That Will Smith and Chris Rock thing

[russ_watters]

Giving Chris Rock the benefit of the doubt he may not have known she had a medical condition.

There have been reports that he did not know, not confirmed by him.

On the other hand women do not lose their hair like that at that age statistically at least and intelligent people tend to recognise that.

Her head is clearly shaved (the alopecia damage is on top/back, so, hard to see), which makes it look like a fashion choice, which is not uncommon amongst black women.

She could have been in the middle of treatment for cancer. He should have done his research.

If he in fact did not know, it's a little surprising since she had talked publicly about it. However, the joke was apparently not scripted. Maybe the dark green dress played into it?

If that was my wife? I would have been dignified, nodded in his direction with a straight face and stayed put. Then had a chat with him back stage.

A responsible/adult response. Also a public announcement/tweet would be appropriate.

 

[DaveC426913]

The possibility of being roasted by the host is part of the allure.

What you're suggesting is like going to Sea World, sitting in the front row and then complaining that you got splashed.

This.

One does not go to the Oscars if one can't cope with being roasted.

Regardless of motive though, smacking someone is Neanderthalesque.

(Not to mention that he's made himself fodder for every comedian from now until the Oscars years hence)

 

[DaveC426913]

I doubt it will affect his bankability as a major star

Ehhhhh...
Ask Mel Gibson if just a single toxic blowout can affect one's bankability.

 

[pinball1970]

Ehhhhh...
Ask Mel Gibson if just a single toxic blowout can affect one's bankability.

What has come out of this for me is body language? How robust is this? How sound is the science and is it Science? @jim mcnamara and @BillTre

 

[phinds]

Ehhhhh...
Ask Mel Gibson if just a single toxic blowout can affect one's bankability.

Huh? I'm aware he got a lot of bad press for a while (and as I recall, very deservedly so) but you see any gaps in his employment history up to and including this year?

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000154/

 

[jim mcnamara]

@pinball1970 -
Here are two papers showing how medical people use non-verbal communication skills
doi: 10.1186/s12909-018-1260-9
"Verbal and non-verbal communication skills including empathy during history taking of undergraduate medical students"

doi: 10.1186/s12912-020-00443-9
"Evidence of nonverbal communication between nurses and older adults: a scoping review"

Yes, it is pretty well understood. It also has cultural aspects as well.
Example anecdotes:
I lived for 30 years on Kewa and Dine - two reservations in New Mexico, Arizona.
One glaring aspect (that's a joke BTW) was that a traditional person thinks you are giving them the evil eye if you look at that person while you are talking. Eye contact is big negative. This is mostly reversed for Western culture. Our daughter drove my wife around the bend by adopting non-verbal mannerisms she learned from her friends - on purpose of course. Evil kid.

There was an exchange program for teachers in the Ganado AZ (Apache county AZ) from Millersville State in Pennsylvania. They gave a workshop on non-verbal communication and a few other things to defuse culture shock on arriving in Ganado. Navajo students going the other way were used to Anglo body language because of TV repeater networks.

 

[BillTre]

What has come out of this for me is body language? How robust is this? How sound is the science and is it Science? @jim mcnamara and @BillTre

I did not know much about this before, but I was impressed by the guy in the video.
To me it is reminiscent of a detailed behavioral analysis of some animal behavior.
It also reminds me of doing facial analysis to determine the emotions someone is feeling.
It would have been nice to see more detailed autonomic functional outputs like pupil size, breathing rate, body temperature, etc. You could go on and on, and its not in a lab setting.

Even then, I think a good actor (really feeling their part at the time) could be deceptive of their intent, but some of the details of the observations make that seem less likely to me.
More like bad ideas and bad reactions.

 

[ergospherical]

 

[DaveC426913]

Huh? I'm aware he got a lot of bad press for a while (and as I recall, very deservedly so) but you see any gaps in his employment history up to and including this year?

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000154/

If I read my wiki right, he was blacklisted by Hollywood for ten years. But it wasn't one incident, it was several, and they ranged across ethnicities.

 

[phinds]

If I read my wiki right, he was blacklisted by Hollywood for ten years. But it wasn't one incident, it was several, and they ranged across ethnicities.

What 10 years was that? Did you look at the link I provided? He has worked every year for several decades.

 

[DaveC426913]

What 10 years was that? Did you look at the link I provided? He has worked every year for several decades.

I can see by the URL you just linked to IMDb.

Your yardstick is faulty. Being blacklisted doesn't mean he did not work at all.

But ill bet his pocketbook got lonely. A more accurate metric might be how much he got paid during those ten years. Presumably he had to go with whomever would take him.

 

[russ_watters]

Huh? I'm aware he got a lot of bad press for a while (and as I recall, very deservedly so) but you see any gaps in his employment history up to and including this year?

https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000154/

Well there's a 5 year gap in movie acting starting in 2005 and a 9 year gap from directing starting in 2007 and the movies he did act in were mostly small roles or movies. I mean, he wasn't in danger of starving, but I bet he lost 90% of his career from 2006-2016 and its still not what it was before then. His wiki page describes it as a blacklisting:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mel_Gibson

[The filmography chart/matrix on wiki is easier to read than imdb]

 

[phinds]

Well there's a 5 year gap in movie acting starting in 2005 and a 9 year gap from directing starting in 2007 and the movies he did act in were mostly small roles or movies. I mean, he wasn't in danger of starving, but I bet he's lost 90% of his career from 2006-2016 and its still not what it was before then. His wiki page describes it as a blacklisting:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mel_Gibson

OOPS. I missed that. My bad (and I was only looking at the acting; I forgot he is also a director). @DaveC426913 you were right.

 

[ElDoRado1239]

I just wanted to thank you for the wonderful body language breakdown, quite fascinating.

I always love a random "deep dip" into a science I know little about. Although I think we all know quite a lot about body language by default, it's mostly just a lack of skill to properly articulate what we perceive.
Especially mere description of body language is very hard for me to decode. If somebody asked me what "tightly clasped hands with interlocked fingers" meant I'd probably say something like "is that a thing you do when you try to maintain a dignified posture while sitting in a high-class restaurant?"
Yet when I saw her do it the meaning was pretty obvious to me. Or at least I felt it means what the body language expert said it means.

Anyways - to add my two bits, I think this definitely wasn't staged. Some think that being a seasoned actor automatically makes you able to pretend anything in real-time. But an actor has a role they project, script they adhere to, director and a whole team of people steering the action even though they might not intervene directly. It was a "scene" some, what, ten minutes long? If actors could shoot scenes 10 minutes per take, it wouldn't take months to record. Will's wife looks obviously offended the second she realizes what he said. And I am confident Will didn't hear or get the joke, his laugh seems to be one of those "hahaha I've no idea what he meant". Then he saw his wife and that probably triggered him connecting the dots.

Finally - do people know why the joke was so offensive? That she has a medical condition (alopecia) and her shaved head is by no means a choice? Kind of on its way to saying "hey there baldie" to a female cancer patient. Female baldness can be especially devastating and from the other reactions and the speech, it seems she has been a target of abuse for some time now. And he told that "joke" with a proud, arrogant stance which didn't help to tone down the emotional reaction either.

Addendum : I don't see that slap as a full-on act of agression─that would be the fist someone mentioned─but rather a "shame on you!" followed by a few assorted profanities. That's what makes me think of it as rather acceptable, unlike a punch or any sort of prolonged fighting.

 

[DaveC426913]

do people know why the joke was so offensive

I don't see that slap as a full-on act of agression─that would be the fist someone mentioned─but rather a "shame on you!"

Let me see if I've got this. In one breath you are:

- condemning Rock ("so offensive") for roasting someone - a time honoured tradition at the Oscars and what he was hired by the show to do

while

- defending Smith's assault (a crime) as nothing more than a harmless rebuke.

Do I have that right?

 

[BWV]

Smith's wife is a celebrity in her own right and fair game to mock

Jim Carrey nailed it here

 

[Klystron]

I thought the whole thing was bizarre to say the least. The body language analysis I posted claims the incident was not staged.
The analysis looks at Smith, his wife and Rock then Smith's speech.
I probably know as much as the next man about body language (not a huge amount) and this break down gives examples of research on various points.
If you think it was fake I would like your view on the video. It's quite long but you will probably have a view half way through.

Interesting talk on body dynamics. 'Too much stew from one oyster' perhaps, but an instructive analysis.

What baffles me are the 'great actor', 'best performer' and 'great man' assurances. I watch few television shows and have only seen Will Smith act in a SF remake where he was upstaged by a much better child actor. The incident at the academy awards shows a tall fit man attacking a much smaller comic performing as host, not expecting violence.

At best, Smith's reaction was dangerous, immature and inappropriate, out of proportion to the joking reference. I have seen "GI Jane" with my daughter. We both admired Demi Moore's bravura performance and strong character. Rock's reference should be taken as a funny compliment to how Ms. Smith bravely shaves her head without wearing a hairpiece in public.

Smith's excuse about defending his wife indicates misogyny and sexism confirming his immaturity. My late wife and my sisters easily handle verbal social situations without my bad temper intervening. Loud bad language confirms his lack of acting chops, an inability to articulate under pressure without a script, to react as a responsible adult.

A telling moment in our culture.

 

[russ_watters]

Finally - do people know why the joke was so offensive? That she has a medical condition (alopecia) and her shaved head is by no means a choice? Kind of on its way to saying "hey there baldie" to a female cancer patient.

So, I've been taking that for granted, but I just saw an analysis of an appearance she made to talk about it several years ago by a doctor today (the video was made a couple of months ago) that suggested her main issue is probably just a plastic surgery scar. She may also have one of several forms of hair loss that half of all women get as they age, but it's not clear she even has them (and almost nobody refers to that as alopecia). There's nothing to indicate hair loss so bad she needed to shave her head.

"Alopecia" is just a generic term for hair loss, but it immediately makes people think of the severe version that is an autoimmune disease that causes large bald patches or complete baldness. There's no indication she has that.

Here it is:

 

[skyshrimp]

Chris and Will might have staged the whole thing for social media attention, but Will has also slapped a reporter in the past so who knows.

 

[Mondayman]

Jada said in an interview that all she can do is laugh about her conditon. Clearly, that was a bald-faced lie. Talking about someone's partner can be in poor taste, but I thought the joke was pretty tame. Maybe I'm biased because I grew up on South Park, Trailer Park Boys, Chapelle's Show, and Comedy Roasts.

Anyway, the Oscars suck. I don't condone violence. But having some stars drop the gloves and engaging in some fisticuffs would probably be the best thing to ever happen for it.

Funny story. Dave Hanson (from Slapshot!) fought Bobby Hull during a WHA game in1978, and pulled his toupee off during a fight. Hanson apologized, and Hull responded "It's okay kid, I needed a new one anyways".

 

[phinds]

Jada said in an interview that all she can do is laugh about her conditon. Clearly, that was a bald-faced lie.

And what leads you to that conclusion? Do you know her personally?

 

[Mondayman]

And what leads you to that conclusion? Do you know her personally?

It was a joke. I'd rather not know her personally.

 

[phinds]

It was a joke.

Ah. You meant a bald-headed lie.

 

[Mondayman]

Ah. You meant a bald-headed lie.

I certainly did.

 

[WWGD]

It seems Chris Rock's brothers:' The', 'Igneous' and ' Sedimentary' , are considering suing Smith.

 

[ergospherical]

 

[ergospherical]

Well the memes start coming and they don't stop coming

 

[DennisN]

I hate celebrity culture.

Count me in.

By the way, regarding celebrity and fame in general, here's a celebrity with a HUGE amount of integrity and distance. The talented UK musician Robert Smith (frontman of The Cure). He is one of my heroes both because of his music AND of his genuine personality.

Listen to what he says in the interview about fame and other things here (@3m54s) and here (@14m31s) and here (@15m27s). The whole video is fun to watch too, he is very witty.

 

[Melbourne Guy]

If he was sincere, why didn't he use a closed fist lights-out? A slap? That's for publicity, even if it wasn't staged.

I talked about with my team at work, @berkeman, because I thought the same thing. Men tend to punch, not slap, but apparently, in some cultures a slap is more insulting, along the lines of, "You don't even merit a punch."

Though I did wonder if Smith, having lurched on stage with intent to strike, somewhat realized how dumb he was behaving and moderated his attack at the last moment? Who knows, it was a strange reaction.

The slap was a measured response, maybe not the response expected, but it was well deserved.

Hmmm. It seemed Will Smith was laughing at the joke, saw his wife wasn't, and then he got up and physically assaulted Chris Rock. I'm glad that's not considered a 'measured response' to such slights Down Under, @Baluncore, and I can't fathom how it was 'well deserved'. Violence is momentarily satisfying, but it rarely solves root causes and as Smith is finding, often has deleterious unintended consequences.

 

[Baluncore]

Hmmm. It seemed Will Smith was laughing at the joke, ...

Or was Will Smith laughing at Chris Rock trying so hard, but failing to fabricate something to say that might be funny. I still don't see any joke. The fact that a one legged actor might play the part of a pirate is not funny for the one legged actor. Calling it a joke is simply an excuse to laugh at someones disability or medical problem.

The definition of assault varies with time and place. I can see how, in a litigious environment, any contact might be considered assault. It is certainly PC to argue that line at the moment. Trolls are scavengers and so will turn everything inside out in their search for something to be enraged about. Meanwhile to survive in the real world one needs to carry a big stick, and refrain from using it. For some, the big stick is a lawyer, for others it is a gun. To see what the real world is like, just watch TV from the USA.

 

[Jarvis323]

Hmmm. It seemed Will Smith was laughing at the joke, saw his wife wasn't, and then he got up and physically assaulted Chris Rock. I'm glad that's not considered a 'measured response' to such slights Down Under, @Baluncore, and I can't fathom how it was 'well deserved'. Violence is momentarily satisfying, but it rarely solves root causes and as Smith is finding, often has deleterious unintended consequences.

Jada was also laughing at first. I think in this environment even the audience is putting on an act as they know they are just as much part of the production as the person on stage, with the cameras in their faces and the media attention to their reactions. So laughing at the jokes and showing their cool is a sort of practiced rote response.

After the joke was processed by Jada, her attitude changed. We didn't see the turn around for Will I guess. Not sure if Chris was aware of Jada's medical condition. Anyways, these are just people. Slapping someone in this context isn't the best thing, but forgivable under the circumstances. Same with Chris's joke. Will must be dealing with some mental health issues I imagine. In the end, it's something for them to work out and for us to forget.

 

[DaveC426913]

...failing to fabricate something to say that might be funny. I still don't see any joke.

That's not really the point though.

At the Oscars, getting roasted is a risk. Everyone who goes knows that.

The Smiths went to a boxing match, knowingly stepped into ring and then got mad that the other guy took a swing at them.

The fact that a one legged actor might play the part of a pirate is not funny for the one legged actor. Calling it a joke is simply an excuse to laugh at someones disability or medical problem.

No. It's roasting. It's the Oscars. It's expected. It's what the MC is paid to do. The Smiths know that. Still they went.

Context:
A boxer - in a boxing ring - does not get charged with "assaulting" another boxer; he's doing what he's there to do: box. Everyone present and remote are in support of it.

An MC - at the Oscars, doing the comedy bit he was hired to do - does not get charged with "making fun of celebrities"; he's doing what he's there to do: roast celebrities. Everyone present and remote are in support of it.

 

[Melbourne Guy]

Or was Will Smith laughing at Chris Rock trying so hard, but failing to fabricate something to say that might be funny. I still don't see any joke. The fact that a one legged actor might play the part of a pirate is not funny for the one legged actor. Calling it a joke is simply an excuse to laugh at someones disability or medical problem.

The definition of assault varies with time and place. I can see how, in a litigious environment, any contact might be considered assault. It is certainly PC to argue that line at the moment. Trolls are scavengers and so will turn everything inside out in their search for something to be enraged about. Meanwhile to survive in the real world one needs to carry a big stick, and refrain from using it. For some, the big stick is a lawyer, for others it is a gun. To see what the real world is like, just watch TV from the USA.

@Baluncore, you seem to regard Smith's action as permissible, and that aspect I cannot fathom. Chris Rock is a comedian. Maybe a poor one who made a comment that was not funny, but how does that justify physical abuse? Nothing to do with a 'litigious environment' or 'PC' or even 'trolls' (not sure where that came from!), in these specific circumstances it was legally noted as battery by the police.

But consider if Smith's 'big stick' was the gun you've noted some people carry. If he used that instead of his hand, would you agree he was right to shoot Chris Rock? If not, what policy determines the difference?

 

[Baluncore]

If not, what policy determines the difference?

The degree of injury.

 

[DaveC426913]

The definition of assault varies with time and place. I can see how, in a litigious environment, any contact might be considered assault. It is certainly PC to argue that line at the moment.

There is no time and place where a long-armed slap/punch - delivered deliberately and with wrath, to someone neither expecting nor or welcoming it - is not considered textbook assault and battery.

...to survive in the real world one needs to carry a big stick, and refrain from using it...

Without being glib: the Oscars are not the real world.
It's not as if the Smiths were caught in an alley, with Rock brandishing a knife.

For cryin' out loud, Smith had to cross a half a football field in front of a million viewers to "defend her"*.

*how this helped anything I have no idea.

The journey Will undertook was certainly sufficient to give Will's brain and words time enough to switch on.