
you" (which is what you're asking) so I'd rather lease. In case you think
I'm being cruel, I would say the following. If my money were to go away, so
would you, so when your beauty fades I need an out. It's as simple as that.
So a deal that makes sense is dating, not marriage.

Separately, I was taught early in my career about efficient markets. So, I
wonder why a girl as "articulate, classy and spectacularly beautiful"
as you has been unable to find your sugar daddy. I find it hard to believe
that if you are as gorgeous as you say you are that the $500K hasn't found
you, if not only for a tryout.

By the way, you could always find a way to make your own money and then we
wouldn't need to have this difficult conversation.

With all that said, I must say you're going about it the right way.
Classic "pump and dump."
I hope this is helpful, and if you want to enter into some sort of lease,
let me know.


And that's why I vote smart and homely well, that and the fact that I need someone I can have a decent coversation with, but I wanted to mention the ad.

 

[Moonbear]

Not true. Your mate would be too dumb to learn sign language. Hence, being deaf is sufficient.

That's what I was hoping for. I guess I could always tie up his hands too.


Talking about smart and pretty (your other comment), I don't know if anyone but me in my insomniac mode watches those shows on tattoo artists (Miami Ink or LA Ink, or wherever someone's getting inky), but this is the sort of stuff I end up watching while not sleeping at 2 AM. Anyway, this week, they had a show where this really attractive woman comes in for a tattoo...in the very stereotypical, TV attractive sense...blonde, tall, thin, leggy. And, she wants a cartoon of a rocketship tattooed on her back. She starts talking about being a grad student in physics (I hope she's not a member here...or maybe if she is, she needs to hear this). In her tattoo design, she includes F=ma, and makes a big point to the tattoo artist about having the arrows over the variables to properly write it as vectors. The tattoo artist is getting this glazed over look as she's saying, "You don't know this equation? Everyone should know this." Then a bit later, they cut to the tattoo artist commenting how he quickly realized they "Have nothing to talk about." They cut to her and she's talking about integration, and in this strangely ditzy voice says something like, "I thought EVERYONE knew that! Who doesn't know that?" Yeah, really, she said that, apparently oblivious to how many people in the real world around her have never studied calculus.

I was just watching this show, staring, unable to pull myself away from the train wreck, trying to figure out how someone could be simultaneously SO smart and yet SO ditzy and clueless! I wanted to reach into the screen and shake her and tell her "Yes, you're smart, but now wake up to the reality of the world around you and stop being such a snob!"

So, you can have beauty and brains...but OMG!...the cluelessness and arrogance that went with it, it would be a trial of patience to spend any time around that person!

 

[Moonbear]

You'd figure out he/she is an idiot when the TV seems to be stuck on Entertainment Tonight and Fox News.

As long as they don't figure out how to turn on the close captioning so I don't know what they're actually saying, I could tolerate that.

 

[ShawnD]

That's what I was hoping for. I guess I could always tie up his hands too.

Kinky edit:

I was just watching this show, staring, unable to pull myself away from the train wreck, trying to figure out how someone could be simultaneously SO smart and yet SO ditzy and clueless! I wanted to reach into the screen and shake her and tell her "Yes, you're smart, but now wake up to the reality of the world around you and stop being such a snob!"

She probably grew up in a middle class area where everybody goes to university. I grew up in the suburbs and almost everybody I went to school with, and can find on facebook, went to university. Some of them are pretty high up too. I'm in the lower class of people who just have 1 piece of paper, but one guy I know is doing a double major in physics and biology, one went on to law school, one is doing med school, another is going for a master's degree. Conversely, my best friend grew up more towards the middle of the city, and his entire circle of friends is high school dropouts.

 

[Moonbear]

Kinky

Why, Shawn, I have no idea what you could be reading into my totally innocent statements.

 

[Huckleberry]

I agree with chroot on all counts here.

By mate do you mean having sex with that person or a life-long relationship? That dramatically changes what I'm looking for most in a partner. To answer honestly I would say that physical attractiveness is the primary factor in considering sex with a woman I have just met. For me the lure of physical attraction fades quickly and other qualities become much more important for a long term relationship. Overall, intelligence is much more valuable to me than beauty, but there are other qualities such as compassion, sincerity and humility that are far more valuable than either. Ultimately, I would consider a life-long mate that I initially found neither attractive or intelligent.

Oh, did I mention that she would have to be very, very, VERY patient?

 

[Moonbear]

She probably grew up in a middle class area where everybody goes to university. I grew up in the suburbs and almost everybody I went to school with, and can find on facebook, went to university.

I grew up in suburbs and most of the kids I knew went on to university too, but I still wasn't oblivious to the fact that not everyone grows up like that or learns calculus...especially by the time you get to grad school!

 

[Chronos]

Beauty gets old a lot faster than brains. I'll take the smart chick any day. Ugly can be surgically corrected, if necessary. There is no such procedure for stupidity.

 

[mattmns]

I voted way too early, now I am undecided. I think personality matters a lot, and with the right (or wrong) personality I could go either way.

 

[Mk]

There is no such procedure for stupidity.

Oh man. I'm using that!

 

[JasonRox]

I voted way too early, now I am undecided. I think personality matters a lot, and with the right (or wrong) personality I could go either way.

I didn't vote at all.

I don't see why everyone thinks we live in a world where we can only choose one or the other.

 

[Astronuc]

I didn't vote at all.

I don't see why everyone thinks we live in a world where we can only choose one or the other.

There are two choices, an arbitrary constraint, so pick the better of the two. It's like voting in the US. Hold your nose and vote.


Attractive AND intelligent is the ideal combination, and presumably everyone would pick that. I've met a number of very attractive women who are highly intelligent, and many have PhD's at this point. The women here at PF tend to be attractive and intelligent.

 

[rewebster]

I tend to think that 'average' looking women can be very attractive. Rather than 'attractive' though, in the 'beautiful' sense, most women I find that I'm attracted to are attractive for their smile and their 'connective-ness' and generally may be in that average category, not necessarily whether they are considered 'attractive' by others.

Zantra's post is a perfect example. Some women who think of themselves as 'beautiful' have an ego that I find personally hard to deal with in the way that their perspective of their own beauty is of more importance than the personal relationship. Let them find a shallow minded man who appreciates just a 'beauty'/'show piece' level of a mate.

Another facet is that a lot of the 'most' beautiful women that I've met tend to often have more 'idiosyncrasies' that that are so mentally time consuming that I really don't want to deal with (not that we all don't have some to 'some' degree , but I rather be with a woman that has a similar amount of them and a similar level of them).

----------------

One thing about the poll here---it's on a physics forum---the comments will more than likely lean toward 'intelligence'----put in on another 'forum' and I'd bet the comments wouldn't be the same.

 

[Evo]

I think this puts things in perspective:

THIS APPEARED ON CRAIG'S LIST

What am I doing wrong?

Okay, I'm tired of beating around the bush. I'm a beautiful (spectacularly
beautiful) 25 year old girl. I'm articulate and classy.
I'm not from New York. I'm looking to get married to a guy who makes at
least half a million a year. I know how that sounds, but keep in mind that a
million a year is middle class in New York City, so I don't think I'm
overreaching at all.

Are there any guys who make 500K or more on this board? Any wives? Could you
send me some tips? I dated a business man who makes average around 200 -
250. But that's where I seem to hit a roadblock. 250,000 won't get me to
central park west. I know a woman in my yoga class who was married to an
investment banker and lives in Tribeca, and she's not as pretty as I am, nor
is she a great genius. So what is she doing right? How do I get to her
level?

Here are my questions specifically:

- Where do you single rich men hang out? Give me specifics- bars,
restaurants, gyms

-What are you looking for in a mate? Be honest guys, you won't hurt my
feelings

-Is there an age range I should be targeting (I'm 25)?

- Why are some of the women living lavish lifestyles on the upper east side
so plain? I've seen really 'plain jane' boring types who have nothing to
offer married to incredibly wealthy guys. I've seen drop dead gorgeous girls
in singles bars in the east village. What's the story there?

- Jobs I should look out for? Everyone knows - lawyer, investment banker,
doctor. How much do those guys really make? And where do they hang out?
Where do the hedge fund guys hang out?

- How you decide marriage vs. just a girlfriend? I am looking for MARRIAGE
ONLY

Please hold your insults - I'm putting myself out there in an honest way.
Most beautiful women are superficial; at least I'm being up front about it.
I wouldn't be searching for these kind of guys if I wasn't able to match
them - in looks, culture, sophistication, and keeping a nice home and
hearth.


THE ANSWER


Dear Pers-431649184:

I read your posting with great interest and have thought meaningfully about
your dilemma. I offer the following analysis of your predicament.
Firstly, I'm not wasting your time, I qualify as a guy who fits your bill;
that is I make more than $500K per year. That said here's how I see it.

Your offer, from the prospective of a guy like me, is plain and simple a
crappy business deal. Here's why. Cutting through all the B.S., what you
suggest is a simple trade: you bring your looks to the party and I bring my
money. Fine, simple. But here's the rub, your looks will fade and my money
will likely continue into perpetuity...in fact, it is very likely that my
income increases but it is an absolute certainty that you won't be getting
any more beautiful!

So, in economic terms you are a depreciating asset and I am an earning
asset. Not only are you a depreciating asset, your depreciation accelerates!
Let me explain, you're 25 now and will likely stay pretty hot for the next 5
years, but less so each year. Then the fade begins in earnest. By 35 stick a
fork in you!

So in Wall Street terms, we would call you a trading position, not a buy and
hold...hence the rub...marriage. It doesn't make good business sense to "buy
you" (which is what you're asking) so I'd rather lease. In case you think
I'm being cruel, I would say the following. If my money were to go away, so
would you, so when your beauty fades I need an out. It's as simple as that.
So a deal that makes sense is dating, not marriage.

Separately, I was taught early in my career about efficient markets. So, I
wonder why a girl as "articulate, classy and spectacularly beautiful"
as you has been unable to find your sugar daddy. I find it hard to believe
that if you are as gorgeous as you say you are that the $500K hasn't found
you, if not only for a tryout.

By the way, you could always find a way to make your own money and then we
wouldn't need to have this difficult conversation.

With all that said, I must say you're going about it the right way.
Classic "pump and dump."
I hope this is helpful, and if you want to enter into some sort of lease,
let me know.


And that's why I vote smart and homely well, that and the fact that I need someone I can have a decent coversation with, but I wanted to mention the ad.

Love it!

 

[turbo]

Pretty good points. Beauty is a commodity that depreciates over the years, though an intelligent woman would likely continue to learn and develop her intellect.

 

[JasonRox]

Pretty good points. Beauty is a commodity that depreciates over the years, though an intelligent woman would likely continue to learn and develop her intellect.

You can trade for a younger women as you get older.

 

[Evo]

You can trade for a younger women as you get older.

And many are, if their looks were the only thing they had to offer, or if it was the only quality the man was looking for, they do get dumped for younger, more attractive women.

The complete opposite is Prince Charles choosing Camilla. I hope someone will choose me when I get old and ratty looking, which, judging by the amount of stress I'm under ,will be sometime next week. Anyone out there that wants Evo, the time is now. The bugs bites are starting to fade, and I'm not scratching as much.

 

[EnumaElish]

Because you couldn't choose homely and dumb?

Or because you couldn't choose smart and beautiful?

Or because, in real life, the answer would be none of the above because the chances are almost nil of finding a mate that will have anything to do with you.

This reminds me of:

Two missionaries are captured by a savage tribe. Next morning one of them is brought to the Chief, who asks him: "do you choose death, or do you choose roo-roo?"

Poor missionary says "roo-roo." He is tortured for hours, then killed.

In the afternoon they take the second missionary to the Chief, who poses him the same question.

The missionary says "I choose death."

"Okay," says the chief. "But first, a little roo-roo."

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

You can trade for a younger women as you get older.

So far it has taken 18 years for my wife and I to get accustomed to each other. The process is still ongoing. No way am I going to start over from scratch. I don't care what the new one looks like or how smart she is. By the way, I asked her which she would choose and she said that neither one mattered that much to her. Hmmm.

 

[Astronuc]

So far it has taken 18 years for my wife and I to get accustomed to each other.

Wow! That was quick!

 

[rewebster]

And many are, if their looks were the only thing they had to offer, or if it was the only quality the man was looking for, they do get dumped for younger, more attractive women.

this is almost sounding like...

The complete opposite is Prince Charles choosing Camilla. I hope someone will choose me when I get old and ratty looking, which, judging by the amount of stress I'm under ,will be sometime next week. Anyone out there that wants Evo, the time is now. The bugs bites are starting to fade, and I'm not scratching as much.

OK---I'll bite





I know a friend of a friend of a friend that I'll send that photo of you on the beach to, to see if he's interested.

 

[Evo]

I know a friend of a friend of a friend that I'll send that photo of you on the beach to, to see if he's interested.

Where is he on the DD scale?

 

[rewebster]

Where is he on the DD scale?

do you mean rich and famous?

 

[Evo]

do you mean rich and famous?

No, cute, funny and smart.